No more World Congress

[Lord Tirian]

World congress was a heap of exploits and absolutely useless staff.

Part of the reason is that in Civ5, the WC finally gained some semblance of usefulness by integrating it with the spy system and the ability to trade for votes with other civs (doubly so with the community patch which expanded greatly on the WC). I agree that it was abusable, but that's something that can be fixed, especially if the underlying diplomacy system is improved.

Furthermore, it actually gives Civs a non-military way to wield power. Trade embargoes or stifling science victories through economic vote manipulation adds variety to the endgame which all too often devolves into a "beat down AI" routine. It keeps the modern era fresh and unique.

However, I think it has to be done correctly and certainly deserves an expansion of its own - and I'd love to see the world congress not as a "thing" but a mechanic, meaning that alliances can form a congress and that there are multiple opportunities to do so with varying membership.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Part of the reason is that in Civ5, the WC finally gained some semblance of usefulness by integrating it with the spy system and the ability to trade for votes with other civs (doubly so with the community patch which expanded greatly on the WC). I agree that it was abusable, but that's something that can be fixed, especially if the underlying diplomacy system is improved.

I don't think it's fixable. The real world diplomacy rests on huge net of agreements, laws, etc. with hundreds of parties involved. In game like Civ the number of parties are limited and underlying mechanics is a way simplified just because you can't have all these millions of documents in game. In real world making significant amount of governments to issue embargo another civs is a real feat of diplomacy, requiring a lot of work. In game it can't be more complex than just a trade.

Furthermore, it actually gives Civs a non-military way to wield power. Trade embargoes or stifling science victories through economic vote manipulation adds variety to the endgame which all too often devolves into a "beat down AI" routine. It keeps the modern era fresh and unique.

There are a lot of bob-military ways to wield power, like religion or culture, that's what non-military victories are for.

However, I think it has to be done correctly and certainly deserves an expansion of its own - and I'd love to see the world congress not as a "thing" but a mechanic, meaning that alliances can form a congress and that there are multiple opportunities to do so with varying membership.

This way it has very high chances to become a game by itself, mostly independent from the main course of the game. The WC of Civ5 was already halfway to it.

 

[isau]

I disagree about the World Congress/UN in past games being useless in past games. The UN was always a threat, it meant you had to keep up in the votes game or risk getting seriously hosed in the later game. I really liked the threat the UN posed and how a civ could push other civs around. In Civ V, Alexander posed a serious threat as the game progressed because of his tendency to shore up all the city states on his side.

The actual Diplo victory condition wasn't great, but that was mainly because of how city state influence worked, rewarding immediate cash dumps instead of gradual investments over long periods of time.

 

[AriochIV]

World Congress was a kludge to cover the fact that Civ V had essentially no meaningful diplomacy. Hopefully it will not be needed in Civ VI.

 

[OnceAKing]

They are poised to have a feature rich vanilla release. I wouldn't mind them removing Congress if they can install a diplomacy that doesn't hinge on cascading denouncements and frendships whose only function is backstabbing.

If they removed it only to reintroduce it bigger and better like Religion, I'd be all for it. They've Showered us with a game that will almost be as deep as BNW out the gate so it's a fair trade.

 

[Stringer1313]

I like the concept of World Congress greatly, but I just haven't seen a way that it's been implemented well, largely because it is impossible to have a civ like you so much that it actually votes the way you want them to. You have to buy your votes. Civ 5 did come close though.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

World Congress was a kludge to cover the fact that Civ V had essentially no meaningful diplomacy. Hopefully it will not be needed in Civ VI.

Civ never had meaningful diplomacy, simply because it is not possible with an AI, and it is barely possible with another gameplaying human.

World Congress was a step in the right direction in that Diplomacy was a mechanism to influence other civs and it affected all civs (not just AIs)

I like the concept of World Congress greatly, but I just haven't seen a way that it's been implemented well, largely because it is impossible to have a civ like you so much that it actually votes the way you want them to. You have to buy your votes. Civ 5 did come close though.

You didn't always have to buy votes, you could affect them in other ways.... Civs avoided banning a resource they had, or embargoing someone they traded with. (ie civs voted their interests, just like you....although they weren't the best at knowing their interests)

 

[AriochIV]

Civ never had meaningful diplomacy, simply because it is not possible with an AI, and it is barely possible with another gameplaying human.

That's pure nonsense. Plenty of other games (including Civ IV) have had fun and meaningful diplomacy.

What was fun about the World Congress? Did you enjoy having the other civs constantly trying to ban your luxury resources? Beyond the World Fair and the like (which was basically a gift for the player), it was more an annoyance than a benefit.

 

[redwings1340]

I think they're completely overhauling late game diplomacy, so even if there's no world congress, I have a feeling they're replacing it with something else. We really know nothing about the late game right now, and I want to see how it looks like before I make judgements over the lack of a congress.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That's pure nonsense. Plenty of other games (including Civ IV) have had fun and meaningful diplomacy.

What was fun about the World Congress? Did you enjoy having the other civs constantly trying to ban your luxury resources? Beyond the World Fair and the like (which was basically a gift for the player), it was more an annoyance than a benefit.

Civ IV didn't have fun AND meaningful diplomacy*, (unless you mean the AI behavior machine/Tech ATM)

*I will throw in an exception for the permanent alliances, those made for meaningful diplomacy because you could actually win together. (although the AI handled it as well as it handled any game system, which is ..meh)

I enjoy other civs trying to ban my luxury resources as much as I enjoy them stealing my wonders, trying to take my cities, or encouraging my citizens to rebel against their glorious leader.(ie its a challenge in the game)

 

[stealth_nsk]

That's pure nonsense. Plenty of other games (including Civ IV) have had fun and meaningful diplomacy.

In Civ4 you were able to fully control AI decision through diplomacy. But even after disabling obvious exploits like tech trading, I wouldn't call Civ4 diplomacy meaningful or fun.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make fun diplomacy with AI, but it's really a very complex task and I can't name any success in it.

 

[AriochIV]

The diplomacy in Civ IV was certainly "meaningful" -- your actions had a significant impact on whether another civ would be friend or foe (unlike Civ V), and you could make alliances and even acquire vassals. The vassal system was imperfect and had some wonky edge cases, but I think you'd have to say it was meaningful to the outcome of a game.

Fun is subjective, but I had a lot of fun with the diplomatic interactions in Civ IV. The different leaders behaved significantly differently... Hatshepsut could be reliably befriended, Alex was just waiting for the right moment to attack you, and Isabella was just crazy.

 

[Callonia]

World Congress was either..

Controlled by Greece.

Controlled by gunboat diplomacy civs.

Controlled by ones with deep pockets.

I kept world congress in while disabling diplomacy victory cuz it was too easy to achieve.

I haven't seen AIs really fight over for the control of a city state other than using spies to coup.

Eliminating a city state to reduce the powerful runaway civ's voting power isn't really exercised because because AI don't do it. Only mongolia and huns does it.

World Congress is a device that doesn't work very well because AIs pay attention to their flavor and not wage a diplomatic battle for survival.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

World Congress is a device that doesn't work very well because AIs pay attention to their flavor and not wage a diplomatic battle for survivalvictory.

Fixed, if AIs were programmed to play the game then diplomacy mechanics like the World Congress that involve other civs would work well.

The problem is flavor is part of the AI and not a mechanic (in which case their flavor Would be playing the game)

 

[toft]

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[nokmirt]

Well today has been very uplifting and quite frankly has given me a lot more to expect from Civ 6... With all this talk about rich diplomacy I feel a bit sad that they yanked the world congress out. I feel improving civ to civ relations but dismissing the global interface is a major step backwards from what we had diplomatically. I'm curious to see how the game will feel now with little diplomatic breadth in it.

I'm an international politics major... I mean I live for the global political landscape, so now I while I am happy to see that the game looks great and has great potential; I once again feel like politics got watered down heavily, at least until the next expansion...

I did not care for the World Congress. To me it was too powerful. A richer diplomacy system will work far better. You can have alliances against a warmonger, for instance. Or, a coalition of civs can embargo your trade, things like that. It will do a better job of keeping world factions split into differing alliances, for one reason or another, making for more interesting and in depth gameplay. The decisions you make will have a greater impact than they would have civ 5 where the WC was just too absolute about delivering penalties. IMO this was its shortcoming.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

There is one interesting point....
He said they removed the world congress...
He did not say they removed the UN.

Since diplomacy gets 'more formal' as time goes on, perhaps they just moved it back from Renaissance to Modern/Atomic Era.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The diplomacy in Civ IV was certainly "meaningful" -- your actions had a significant impact on whether another civ would be friend or foe (unlike Civ V), and you could make alliances and even acquire vassals. The vassal system was imperfect and had some wonky edge cases, but I think you'd have to say it was meaningful to the outcome of a game.

Fun is subjective, but I had a lot of fun with the diplomatic interactions in Civ IV. The different leaders behaved significantly differently... Hatshepsut could be reliably befriended, Alex was just waiting for the right moment to attack you, and Isabella was just crazy.

Yes, different leaders behave differently, but you were able to trade with them to get appropriate results. And those interactions each turn to trade techs/maps were just boring.

I'd say diplomacy in Civ4 was surely playable and meaningful. On the other hand it was often boring and immersion-breaking as I failed to consider those bribe-driven AI as a real opponents. The last part is subjective, but as far as I know, that's the concern shared by many players.

 

[darkace77450]

It sounds like they're going to add the World Congress at some later (presumably in an expansion). Beach says at 2:40 in the new Eurogamer interview, "there's one system that we're not putting into play right away, which is the World Congress system."

 

[Amrunril]

I'm a little disappointed to see the world congress disappearing, but can't really complain, as Civ VI already seems to have far more content than any past vanilla civ release. And if the developers want to take out mechanic and do a really good job of reworking and improving it for an expansion (like religion in Civ V), the World Congress and Diplomatic Victory seem like an excellent choice.