No more World Congress

[Battlehelm043]

Well today has been very uplifting and quite frankly has given me a lot more to expect from Civ 6... With all this talk about rich diplomacy I feel a bit sad that they yanked the world congress out. I feel improving civ to civ relations but dismissing the global interface is a major step backwards from what we had diplomatically. I'm curious to see how the game will feel now with little diplomatic breadth in it.

I'm an international politics major... I mean I live for the global political landscape, so now I while I am happy to see that the game looks great and has great potential; I once again feel like politics got watered down heavily, at least until the next expansion...

 

[ShahJahanII]

I haven't seen anything about them removing the World Congress, do you have a link?

 

[Battlehelm043]

http://www.gamecrate.com/hands-civi...osevelt-ditches-workers-and-feels-great/13642

For some reason I can't place a picture in here from a screenshot I have taken, but if you read the last paragraphs of this interview found on the forum splash you'll find this gem...

"The nice thing is we’ve taken almost everything where Brave New World left off. Almost everything, I think the World Congress is the only thing we left behind. We wanted to have a really solid foundation for a starting point this time. We didn’t want players to come in and say 'We were just playing with religion, and now we don’t get religion!' That’s not a good feeling."

 

[AriochIV]

If ordinary diplomacy between civilization works well, there is not much need for the artifice of a World Congress.

In real history, the various failed incarnations of the "world congress" had very little actual impact on the affairs of nations.

 

[Battlehelm043]

True but I think the resolution system gave diplomacy a deeper feel to it. For example those who would decide to warmonger would or could get reigned in by the global community. Obviously this is extremely limited to the later stages of the game. Like I said in the original post and from what I read, it seems this has been yanked out for a later date. I guess we will need to see when the game comes out.

 

[stealth_nsk]

World Congress in Civ5 and Civ4 was quite exploitable system. I'm ok with it removed.

 

[AriochIV]

True but I think the resolution system gave diplomacy a deeper feel to it. For example those who would decide to warmonger would or could get reigned in by the global community. Obviously this is extremely limited to the later stages of the game.

The Civ V diplomacy system was so thin that ANYTHING would have given it a deeper feel.

I think it's also worth nothing that this is pretty much the only feature from Civ V BNW that was left out of vanilla Civ VI. I think that's pretty impressive and a significant change from previous titles. As you say, they have to leave something for future expansions, so perhaps we'll see some variant of the World Congress as part of an expansion.

 

[Thormodr]

Glad to hear it. It looked annoying to play with.

Diplomacy is looking fairly good so I don't think it will be missed.

 

[Aristos]

If that is a fact, it is NOT good. No.

Why would they do such thing, when they are claiming the diplo system is better and richer, I have no idea... if there is some explanation that could be rationalized, such as "we cannot make it to the release date with a balanced, functioning World Congress, and the release date is important to us, but we promise we will add it in the first expansion", or something like that, you know, honest and upfront.

I hope it's just a misunderstanding.

EDIT: and contrary to initial majority opinion, some sort of global diplomatic institution enriches the game IF well executed. The very same WC of BNW that some don't like, works marvels when properly modified: check CBP out and you will see what I mean.

 

[dexters]

If ordinary diplomacy between civilization works well, there is not much need for the artifice of a World Congress.

In real history, the various failed incarnations of the "world congress" had very little actual impact on the affairs of nations.

I tend to agree.

Though I think they should keep elements of it. There could be a Civ driven mechanism where they mutually agree to work on a project, embargo someone, or go to war together, and the like. IT can evolve into something as deep as the G7 or Five Is or it could remain a loose coalition issuing fairly benign agreements (except maybe if you're on the other end of that embargo) until the next expansion.

That would be what a real bloc system looks like. We'll see.

 

[Battlehelm043]

My chief concern is mainly that they stated early on that they removed a victory condition from the game... I am hoping that it is not diplomacy, but I have a bad feeling the diplomacy victory got the ugly ax.... AS for the late game mechanics of blocs, this would make them severely less effective and take away from having an ideology or similar government to another civ... What I really hope they didn't do is dump the diplo victory...

 

[stealth_nsk]

There could be a Civ driven mechanism where they mutually agree to work on a project, embargo someone, or go to war together, and the like. IT can evolve into something as deep as the G7 or Five Is or it could remain a loose coalition issuing fairly benign agreements (except maybe if you're on the other end of that embargo) until the next expansion.

That would be what a real bloc system looks like. We'll see.

Yes, more agreements are good. What wasn't good in World Congress is its restrictive nature. Like you could push standing army tax and hurt warmongers, etc. It was bad itself, but together with BNW focus on peaceful and tall empires, the World Congress manipulations benefited them even more.

 

[dexters]

My chief concern is mainly that they stated early on that they removed a victory condition from the game... I am hoping that it is not diplomacy, but I have a bad feeling the diplomacy victory got the ugly ax.... AS for the late game mechanics of blocs, this would make them severely less effective and take away from having an ideology or similar government to another civ... What I really hope they didn't do is dump the diplo victory...

They're not going to unbalance the game by making all the VCs hard to get.
Diplomatic victory has been a bit of an anachronism since it's inception in Civ3.

We don't know enough about the city-state mechanic to know what Diplomatic victory gets replaced with, but the world congress removal is another nail in that coffin.

I had predicted Diplo was going to go away as soon as they announced they are taking one VC away. Could still be wrong, they may simply keep most of the same mechanics in Civ5 city-state votes and call it 'hegemonic victory' or some such.

On a related note, Ed Beach almost let out a big secret concerning City States in this video

Link to video. starts at 2:30

I'm guessing City-States 'give' diplomatic related items.

 

[Battlehelm043]

They're not going to unbalance the game by making all the VCs hard to get.
Diplomatic victory has been a bit of an anachronism since it's inception in Civ3.

We don't know enough about the city-state mechanic to know what Diplomatic victory gets replaced with, but the world congress removal is another nail in that coffin.

I had predicted Diplo was going to go away as soon as they announced they are taking one VC away. Could still be wrong, they may simply keep most of the same mechanics in Civ5 city-state votes and call it 'hegemonic victory' or some such.

Doubtful, especially if they removed a Diplomatic victory as a whole. If the diplo victory is indeed gone then becoming a CS ally is only for benefits and boosts; which are not entirely bad but it does mean that you could in a sense largely ignore the CS's as a whole and not worry.

I will miss being able to damage a civs economy with embargo, when I'm behind and by hurting their economics claw my way to victory.

 

[Aristos]

They're not going to unbalance the game by making all the VCs hard to get.
Diplomatic victory has been a bit of an anachronism since it's inception in Civ3.

We don't know enough about the city-state mechanic to know what Diplomatic victory gets replaced with, but the world congress removal is another nail in that coffin.

I had predicted Diplo was going to go away as soon as they announced they are taking one VC away. Could still be wrong, they may simply keep most of the same mechanics in Civ5 city-state votes and call it 'hegemonic victory' or some such.

... and your prediction will be wrong. There is no way they will remove Diplo VC, when in fact they are trying to reinforce the late game's "flow towards global peace", as stated by Ed in the first interview. They will change it, for sure, but not dump it. You'll see. (you are close, so we can bet a nice Alex Keith round, if you want... I like the Pale Ale ).

 

[kaspergm]

Diplo victory in Civ5 was ridiculously broken, so if they've taken away World Congress (and diplo victory) for vanilla release, I'm not very upset by that. It's certainly a feature I can live perfectly without in early game. They can always refine it and bring it back in expansions.

 

[Heinage]

If Civ IV and V are anything to go by, the United Nations will probably be added with an expansion pack. It's always a great opportunity for them to add a significant feature like the UN as an expansion to the base game, when they want to breath new life info Civ VI and promote it again.

I think that there's potential to make the UN even more interesting in Civ VI what with the diplo changes they're bringing.
For example, the justified war/cassus belli system. I can imagine they will change the nuclear non-proliferation treaty so rather than stopping Civs outright from building nukes (which doesn't work in real life), instead anybody who violates this treaty gets a specific cassus belli against them. I.e. teddy can now declare a justified war (reason: UN treaty violation) on cleo because spies have uncovered that she is still building nuclear weapons, despite a UN treaty banning it.

Now that'd be cool

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[Aristos]

If Civ IV and V are anything to go by, the United Nations will probably be added with an expansion pack. It's always a great opportunity for them to add a significant feature like the UN as an expansion to the base game, when they want to breath new life info Civ VI and promote it again.

I think that there's potential to make the UN even more interesting in Civ VI what with the diplo changes they're bringing.
For example, the justified war/cassus belli system. I can imagine they will change the nuclear non-proliferation treaty so rather than stopping Civs outright from building nukes (which doesn't work in real life), instead anybody who violates this treaty gets a specific cassus belli against them. I.e. teddy can now declare a justified war (reason: UN treaty violation) on cleo because spies have uncovered that she is still building nuclear weapons, despite a UN treaty banning it.

Now that'd be cool

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Super cool, and exactly my point. If that is what they are planning, I just would like them to be straight forward about it, that's all. Say it, some will be pissed off, most will accept it and commend Firaxis for being upfront. Just say it.

 

[Battlehelm043]

If Civ IV and V are anything to go by, the United Nations will probably be added with an expansion pack. It's always a great opportunity for them to add a significant feature like the UN as an expansion to the base game, when they want to breath new life info Civ VI and promote it again.

I think that there's potential to make the UN even more interesting in Civ VI what with the diplo changes they're bringing.
For example, the justified war/cassus belli system. I can imagine they will change the nuclear non-proliferation treaty so rather than stopping Civs outright from building nukes (which doesn't work in real life), instead anybody who violates this treaty gets a specific cassus belli against them. I.e. teddy can now declare a justified war (reason: UN treaty violation) on cleo because spies have uncovered that she is still building nuclear weapons, despite a UN treaty banning it.

Now that'd be cool

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This would be pretty legit, I think if the Diplomacy works better in this game than CiV BNW and the expansion had this in it to enhance the diplo game I'd be stoked! I am just gun shy cause they preached all these great diplo options for CiV vanilla and then it was barely even fleshed out....

 

[Felis Renidens]

I like the world congress in CiV but don't mind waiting for an expansion for it. Especially if they change the diplomatic system. Better to wait and see how it works out with all those agendas and progression and the envoys to city-states.

Diplomatic victory on the other hand is something I can live without, in III it was a gamble, in IV (Vanilla, at least) a matter of having more population than the others, and in V having enough gold to buy all the city-states.