Nobles' Club 183: Mansa Musa of Mali

[bdubbs]

Re-retry T61

Spoiler :

Screw Julius, I rushed him and took Rome 2T ago. Razed the city he settled towards me, and unless it's in an amazing spot I will probably raze his final city unless it's in a great spot because it's so far away. From what I can tell the French have no metals, might try and take them out as well if I can get my skirmishers back over to his area in time. From there It's a matter of building up all the land which should hopefully lead to a win.

 

[sampsa]

@bdubbs

Spoiler :

Nice, I guess you got your revenge. Something I was going to comment to @Gumbolt too, I wouldn't really want to use my forces to raze cities... I mean, it's a bad deal to risk losing some units while getting very little in return. For me, not being able to keep cities kind of signifies that the strategy itself (rushing) was not optimal. Maybe you could take what you really want, sue peace, and come back later? If they are left with only weak cities, their and -outputs are so weak that they are harmless.

There are other AIs out there that might have cities that you want. When there are 7 competitors in the game and you make a choice to effectively eliminate one contestant but if doing so also slows down yourself, all the other 5 benefit from your choice.

 

[sampsa]

1400AD

Spoiler :

So first I bribed them to attack, now I bribed them both to make peace so that I get all the loot. Got rep parts, sci meth and economics too by trading steel around to my buddies.



Once more the war was a huge success, HC might have had a stack before but my war dogs had decimated it and I just walked into his core with a rather small army and took everything. No real counter attacks, just a few annoying frigates pillaging my seafood. My heroic skirmisher was beating his cannon-softened cuirassiers.

Stalin goes WHEOORN, the target could be anyone but me.



Drafted rifles and finally cuirs+cavs are joining the party. I have been at 0% research since beginning of the war. but no biggie. Surely can catch up with these cities.



Barely any losses, not many kills either. If I'm doing something right in this game it's picking the right victims. Only ~20 drafts, couldn't do more as emancipation unhappiness is kicking in. HE-city (pig+corn+sugar+gold+workshops) is spamming cavs from now on, one almost every turn.



Like 12 turns after I set my foot on HC's soil, he has been pushed out of the mainland. Didn't know deity wars can be this easy sometimes. Tried to make peace now actually, as HC has monopoly on communism and (the useless) divine right, but he refuses to give communism for peace. He'd capitulate obviously, but I'm not interested in that, for diplo reasons.

I am building a canal to get my ships to the west. Guess I'll get him down to 1 city and kill almost everything he has, see if he gives communism then.

SB goes WHEOORN. I think it's on HC, as he shouldn't have the power to declare on anyone else?!



Trade screen not too bad, if I only could get communism to trade around.



I think the game is more or less won now, just still need to win it. I guess just going military is one way, but I have zero experience in modern warfare and it might be a slog. Or I can blow it. I do have GA and GE (!) sitting in my capital. Maybe winning diplo is easier? Also I think I owe it to Julius and Stalin not to kill them.

Save attached. BUFFY-mod.

 

[Fippy]

HC doing the same as in Lain's game lol, all those techs but no Rifling or Grens
Would be nice if you can get some of those, maybe peace when he has just 1 city left if he offers enuf?

 

[Lain]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

You could put 1-2 turns of research into Communism yourself, HC would be more likely to give the tech after that. You did a great job on that war. I didn't have much time to check your earlier save and make useful comments, but it looks like you were in a tough spot. Earlier wars went a bit unlucky with Washington et al., but nobody took HC from you this time .

What now? I mean, you can probably win space. I don't know much about that approach. If I can win space, I might aswell win domination. Not being afraid of modern warfare. Due to my playstyle (and map choice, since continent or isolation games can't be swiped with just cuirs... usually) I end up with Artillery, Tanks and Bombers more often than not. It's always quite messy. But also rewarding when you manage to take out a 20-city-deity-monster at tech parity... in an era when their bonuses are at their highest.

I would consider two approaches in your position:

a) bee-line Mass Media and gift it to Washington or Sitting Bull. Farm everything and grow your cities. JC and Stalin should vote for you, if needed you could switch them back into religion and/or favorite civics. I am pretty sure you can get there first.

b) Go for the military win. Sitting Bull + Stalin should be enough. Sitting Bull is easy and Stalin, well... Infantry/Artillery should be good enough. And rather familiar to play with, just a beefed up version of your cannon war really. Key is to acknowledge how Railroads and Aircraft change the dynamic of the war though. One wrong step into their territory and your SoD will just be gone. I mean this is always true to some extent, but it becomes even more unforgiving. So soak up his offensive units in your own territory before moving into flatland just like that.

After that it's not a big deal though. You can pump out enough units to take down anything. You might want two stacks since the AI will likely focus all their airships on "one side" and your secondary army could move way quicker without being bombed.

You are almost even in tech so that should work nicely. If you were at a bigger disadvantage I would go for Tanks+Marine (defense vs Gunships and Anti-Tanks) +Fighters+Bombers. That would work even against Modern Armor and anything while being more elegant. Fighters, then Bombers and mop up. Takes a bit more time to set up but after your aircraft is ready and the first city falls it plays a lot like cavalry with mobile siege. Fighters bomb city culture (+distract his aircraft), Bombers do the collateral and tanks finish the job at good odds. Works like a charm, especially when the main SoD is down.

I never saw a need to go further down the tech tree. Maybe once or twice every 100 deity games. The different unit choices are kind of overwhelming and it's a slog, sure, but also fun in its own way.
__
As you can probably tell from the details, I would go for b). Or try a) and if you fail on that, make a transition to b). Until then your cities should be set up and you would want to have Radio anyway (for Bombers), so it's not a big deal. Still early and Stalin / JC are not known to climb the tech tree too quickly.

But because I do stuff like this almost every game, I feel a bit burned out right now. Going to build up energy. My dream is to win 100 deity games in a row, going with first maprolls. Then I can claim to have a 100% win ratio and retire .

Anyway, hope it helps a bit. Looking forward to see the option you choose .

 

[bdubbs]

@sampsa

it might just be that I'm still learning emp difficulty and don't know the pros and cons of different strategy like the long time vets but I feel like razing cities in general is something I've seen talked about commonly in the past. While I agree there is a significant opportunity cost (100 hammers + however many extra turns to settle the new city versus the time it would have pacified, + any buildings that would have been retained in the capture + any pop size) I would rather raze it and move on if I feel like I'll be able to settle 2 stronger cities by relocating it or if I feel like the city would be much better in another spot, the maintenance costs would be very high, and I feel like I'm not as risk of losing the location to another civ.

to T81 800 B.C.

Spoiler :

I lost 3 skirmishers to a barb city that formed near the city I razed between my cap and Rome. Incidentally they settled on a better tile and grew to size 2 so at least I was able to claim a city out of it. I don't love the spot but there's several riverside grass for cottages. I'm currently parked outside French borders with 6 skirmishers, with another 6 a few turns away. I have a chance to DoW this turn and kill a French chariot, archer, and settler that is right next to my stack. It will also put my stack in position to attack the closest city the following turn, which is currently only defended by 1 archer.

The dilemma: I really want Paris, it's a great city and has the GLH which would be a huge benefit. I really don't want any of the other French cities though and it's not like I can just go take over Paris and leave his other cities, and if I raze them ultimately I'll just be giving another civ room to grow bigger because I still have 3-4 cities in the east that need to get placed eventually.

There are 2 more concerning factors. The first is that settler appears to be going north, which means it's likely to claim the fish spot I wanted if I don't DoW, the second is I have this army already built, and I'm confident I can take 3/4 French cities easily including Paris, and if I can do that and leave the French nothing but a weak city then they should theoretically not be a threat. I'm also concerned about maintenance costs, in the past I've had difficulty recovering an economy after a large B.C. conquest.

Edit to T90 625 B.C. and getting some screens

Spoiler :

I felt I had already committed to taking out the French and had the ability so I went for it. I have captured 2 workers, and decided to see how things would play out if I razed the border city and tried to get a settler to the spot that got the gold. Unfortunately Stalin had a settler ready to go and settled on the bananas and marble instead about 4 turns later.

Spoiler :

Paris was captured this turn and France has 2 cities remaining. We have this city to the south

Spoiler :

Hopefully there's some food there, that city will be necessary from keeping Russia from pushing further.

And then there's Rheims, a little coastal city that could steal a crab off Paris and provide some extra commerce.

Spoiler :

I had started a settler in my capital to try and take the spot next to the Russians, but I want to try and claim this spot before somebody else beats me to it.

Spoiler :

France doesn't have alpha so I have no incentive to make peace, and it seems like the plan is to grab up those last 2 cities and try and recover my economy and fill in the rest of my land for now. Getting alpha and currency would help.

 

[sampsa]

Thanks Lain, that was a very educational post. I have played on to 1515AD

Spoiler :

Not the best turn set. Got communism for peace, but not much out it in trades. Dogs attacked SB, I joined, took two cities, but before he even talks to me he caps to JC.

Started a golden age, accidentally with GA+GE Was supposed to use that engineer to rush UN. Still undecided on how to win. I think you (Lain) meant gifting just the tech (Mass Media) to the AI who I want to build it. Rushing it and gifting the city was my idea, but that is out of the window now.

I am contemplating on running 100% slider for a while to steal at least electricity from JC. Got them nice -buildings from HC and have two Scotland Yards. Spies get caught and cause diplo demerits though, so maybe it's just a bad idea. Need to sleep over it. Bombers sound more fun...

 

[Gumbolt]

Nice to see I stirred some debate here.

Spoiler [USER=77792]@sampsa[/USER] and bdubbs :

I never planned to play this as a builder/economy developing game. With marble and a peaceful start you probably could of teched to lib easily. Financial civ's are great for that. I can probably still reach lib first on my game. Albeit Russians are teching fast.

Agreed taking those final 1-2 cities to raze may have been a mistake. That being said both of those cities were connected to metal. Albeit I could not see the Iron when I razed it. I suspected iron as the Ai would never settle such a weak city. The fish/copper site would of seen him build metal units. The reality is I wanted that city site myself hence why i razed it. Very strong site but requires a border pop.

Leaving JC alive with iron and copper did not seem wise. At that point I had no metals at all. Losing 3-4 skirmishers for 100 hammers was not great. Albeit the capture gold was very useful.

As for this crashed economy? It really wasn't that bad. GLH really helped out. I also had 2 gold resources and a number of strong coastal commerce tiles. My biggest issue was getting border pops.

I did declare on the French and built more Skirmishers. They are down to 1 city now. Captured their big city and razed their border city with Incans to get the horse back. Lost 2 skirmisher but got gold back to match that. Maths and poly plus gold for peace. Could of kept the city for it's trade routes but was risky with Incans now in war mode. I have 7-8 skirmishers if they come for me.Will be me or Sittingbull. I do have a nice stack of Skirmishers to hold them off. See which way he goes.

Will upload save after I have played on a bit.

 

[sampsa]

@bdubbs

Spoiler :

Yeah I guess my main catch was that I've seen people capture and raze cities when I don't think it's beneficial at all. But sometimes you got to do what you got to do, I don't mean city razing as something you should never do.

@Gumbolt

Spoiler :

I knew you must have had some reason for your choices. Hard to say without seeing the specifics, but razing them final cities might indeed have saved you from some trouble later.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Sampsa -

Spoiler :

It also saves unhappiness from 'we yearn to join our motherland'. I may not have planned all the suggestions above but JC becoming a vassel would of been annoying too.

Leaving that French city was probably a mistake too but it's very weak and has no improved tiles.

Overall I am close to 1ad and I have 12 cities. Downside is others will be much further ahead techwise compared to me. I have 4 Ai to vassel and I may try using phants. Need to get Russians to trade ivory.

 

[pigswill]

Still trying for early space victory on noble marathon. restarted several times, here's my latest attempt:

Spoiler :

Started agric, hunting, archery, masonry, skirmisher rushed Jules and De Gaulle, chopped Gwall and SH in Paris by 2000bc.

The limit to rex is of course economic not material, its easy to build rush units and/or settlers but economy tends to crash very early on. I concluded that the solution is to have fewer but bigger cities at the start, main issue is happiness which I solved by Pyramids>Hrule. Once I'd got cities growing I teched construction and stomped Stalin and Washington with cats and skirmishers. Built a few more wonders in between: Glight, Oracle, Colossus, HG, Parthenon, MoM, still building Glib, put Moia in lakeside Persepolis.

Now up to 18 cities, 37% land, got CS and music. Got 2 prophets and a GA, saving them for Goldages when empire has grown more. 197bpt +7gpt.

I'm wondering if its worth beelining democracy for emancipated cottage growth.

 

[Gumbolt]

Would not more cities earlier bring you better science later? Sure you start slower but you should sprint ahead near end? Not looked at save.

 

[bdubbs]

Quick Question in relation to my last post

Spoiler :

It can be seen in my screens I was going to try and grab the pigs/corn/gold in the south. Washington has claimed the corn in the first ring from the looks of it. I'm thinking of dropping in a city to block the north off on the ph in between the sugar and gold. I'd just work the gold until size 1 at calendar. Worth it?

 

[Pangaea]

Update from 720AD.

Spoiler :

Took longer than I hoped to wipe out de Gaulle, which meant Paris shrunk more than it should have. But he's gone now. During that war, Stalin declared on me. Thankfully not a big issue as I had decent amount of units across the frontline anyway, and had access to maces after (rarely for me) self-teching these military techs. A bit bad luck in that Stalin got Longbows + Itza the turn before my assault on St Petersburg, but at the cost of some catas and a suicidal mace, we took it, and the spoils are good



It surprised me, but Stalin actually decided to peace out by giving me Feudalism, HBR, his gold and world map. Maybe just as good considering he has longbows and I'm running low on catas. Besides, this means I can focus more on growth again, and launching a GA with the MoM in hand. Have a GA from Music, and soon a GS for bulbing into Edu.

Julius will surely take a city from HC next turn. He has a 19-unit stack outside a city, walls already bombed down. HC does have longbows, but a bunch of catas will soften them up plenty, and the prats will take care of the rest. I can bribe him off, but then I'm worried Julius will soon set his sights on me, with such a big military, and I'd rather not have to fight him -- not yet.

Oddly enough HC is marching a stack of ancient units through my territory towards Julius instead of trying to defend his city with it.

Overview shot, with the capital in the top right, and Paris top left.


As you can see I'm building NE in the capital. Not ideal, but I've just built GLib there, so it'll be okay I think. Planning to make Paris the HE city, as I don't have any other good production spot. With all that food, I hope it will become a mammoth for the later wars. There were only two cottages, so may leave those, and workshop some of the rest.

Just above the scoreboard you can see I was lucky and popped gold near Gao. Think the mine had only been working for 2-3 turns

Since we peaced out anyway, perhaps it's best to sit back now and wait to clean up with Cuirs (should get control of the horse near Paris). Julius can cause a lot of bother, especially if HC easily caps, but Stalin is no longer a real threat.

 

[sampsa]

@bdubbs

Spoiler :

If you don't have a lot of cities and don't have any better spots left, I think size1 city working gold/silver pays off. A capital like the one we have in this game really want more early to work all those good tiles. Your suggested site will claim sugar and grassland, so it will be a good city long term.

You razing that city with an improved cow is a prime example of what I've been trying to preach. I mean... it's instantly a decent city to pump settlers/workers, units or failgold depending on what you need. Settling a city that has nothing good on the first ring (I assume you wanted 1W of jungled banana) is just slow and weak for a long time.

I also have a tip on city management. In that same screenshot you are slow building a settler in your unhappy capital with a full food bar, probably to cool off another whip. While I can't see all the specifics, you seem to be at size 5 working pigs, 2x mines, 2x lakes. I understand that you want , but you should always try to work your best tiles, and 61 is a real power tile that needs to be worked no matter what imo. I would grow that city now, into more unhappiness and whip the settler later (preferably 3-pop), that way you can work all the food and commerce.

 

[Jarno]

@bdubbs

Spoiler :

I also have a tip on city management. In that same screenshot you are slow building a settler in your unhappy capital with a full food bar, probably to cool off another whip. While I can't see all the specifics, you seem to be at size 5 working pigs, 2x mines, 2x lakes. I understand that you want , but you should always try to work your best tiles, and 61 is a real power tile that needs to be worked no matter what imo. I would grow that city now, into more unhappiness and whip the settler later (preferably 3-pop), that way you can work all the food and commerce.

Also note that when building a settler/worker, unhappy citizens will not consume food. So even while they don't contribute to the progress of the settler, they won't cost you anything. And they can easily be whipped away!

 

[jvdl]

Normal deity

Spoiler 200BC-400AD :

Situation After rush on De Gaulle.

JC, Stalin, Washington and I are Jewish and not a threat. HC (Hindu) and SB (Buddhist) are each other’s worst enemy, so they won’t take it on me. JC and HC will be the power players in this game. DG has one city left squeezed between Stalin and SB, too far to take out with the skirmishers. Paris has Stonehenge but unfortunately no GLH as happened to other players.

The goal for this turn set to grow cities focus on gold and get on tech parity. HC’s culture is stealing my Paris horses, building the Parthenon there with all chops and whips possible. That will get me horses and help generating great people. On sampa’s advice, keep capital Timbuctu (have considered moving it to Paris)

Key events:
T110-125BC: JC joins Stalin in the war on Washington
T115-1AD: Parthenon + Great Library
T122-175AD: 1st GS = Academy
T124-200AD: Switch to caste, running 5-6 scientists in Timbuktu
T127-300AD: 2nd GS = Philosophy
T135-375AD: HC builds apostolic palace, vote for him, he likes me better now
T130-375AD: Broker for end of Washington war with Stalin (CoL+Monarchy) and JC (Philosophy)
T131-400AD: Civil service is in (misquoted this date in an earlier post)

That is very late. Target is to have civil service 1AD or earlier so I’m 16 turns behind target. But there’s still hope. Only HC is way ahead of me, JC is on par and the rest is behind.

Spoiler 400AD-940AD :

The goal for this turn set to win Lib+MT and set up a decent Cuir rush. Target for that is to Dow no later than 900AD with 25+ Cuirs but that’s going to be impossible.

Key events:
T131-400AD: Switch to slavery + bureaucracy + philosophy. Whip NE in Orleans. Start farming up all the grass around that city. Start whipping Moai wonderbread.
T131-580AD: Last whips and switch back to Caste. Running 5 GM in Paris and 6GS in Timbuktu.
T142-640AD: Take out DG losing one horse. Gift his city to Stalin who is now very pleased and gives a fair deal on Feudalism. That’s probably the last deal. The AI fear I’m too advanced.
T145-700AD: Stalin declares war on Washington.
T149-780AD: Bulb Paper+Education in one turn with 3 GS I’ve been saving up. Don’t like to waste a GS on paper but need to rush things. Have been postponing the decision – if a GA or GP would have turned up a golden age would have come in the mix.
T157-940AD: Lib+MT is in with a sixth GS + 1 turn of research. The Paris GM cashes 1500 gold in Cuzco.

There’s now 2000 Gold in the bank. Gun powder is 5T away, leaving enough to upgrade all horses (only 12 running caste has its price) in T162=1020AD.

With some whipping and chopping I could launch 25+ cuirs on or before 1100AD. That may be too little too late for Julius.

The empire 940AD

Washington: IMO this is a good deal:

Stalin: Tempting but won’t take it. HC is the apostle and will stop the war quickly by resolution.

Julius: same here.

Here's a guy you haven't met (sitting bull liberated a colony):

 

[sampsa]

@jvdl

Spoiler :

You winning liberalism @940AD is very surprising to me, as in my game HC won the lib race 300AD (took Divine Right ). That is 30 turns difference.

Where you are now... I guess you have 3 possible targets. Washington's cities are probably too hard to keep due to culture, so it's either Julius, Stalin or HC. I'd try to make war on HC work somehow, as he very likely has the smallest army and probably lots of mature cottages. Declare right after the vote is the way to do it I guess?

Btw at 940AD I was +12 with both Stalin and JC (even without shared war, with those +14 and +15 respectively) so it is very possible to get these guys to friendly for tech trades. +1 years of peace, +2 OB, +4 religion, +4 fair trade, +1 resources. Some minuses for border tension with JC (-2), but it's negated by liberation bonus +1 and you have shared your tech discoveries +1. If fair trade (capped at +4) is all you lack for being friendly, I'm sure you can soon find an old tech to gift them. They both declare at pleased so getting them to friendly is a priority even without lucrative tech trading opportunities. I had them both friendly since 540AD, with the slight help of a phony war (from my side) against SB for shared war bonuses.

 

[sampsa]

@pigswill

Spoiler :

I am certainly not the right person to give advice to someone on marathon space races. However, building wonders like GW and SH feel counter-intuitive to me. Them non-GS -points can be annoying and steer you away from the really important stuff, which imo should be Oxford. That's why I feel your early should be GS's to bulb edu asap.

So where you are now I'd not beeline democracy, but education. You have lots of forests so getting Oxford up in no time should be np. I'd slightly prefer libraries over courthouses in many cities, as those points are not going to be useful here. Not having a lighthouse in Paris seems like a big mistake to me.

 

[jvdl]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Very surprised about the lib date too. HC should be teching but has been plotting on sitting duck the entire game. So he may not be as easy a target as you suggest.

The trade situation:

Julius: +1 peace +5 faith +2 resources + 2 OB -1 tension -1 refuse to help = +8
Stalin: +1 peace +3 faith +1 resources + 2 OB + 4 fair trade -1 tension -2 war on friend -2 refuse to help = +6

Can trade paper to the lot for 640
Or trade for 490 and gift it to Julius for +4 fair trade?