Noble Help

[hotstuffjsn]

Hey everyone. I'm a regular that visits the forums and mostly just reads articles. I've noticed most of you all play at Prince and higher. My problem is I cannot even meet a victory on Noble. I normally find myself near the end of the game with about a 100 turns left before finally I go to a major war with the AI normally which is stronger then me, has more technology, and basically comes over and starts razing or taking my cities. There's no chance usually for me to prevail because I just don't have military units that are strong enough to push back the invaders. At this point I usually restart another game and hope for a better outcome...I must be doing something wrong...I thought about lowering the difficulty level, but didn't want to seem like I couldn't keep up with everyone else. I think what my issue may be is not knowing how to manage specialists and worker improvements to specialize my cities so they keep up. I normally automate my workers because I screw up my terrain if I do it lol Should I also be managing my citizen workers inside to work the right things?

I posted my save and wish someone experienced would look at it and give me any feedback. The only way i'll know what i'm doing wrong is if you guys tell me, so I would appreciate any criticism!!

 

[mnf]

Can't open your savegame because I don't have Warlords.

But I used to have the same problem as you did. What got me to win on Noble was doing two things: firstly, manually controlling the workers and either learn how to use specialists, or go try out cottage spamming. I went the cottage route because it was simpler and more straight-forward.

The second was tech trading. Trade, trade and trade. Keep an eye on the technology trading screen and don't let opportunities slip by. You can easily trade yourself back up to tech parity up to mid-game, I think, before the "we're afraid you'll get too strong" effect kicks in.

As for messing up worker actions, you'll just need to start counting the food. Have a look at this article: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=158482

 

[Sisiutil]

I spotted a few things right off the bat. Your number one problem is too few cities. 5 cities is just not enough to keep up, especially when the AI--to use Genghis as an example, since he's kicking your sorry butt right now--has twice that many without even counting those he must have hiding in the fog. With more cities, resources, territory, and population, the AI can easily out-tech you, and you have been sorely out-teched in this game. It's 1958 and you still don't have Gunpowder!?!?

What's particularly shocking is that you have American cities on your southern border--which only could have been founded there post-Astronomy. How the heck did that happen? Did you just raze Korean cities in an earlier war without keeping any or resettling the area? Why didn't you expand into that space long before Roosevelt even knew it existed? And why did you keep Wang Kon alive? (didn't you wipe out Ragnar?) I applaud the decision to war with him, but all you seem to have achieved was weakening a single rival without gaining much for yourself.

I also can't fathom some of your builds, especially since you're at war. The Hermitage? Why? You don't have even a remote chance at a cultural victory, and Camulodunum is not in a cultural border fight. And the Kremlin? Again, why? In fact, why the heck did you bee-line to Communism and neglect techs like Gunpowder, Chemistry, Rifling, and so on?

I'd theorize that you have a severe case of builder addiction, but for the fact that you only managed to build one wonder and not a very useful one. Your cities are well-placed--what few you have. You need more of them, which you should have gained from the earlier war(s) on your continent. In fact, that entire continent should have been Celtic long ago. Then Genghis would be reluctant to attack a much more powerful, or at least evenly-matched opponent.

 

[Civman123]

I really think your save game isn't that bad except for the fact that you don't really have a chance to win the game. In order to do more digging can you post a earlier save game. If this was 30-40 turns earlier I would have played it out but it isn't. I would start a new game and aim for victory earlier. Finally don't hesitate to look at Sisiutil's ALC games and guides in the strategy articles section.

 

[mice]

The good news is that you have a great journey ahead learning this game.First thing I noticed is that you are cottage spamming well. The happiness in your cities was OK until Emancipation hit. This hits when the other civs have emancipation and you dont, so get to Democracy at some stage to switch to Emancipation or have your happiness resources/civics/buildings in place. See Cabert's happiness article for this happiness

Sisiutil's right about the land to the south. This should be yours. Miami and Houston are good sites. You can tell by al lthe grassland (good for cottages) and rivers,(good for farms to feed the city,watermills, health) and the food resources(cities need a food resource or two). When you see these things, think about grabbing them with a settler or by force.

You destroyed Ragnar and chiselled back Korea, so you know how to war. I would suggest to do it early, and hard and be ruthless. You should have this continent to yourself by now (the AI will always settle a few annoying cites on the tundra coast,that's OK)The city sites you did pick are good. No worries there.

Re. tech, get the military techs you need sooner than later, and attack with better units than the AI.

Late war is hard and tedious. Some people like it but generally spaeaking, it is much easier to take out a civ early on and then build your way to a win in the late game(space race, diplomatic,domination).

It takes practise to balance expansion, through settling and aggression, with your economy building. Read the ALC games, and pay particular attention to advice on when to go to war and how to carry it out.

With practise you''ll learn what you can afford to do (expansion costs gold) and when.

Another idea, load up a game at Noble playing as a philosphical leade, and try to mimic what Acidsatyr did with his game.Acidsatyrs game
It's a rollicking ride through the use of Great people to lightbulb techs and then use this advantage to stomp on the AI. Try it.

 

[hotstuffjsn]

Ragnar was took a bit to take out, but i didn't like him near me. I tried a diff strategy and just razed his cities for the fun of it. I figured 5 or so cities would have been enough for a small map? The koreans I just decided to war with, by the time I reached his last two cities he had rifleman to my knight and i had to stop because i had been at war the entire game and was seriously behind in my economy that my culture slider as at like 70%. sooo basically I got stuck and then ghengis came out of nowhere and I basically didn't have a chance haha I'm going to start a new game and just try to manage my cities with specialization and stuff. BTW, how do I know how many cities I need to play balanced on the different size maps? Also should I be keeping all the cities I take over? or just raze them?

 

[bippukt]

I also currently play on noble (vanilla Civ 1.61) but am ready to move on to prince. I dont raze a city unless I am having to pay too much maintainence for the number of cities or the cities are located badly. Otherwise I keep it. The only other reason I will ever raze a city is if its that of my mortal enemy and I have no hope of keeping it or retaking it later. Razing it then weaken my enemy even if doesn't give me any other benefit.
BTW, I generally try to keep my relations with one of the AI civs as good as I can. I basically give them anything I can whenever they demand it, even if its extremely unfair. When I get communism or Fascism, I just make a permanent alliance and the game is then assuredly mine. You could try it as well.

 

[Sisiutil]

Were your forces mainly consisting of Knights when you fought Korea? They're good units, but not the best for taking cities. That would explain why the war with him took so long. In the medieval era, your offensive units should mainly consist of Trebuchets and Macemen with City Raider promotions. Knights are best used for pillaging, stack defense, and mop-up operations. You want the war to go as quickly as possible, otherwise war weariness will drag down your economy, as it seemed to here.

As for "how many cities"--there's no hard and fast number. At your playing level, even though you obviously have some of the basics down, I would still stick to the "60% rule". Found or capture cities until research is at 60% in order to still be earning some gold per turn (GPT). Then consolidate--end a war if you're waging one (try to get at least one tech or a hefty amount of gold for peace), build units that help you financially such as courthouses, markets, grocers, banks, and so on. Once you're able to push the research slider above 60%, it's time to expand again--through force if necessary, which is very likely.

I was probably a little harsh in my previous post. As others have said, you do have a lot of the basics down, such as city placement and the use of cottages. I'd also suggest you have a look through the articles in the War Academy to refine your game and enjoy it even more.

 

[hotstuffjsn]

I've been reading a lot on here, and I should probably take a look into some war strategies to maximize my potential war campaign. I do appreciate all the feedback as I implies I still have things to learn In either case, I did use pretty much all knights lol I did have some macemen though...The trebuchets seemed useless? They have a low strength compared to the knight.

The thing about my cities, is that I can never seem to reap enough benefits to really give myself gold and enough research to stay competitive. I usually have few cities and my last game I just quit I expanded so fast I kind of crippled myself down to like 50% in no time. I went to war right off with Russia but couldn't take a city without any siege weapons...hmm

I'm going to look for some more articles on here to see if I can beef my game up!

Oh yes, I had a question about trading techs...how does everyone do it? I actually beelined for alphabet near the begining to trade with Russia in my last game. At this point I was missing a few lower techs and though he'd love some of mine, WRONG. He had like 4 to trade but he wouldn't...I'll have to look into improving my relations with civs, but at that point we had open borders and there wasn't anything else I could do. So I just went to war lol

 

[cabert]

Maybe you're the one guy that is waging war even worse than the AI?
I can't open the save right now (if I could, I would be playing, right?), but from that last post i'm worried you didn't understand:
- cultural defence
- collateral damage.
Why would you need more siege units?
Because you don't want to face a bonus when you can avoid it. Bomb the city defense down to 0 before attacking (it's not a hard rule, but it's usually the best way), and because if you attack with a siege unit, you hit the defender you face and injure a few (up to 6, if i'm not mistaken) other defenders.
After a trebuchet or a catapult, even if it doesn't win, a knight will have a much easier job, facing already injured units.

If you didn't do this, you really need to read a bit about combat.

What promotions do you give to your units?

edit : about tech trading, you need to have decent realtions to those whith whom you want to trade. Depending on the leader, it's from annoyed (Mansa Musa will trade even if annoyed) to friendly (tokugawa will only trade if friendly).
You also need to know enough leaders to make the trades worthwhile.
Be aware that the AIs don't trade if they don't know enough (2) trade partners.
Be ready to get ripped off, since you always get the smallest part of the deal. But you still benefit more from bad deals than from no deals.
My usual trade strategy is to prevent good deals between AIs.
If civ A know tech 1, and civ B knows tech 2, you're better off trading even for a low price with one of those 2 and give civ A tech 2. It's one less trade between AIs.
If you don't civ A will trade tech 1 to civ B and civ B will trade tech 2 to civ A. In this situation you gain nothing and they double their tech rate...

 

[pigswill]

Looking quickly at the turnlog you settled four cities by 400bc then basically stopped expanding. 4 cities by 400bc is fine but should have gone for a second expansion around the time you got currency and CoL; either peacefully or by war. Once you restored your economy (i.e. breaking even at say 60% research) its time to expand again unless you're going for culture.
If you don't expand then you don't have the resources, hammers and commerce to compete.

 

[bippukt]

Looking quickly at the turnlog you settled four cities by 400bc then basically stopped expanding. 4 cities by 400bc is fine but should have gone for a second expansion around the time you got currency and CoL; either peacefully or by war. Once you restored your economy (i.e. breaking even at say 60% research) its time to expand again unless you're going for culture.

Unless you turn lucky. In my last game, I was able to keep my tech rate at 100% well into the ADs. Even now, at 1600 AD+, my tech rate is 80% and I am getting 140 GPT into the treasury evry turn. Changing from free trade to state property increased my income by nearly 100 . And the best part (or the worst part, depending on how you view it) is that I forgot to put adequate cottages earlier on. But having 3 religious shrines brings in tons of gold . I only wish that I had such a good luck all the time. Of course, I am only playing on noble, so that is nothing to brag about

 

[Sisiutil]

In either case, I did use pretty much all knights lol I did have some macemen though...The trebuchets seemed useless? They have a low strength compared to the knight.

Read the fine print. Trebuchets get a 100% bonus when attacking cities; they inflict collateral damage on units other than the one they're attacking; and they can receive City Raider promotions, which the Knights cannot. Don't judge a unit just based on its strength rating.

The thing about my cities, is that I can never seem to reap enough benefits to really give myself gold and enough research to stay competitive. I usually have few cities and my last game I just quit I expanded so fast I kind of crippled myself down to like 50% in no time. I went to war right off with Russia but couldn't take a city without any siege weapons...hmm

50% research early in the game isn't so bad. As has been pointed out on the board several times, 10 cities running at 50% research will probably produce more research points than 3 cities running at 100%.

You need to play in cycles of expansion followed by consolidation. You expand and either found or capture cities, which will increase your maintenance costs and force you to lower the research slider. Then you consolidate by putting buildings in place that either reduce costs (courthouses) or increase revenue (banks, markets, grocers). You also improve and work tiles that bring in revenue--cottages, of course, but also resources like gold, silver, gems, dye, silk, wine, and so on. You can also trade excess resources to other civs in exchange for resources you lack or for gold per turn (GPT). Finally, while you need to stay strong militarily to avoid getting attacked, as you expand your territory you can move or delete units from your core cities and focus on strengthening your border and coastal cities. Military units cost maintenance, so while you need to be strong, you don't want to overdo it.

As you do this your revenues will increase, you'll be able to push the slider back up... indicating it's time to engage in another round of expansion.

Oh yes, I had a question about trading techs...how does everyone do it? I actually beelined for alphabet near the begining to trade with Russia in my last game. At this point I was missing a few lower techs and though he'd love some of mine, WRONG. He had like 4 to trade but he wouldn't...I'll have to look into improving my relations with civs, but at that point we had open borders and there wasn't anything else I could do. So I just went to war lol

Others have already commented on this. The only thing I'll add is to remember that war is a great way to get a recalcitrant civ to cough up techs. They'll do this even if they only have contact with one civ (you). If you're in a long, drawn-out war, go talk to the opposing leader periodically and see if he's willing to give you a juicy tech in exchange for 10 turns of peace.

 

[bassist2119]

An idea for the forum...

There have been quite a few posts of this nature, where new and inexperienced players have described difficulties and veterans describe modes of correction. However, much like describing a "pop-pop-pop" to an automobile mechanic, the symptom is often misunderstood by the master and the correction by the student.
How about this: GOTM it: A disheartened player uploads a relatively early save, say around 1000 BC (or more helpfully 1AD). The "master panel" then plays out what is left, and uploads a series of saves, say every 40 turns or so, upon completion
This would give the more experienced members here a fun competition, with great bragging rights of course. And actually seeing how one's civ went from broken-down to fully restored and conquering would be an unparalleled learning experience for those needing help.

 

[Cam_H]

Bassist2119,

I think that was the general idea behind the 'trash game' series;

Fix the Trash Game
Fix Another Trash Game

I think there's room for another like it if there's sufficient interest. I assume that "veteran" isn't a synonym for "flawless".

 

[bassist2119]

I assume that "veteran" isn't a synonym for "flawless".

Veteran merely implicating anyone who feels like responding with advice.

 

[Cam_H]

Veteran merely implicating anyone who feels like responding with advice.

On the internet, no one can hear you scream!

(There's plenty of bad advice - thankfully lots more good advice)

 

[cabert]

Bassist, did you read through cam's links?

It was indeed the purpose (+ having fun of course) of those threads to bring disheartened players into fast learning mode.
I'm really proud of our "inexperienced" players, who won with our help first a prince domination, then a very challenging monarch space race.
Special dedicace to VuDu who didn't let go, when she had a really hard time to compete.
I'm quite sure most of the "inexperienced" players who played those games learned a lot. And I'm totally sure I learned a lot .

Edit : If there are enough disheartened players to start another game, I'll participate of course.

 

[Cam_H]

Cabert's quite right!

Mice went from a nervous Prince-level player into a confident-Monarch level player after these two games, and VuDu should well and truly be 'punching above' her previous level now.

It was a terrific exercise, and it was great to have Pigswill and Cabert help everyone along (and Armstrong was great ... albeit transitory ).