No Modding Tools, Please!

[Afforess]

Sure. So I'll use the same argument as you, with as much ground, proof, etc. It takes a lot more than 15 minutes to learn xml. Voilà. You based your claim upon nothing. You gave anecdotal evidence that you had made a website about learning it in 15 minutes, but it's anecdotal, so it's not useful. I could of course point you towards books about xml which you can't read in 15 minutes, but you wouldn't mind.
Personally, I think xml is extremely simple, but I know some people don't. I have some teaching experience, by the way. I doubt you have any given your age.
It's also pretty easy to make mistakes when editing xml files, particularly when they are as ridiculously big as those of Civ IV (all those mandatory fields that are never filled with any value so they only bloat the file to no avail).

You apparently don't grasp the concept of anecdotal evidence. When I said "You can learn how to mod XML in 15 minutes" that was claim, not anecdotal evidence. I wasn't saying I learned in 15 minutes, I was saying anyone could.

Thanks for playing though.

 

[Takhisis]

Yakk... why not just make a terrain editor (allows for placing of units, cities, etc. but not the editing of them) and leave the rest to XML scripts?

 

[The_J]

Firaxis, I urge you to ignore the shortsighted requests for advanced modding editors and the like. They are trivial and unimportant. Creating them will take valuable time away from actually improving Civ5's features.

We don't need a good map editor, the worldbuilder in Civ4 was fine.

Like said, not trivial, and improving the world builder to become a real modding tool would not be so difficult. In fact, i guess, we could mod it.
Would just need some more buttons, one to add a mod, another one, which reads the stats out of the buildings/units/whatever files, and if you've changed something there, automatically copies the right files to the mod folder and changes the values.
Could even be done for adding new graphics, i think.
For the guys, who've wrote the WB, this would be quite simple, for sure.

As I said, where is the source of your confirmation of XML, Python and SDK?

Just wondering if you seriously think, that they will not use XML...

I learned programming by modding Civ4, not the other way around.

Yes, but we know, what you're studying .
If you look around in the mods section and look, who's modding, you'll sure see, that every mod with own python or SDK changes has somebody with a computer engineering degree, a student, who's studying this, or somebody else who's already been capable of programming before.

All of the lines and cross referencing to make sure that file is edited so this will work and such. Give me a simple, user friendly editor any day of the week.

Also with a editor you'd have to check the cross references .

 

[cephalo]

In my opinion, you can't compare modding Civ3 to Civ4. If they wanna release tools, they might be useful but we still need access to everything possible up to and including source code. For a glaring example, without source code you can't mod the AI! I wanna mod the AI. I'm certain there will be no tool for that!

Anything less than source code will be a step backwards from Civ4.

 

[MeteorPunch]

I'm just here to throw rotten fruit at the OP.

continue.

 

[SJSerio]

Thank you Yakk. Making a huge suite of tools like that would take FOREVER! I'm glad someone else sees the light.

He "sees the light", yet, like you, he is still left in the dark. One of the points that I keep making that you keep failing to grasp is that Firaxis is a full time company and the people assigned to do such a thing (which would not be the entire Civ V team... but likely 2 or 3 people) are getting paid for a 40 (maybe more) hour work week to work on it. Not to mention that Firaxis has the resources and access to the entire code (including the engine) of the game.

 

[cyther]

I learned civ4 modding myself. In August of 2008 I opened my C:/ folder to install a mapscript and got a warning from windows that I shouldn't touch anything in there. By the end of November, I was able to release a mod that had extensive edits to XML and a few modifications to python.


When I first bought civ4, I thought that we would have an high-level GUI editor and it took over two years of playing the game to figure out how to actually mod on my own without one. I would say that the experience of modding civ taught me everything I know about coding and I would also say that I know a decent amount of stuff. If there had been a powerful modding tool, I may not know these things but then again I might know even more.

I would simply ask that the ciV team gives us what they used to make the game but provide a modding program later (maybe in a patch) for the people who don't already know how to mod.

 

[phungus420]

Most people browsing this probably think Afforess is just an ass. The issue he isn't explaining effectively is that there is a strong correlation between pre made modding tools, and the developers hardcoding things in the program to make those tools work correctly. There is a very real possibility with civ5 we will get a souped up civ3 editor with no real ability to do in depth or concept modding.

As I said before though, they really should take the time to build a robust scenario editor. That would actually be worth it. Perhaps an easy to use unit editor may also be a good idea for the masses, but I worry about things like this causing the devs to lock out more interesting modding possibilities as often happens when they create ease of use tools for mass consumption.

 

[Afforess]

Most people browsing this probably think Afforess is just an ass.

I think my chief character flaw is apathy. I don't care what people think about me. I appreciate the defense though.

The issue he isn't explaining effectively is that there is a strong correlation between pre made modding tools, and the developers hardcoding things in the program to make those tools work correctly. There is a very real possibility with civ5 we will get a souped up civ3 editor with no real ability to do in depth or concept modding.

As I said before though, they really should take the time to build a robust scenario editor. That would actually be worth it. Perhaps an easy to use unit editor may also be a good idea for the masses, but I worry about things like this causing the devs to lock out more interesting modding possibilities as often happens when they create ease of use tools for mass consumption.

Exactly. As I pointed out several times, look at Spore. It bills itself as a "uniquely customizable game", but really it just has a very simple creator editor, with no real modding to speak of. There is a very strong correlation between GUI, user-friendly "modding" tools and locked down platforms.

 

[Chazcon]

Firaxis, I urge you to ignore the shortsighted requests of the original poster. He is trivial and unimportant. Listening to him will take valuable time away from actually improving Civ5's features.

 

[Afforess]

Firaxis, I urge you to ignore the shortsighted requests of the original poster. He is trivial and unimportant. Listening to him will take valuable time away from actually improving Civ5's features.

Please discuss the topic; off topic posts about individuals is against the rules.

 

[CivFanaticMan]

I like the idea of having better modding tools come along with the game. If Fraxis has a chance to make modding in Civ5 any easier then i think they should have it included in this game. I support modding (i think we all do) even though i don't have the knowledge or time to do any modding in civ besides adding units into the game. I am happy to see Fraxis is still supporting of modding. I am looking forward to seeing the interesting mods civ fanatics create for the new game when it comes out.

 

[Takhisis]

Hmmm. The editor would be something for us noobs who don't know programming and as our jobs, studies, family lives, or whatever else, stop us from learning it, so that we can do some basic modding at least.

 

[LDiCesare]

I wasn't saying I learned in 15 minutes, I was saying anyone could.

Thanks for playing though.

You don't grasp the concept of logic then
You say anyone can learn, I said I know someone who couldn't, so there's at least one person who can't, so your anyone is wrong, but you dismiss it nonetheless. I may of course not grasp the difference between anyone and everyone, not being a native English speaker but I think you're just ignoring arguments that prove you wrong.

 

[Chazcon]

Hmmm. The editor would be something for us noobs who don't know programming and as our jobs, studies, family lives, or whatever else, stop us from learning it, so that we can do some basic modding at least.

How about BOTH mod tools AND release of SDK?

In the words of Jean-Claude Van Damme, "That way everyone is happy."

 

[Afforess]

How about BOTH mod tools AND release of SDK?

In the words of Jean-Claude Van Damme, "That way everyone is happy."

If they do both, it takes time away from Civ5's development. There is an opportunity cost for every decision they make.

 

[EdCase]

Most people browsing this probably think Afforess is just an ass. The issue he isn't explaining effectively is that there is a strong correlation between pre made modding tools, and the developers hardcoding things in the program to make those tools work correctly. There is a very real possibility with civ5 we will get a souped up civ3 editor with no real ability to do in depth or concept modding.

As I said before though, they really should take the time to build a robust scenario editor. That would actually be worth it. Perhaps an easy to use unit editor may also be a good idea for the masses, but I worry about things like this causing the devs to lock out more interesting modding possibilities as often happens when they create ease of use tools for mass consumption.

I'll take the contrary position here. There has been in the past a strong correlation between premade editors and everything being hardcoded (been gaming a loooong time).
However in the last few years development teams that make a feature/sales pitch from "moddability" will generally give you the tools AND expose the code.
Dawn of War 1 was the classic example of developer tools combined with wide open file formats. Civ IV fell short on the premade tools (partially due to licensing restrictions).
If I read correctly, and I believe I do, the OP is basically asking for the development tools (as that's what editors are generally..refined (or sometimes not) development tools) because he doesn't want HIS mod to be lost in the crowd.
I have been known to mod (mostly gave up 7 or 8 years ago). Modelling, animation and skinning is generally my thing,if you've played SFCII, DOW, UT2004, Oblivion more recently Fallout 3 you may even have used some of my models. Though I am familiar with xml and python amongst others.
Was intending to mod 4. Found it tedious however so didn't bother.
Just realised I started with lightwave on an Amiga and 3DSMax DOS in 1990, been modding longer than the OP has been alive.

Damn I'm old

 

[SJSerio]

Hmmm. The editor would be something for us noobs who don't know programming and as our jobs, studies, family lives, or whatever else, stop us from learning it, so that we can do some basic modding at least.

Yeah, I've made that argument too, but Afforess does not care about that... he must be afraid of the competition... that someone like you or me would put something out that would bury his hard-coded, extravegant, too many features mod in the database.

He constantly points toward Spore, which is for personal creations... not modding, as a comparison to Civ. He thinks that, for some reason, releasing official GUI based tools will cripple the moddibility of the game, despite the countless examples of "locked down" games that have some pretty drastic mods.

Dale and I spent a long time last night proving him wrong over and over, yet he still insists that modding tools would be the worst thing to ever happen to Civilization. It has become a pointless debate because he obviously doesn't care about what any body else has to say.

 

[Takhisis]

How about BOTH mod tools AND release of SDK?

In the words of Jean-Claude Van Damme, "That way everyone is happy."

Quoting from previous posts:

Spoiler :

There wasn't SDK in pre-civ4 games and we got to do a lot. I'd actually like a map editor and then edit the XML files for tiles, units, etc. You can always get XML editors online. There's a few on sourceforge, try them out and choose one.
For civ3, there wasn't any unitmaker program. So? FLICster appeared. Reverse engineering. All that is really required is the source code (Afforess is right) and -PLEASE- a world editor. But extra tools would always be nice. As long as they aren't the only tols that are usable .

What would be common sense would be to incorporate the best features of civ 3 (e.g. better leaderheads, terrain editor) and 4 (e.g. SDK, Python/XML scripting and editing) and SMAC.

Yakk... why not just make a terrain editor (allows for placing of units, cities, etc. but not the editing of them) and leave the rest to XML scripts?

So, basically... yes!!! Make both of them non-exclusive. You can edit from an editor or tweak the XMLs with Notepad. how 'bout that?

 

[Bowsling]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you Civilization 3 as my evidence. I rest my case.

I object.