No Israel in Expansion Pack?

Greek Stud said:
(1) They introduced monotheism to Western Civilization and are the basis to Christianity and Islam. The old testament is the most accurate historical document of the ancient world where we discover the Hittites mentioned as the "Hethites" a descendent of Jewish heritage. The old testament also maps out the ancient world which has led to the discovery of countless other accounts and civilizations.
(2) They built the Pyramids of Egypt and the Temple of Solomon.
(3) They introduced consepts of Laws bestowed on the habits of diet and lifestyle. Different than just social taboos, Jewish law was introduced to the Egyptians and Greeks for health and hygiene. The Jews considered it a crime to kill a newborn infant which in those times was obsurd not to kill weak children.



Joshua, successor to Moses, led successive campaigns against the Canaanite kings. King Jabin (Javin) was defeated in northern Galilee by the 12th century BC. Deborah was the first Jewish woman judge, had Joshua act against Barak which the Israelites were victorious over.

After defeating the land of Canaan, the Hebrews receive a new name: "Israelites." The first leaders of the Israelites are the Prophets, the most uniform Israelite figure that united the various tribes.

In Samuel's day, the most formidable enemies were the Philistines (almost certainly the "peoples of the sea" according to Egyptian documents). The Sea Peoples may have well been from the Minoan Civilization of Crete. The Philistines held the coastal mountainous strip from what is today Gaza Strip to Jaffa. In one battle, the Philistines captured the Ark of the Covenant from the Israelites. Joshua use to carry the Ark in battle. It allegedly brought the Philistines nothing but harm. Their chief god, Dagon, portrayed as an image fell flat before the Ark when it was brought into town. The Israelite victory at Mizpeh gave Samuel the Ark.

The Golden Age was represented at the time of David and Solomon. David chosen by Samuel, was the first embodiment of the Messianic concept in Judiasm: one of his descendats would return to save the Jews in their hour of need.

Jerusalem and its eastern suburb Zion were inhabited by the Jebusites of the Canaanites before David's conquest. It features a natural defensible mountain stronghold but was also the neutral area between the northern and southern 12 Tribes of Israel. A sort of "federal district" shared between the tribes.

Solomon forged alliances with King Hiram of Phoenicia. He had thousands of wives and great dealings with his neighbors whom like the Queen of Sheba paid their respects to him in his land.

The fall of Israel began when King Omri gave his son Ahab for marriage to Jezebel, the daughter of the king of Tyre. Tiglath-Pileser III, the Assyrian king, captured both Babylon and in 10 years Israel at Samaria. Under King Josiah, the kingdom of Judah was spared from Assyria for not helping Israel. Josiah revived Judiasm more than David and Solomon combined. He renovated the Great Temple found the manuscripts to the "five books of Moses" or "the book of the Law" the first written version of the book of Deuteronomy.

BC 2000 Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob settled in the land of Canaan in Egypt. Shechem, Succoth, Luz (Bethel), Ai, Ephrath, Mamre, Hebron, Gerar and Beersheba encompased the beginning Jewish settlements.
BC 1800-1500 Jewish settlements in the land of Goshen (or Lower Egypt), Jews build the Egyptian cities Raamses and Pithom through forced labor.
BC 513 Independent Jewish Kingdom of Mahoza led by Mar Zutra set up in Persia where he and his father were crucified by the Persians.



The Ancient Israelites traded gold, silver, ivory, apes and peacocks with Arabia, eastern Africa and India trade routes. They inherited terrace farming techniques from the Lycians and traded goods with far stretching regions including the Trojans, Phrygians, Hittites, Mitanni, Assyrians, Medians, Persians, Babylonians, Abyssinians, Phoenicians, Greeks, and Egyptians.
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I have much more information, but this should be a great start.
A good quote ... up to a certain point. That the Hebrews and/or any other conquered people/vassel state built the pyramids is not based upon the factual archaeological record. The pyramids were built by the citizens of Khemet (e.g. Egypt) during the fallow periods between harvests when a sizable part of the population could be utilized for state organized projects such as pyramid building. Yes I agree that Israel should be included; as well as Ethiopia, Babylon, Persia and the Assyrians. But unfortunately I have been a veteran of these e-mail campaigns in the past, and I have found that Firaxis essentially chooses the expansion civs long before any e-mail campaigns concerning inclusion of various civs even begins.
 
The expansion is called "Warlords" and focuses on great military leaders and nations that were famous for their military capacity or conquests (Vikings, Hannibal, Ramses II, Ottomans, etc.) Israel doesn't fit this profile.
 
Greek Stud said:
The Jews considered it a crime to kill a newborn infant which in those times was obsurd not to kill weak children.

Jeez, thanks for over-population, we need more weaklings sucking up resources :p
 
Please don't go there...in fact I implore you to edit your post, to not have any arguments in this thread because of you.
 
I know this much...

At the start of WWI most Jewish people live in Europe under very oppressive conditions. During WWI something important happened with regards to the formation of Israel: British soldiers occupied the region known as Palestine, which was previously controlled by the Ottoman Turks.

After the war, the League of Nations selected the British as the overseers of the region. They promptly set-up the British Mandate of Palestine. Gradually, the population of Jewish persons in the region began to grow (before WWI, the Palestine region was roughly 10% Jewish). The growth of Jewish migration to the Palestine Mandate was largely driven by the persecution of European Jews.

Then came WWII, and all that horror and holocaust. Throughout the war, and even for sometime after, the British refused to allow Jews into the Mandate. This occurred for several reasons. Firstly, Jewish radicals assassinated a British diplomat, but more importantly the Arab countries, spear headed by Egypt and the Saudis, were oppossed to allowing further Jewish immigration.

Nevertheless, in 1947 or 48 the UN stepped in and proposed a plan that called for the partition of the Mandate. This proposal, along with Jewish terrorism against the British, convinced the British to withdraw from the region.

The plan that was eventually adopted was similar to the Partition plan, with slightly more land going to the Jews than the Arabs. This sparked a series of wars, with the Arab countries aligning against the newly-formed state of Israel, which had backing in terms of money and weapons from the US and UK. The Israeli's wiped the floor.

That is, more or less, how Israel came to look like it does today.

As it is, I see both sides here...
1. If some rich guy from a couple streets over came to my house,and occupied my yard, and then gave away half of it to my sworn enemy, I'd be quite angry. Most likely I would swear revenge on the rich guy as well as my sworn enemy.
2. On the other hand, if some rich guy is giving away land I've been trying to get for a long time, I'm not going to turn it down. And once I'm there, you sure as hell better believe that I will defend it.

Sorry, felt compelled to post my feelings...
 
Mon Mauler said:
As it is, I see both sides here...
1. If some rich guy from a couple streets over came to my house,and occupied my yard, and then gave away half of it to my sworn enemy, I'd be quite angry. Most likely I would swear revenge on the rich guy as well as my sworn enemy.
2. On the other hand, if some rich guy is giving away land I've been trying to get for a long time, I'm not going to turn it down. And once I'm there, you sure as hell better believe that I will defend it.

Sorry, felt compelled to post my feelings...

A very well thought out post. I do have one comment.

I've always compared the scenario more to...a Bully preventing the student from going to his locker.

Complaining to the teachers, trying to attack the bully only made it worse. Then one day, after Bully War 2. (and technically a century before the conflict), the student took it upon himself to finally get his locker back once and for all, hoping this new liberalism will let him have it and not being forced to share his locker with others who have bigger lockers then him, in exchange for whatever.

He goes back only to see that one of the bullys lackeys, still claiming it, just because the bully gave it to him, and also to find out that lackey messed up his locker.

So whats the student do? He tries to be nice, tries to clean up the locker and split it with him...and instead he gets attacked, just because they still hate him.

That is a simplifed version of the events. The lackey only defending it, just because it was given to him. Even though he has countless other locks that he could choose from.
 
Complaining to the teachers, trying to attack the bully only made it worse. Then one day, after Bully War 2. (and technically a century before the conflict), the student took it upon himself to finally get his locker back once and for all, hoping this new liberalism will let him have it and not being forced to share his locker with others who have bigger lockers then him, in exchange for whatever.
i would say more like a 40 year old man returning to his high school and trying to take back his old locker.
 
yeah, or a several thousand year old man ~ why not just resettle all the goths and huns back into central asia ~ that was THEIR ancient homeland, too. I know america is itching to resettle the natives back onto Long Island
 
naterator said:
i would say more like a 40 year old man returning to his high school and trying to take back his old locker.

a 40 year old man? Dude...then what is China & Japan? Students who kept getting hanged back due to bad marks?!

Me thinks, you need to choose your wording more wisely.

pholkhero said:
yeah, or a several thousand year old man ~ why not just resettle all the goths and huns back into central asia ~ that was THEIR ancient homeland, too. I know america is itching to resettle the natives back onto Long Island

1. Err...i'm sorry to say this. But Goths & Huns are no more. Dead men have no claims. Only their descendants do, Hungary, Germany etc. I'm sure is fine for them.

2. I don't get the American thing...
 
Xineoph said:
a 40 year old man? Dude...then what is China & Japan? Students who kept getting hanged back due to bad marks?!

Me thinks, you need to choose your wording more wisely.



1. Err...i'm sorry to say this. But Goths & Huns are no more. Dead men have no claims. Only their descendants do, Hungary, Germany etc. I'm sure is fine for them.

2. I don't get the American thing...

The american argument is still valid. Before the Americas were colonized thier were tribes of native americans here.

So in an essense if the state of israel has a right to exist should we just give back all the land in the western hemisphere to native american tribes?
 
Your choice, i'm not getting involved in that discussion. All i know is that Israel belongs to the Israelis. We have nowhere else to go, and the Palestinians have many arab countries to go to.

Anyways this is off topic.
 
a 40 year old man? Dude...then what is China & Japan? Students who kept getting hanged back due to bad marks?!
i was merely twisting an oversimplification around to fling it back at it's owner.

edit:
and the Palestinians have many arab countries to go to.
yes, but palestine was THEIR country, they're not iraqi or iranian, that's like saying that the jews have plenty of monotheistic countries to go to, it's not the same. it's ok to feel like god's on your side, but not to apply that logic to international diplomacy. (and yes, i realize both sides are equally guilty of this)
 
Xineoph said:
Your choice, i'm not getting involved in that discussion. All i know is that Israel belongs to the Israelis. We have nowhere else to go, and the Palestinians have many arab countries to go to.

Anyways this is off topic.

You could of stayed in the countries you existed in after WW2. After all isnt that when everyone felt the most sentimental towards jews after the horrors of the concentration camps were uncovered?

After dividing up germany so this wouldnt happen again there was no reason to create a jewish state. It was uneeded.
 
After dividing up germany so this wouldnt happen again there was no reason to create a jewish state
or simply to carve off a huge chunk of germany for a jewish state. not feasable now, of course, but at the time it would have been probably the most fair thing. not to involve a country whose only offense was owning land that thousands of years ago , someone else owned , and now they've come back for it.

edit:
and the Palestinians have many arab countries to go to.
i'm sorry, i just can't let this go... especially from someone who suggests i choose my words more carefully, the ringing ignorance of this statement can not be ignored! if the previous owners of your house came one day and forcibly evicted you, citing that "you had plenty of family to stay with", you'd probably demand a right of return too. the fact that people who complain that they "simply want to return home", by bulldozing the homes that currently stand there and forcing the exodus of another people is a blazing hypocrasy.
 
naterator said:
i was merely twisting an oversimplification around to fling it back at it's owner.

ah. too bad it didn't work.

naterator said:
yes, but palestine was THEIR country, they're not iraqi or iranian, that's like saying that the jews have plenty of monotheistic countries to go to, it's not the same. it's ok to feel like god's on your side, but not to apply that logic to international diplomacy. (and yes, i realize both sides are equally guilty of this)

Iraq is a new country in case you forgot...show me Iraq before the 20th century. You won't find it. They were just Arabs...the Palestinians are as arab as the Syrians, Jordanians, Saudis etc.

Only Egypt has a real claim to not being full Arabs, because of their ancient heritage, but that only goes so far nowadays.

Xanikk999 said:
You could of stayed in the countries you existed in after WW2. After all isnt that when everyone felt the most sentimental towards jews after the horrors of the concentration camps were uncovered?

After dividing up germany so this wouldnt happen again there was no reason to create a jewish state. It was uneeded.

Yes, because staying in the countries that tried to kill us, or turned us over, is such a smart idea. And making a country next to them is even smarter. Now we can just huddle up right beside them, so they don't have to chase us all over Europe. ^-^
 
ah. too bad it didn't work.
i thought it did the job quite nicely.

Only Egypt has a real claim to not being full Arabs, because of their ancient heritage, but that only goes so far nowadays
that depends on your definition of an arab. alot of countries speak arabian, i speak english, i am not an englishman. the arabian peninsula doesn't include alot of the "arab world". most kurds don't consider themselves arab either, so the term arab is subjective, and essentially meaningless.
and if you think the germans were going to gear up for another holocaust had there been jews to kill, well there are still jews in germany today, right? and nobody's killing them, right? it most certainly would have created the same ill will and hostility we see in palestine today, but at least germany in 1945 deserved it. palestine, after the dismantling of the ottoman empire, has been nothing but a pawn in a game it really has nothing to do with, except as i stated, they lived in the wrong place in the wrong time. you're logic is drastically incomplete on all fronts. how do you justify the removal of an entire nation from it's roots? i see you chose not to address that part of my post.
 
Why bother arguing with these jews. it won't get you anywhere, they are too ignorant and arogant.

No Israel in EXPANSION!!!! Noone cares!

if they were, Traits would = greed and arrogance and they wouldnt have any friends in the world.
 
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