Nobles' Club 183: Mansa Musa of Mali

[pigswill]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Stonhenge+granary=incan terrace.

Being able to ignore barbs is useful. On lower difficulties AIs don't expand that quickly or generate loads of spawnbusting units. On higher difficulties barbs become a problem early on but don't tend to last that long, on noble barbs start later but last until the early ADs.

I'm stockpiling Great People to run multiple golden ages so the flavour of GP isn't that important. Having said that there are several cities that would benefit from academies.

I'm not convinced about Oxford beeline in this set up because its a big investment in hammers which only benefits one city and will add maybe 50-100bpt. On higher difficulties (emperor+) bulbing is an effective strategy because you have a reasonable chance of backfilling techs through trade. This doesn't happen at noble, if you want eg calendar, MC, feudalism etc you have to research them yourself or wait several (up to 100) turns for them to become available in trade.

I think that optimal strategies for higher difficulties aren't always optimal strategies for lower difficulties but I don't know what the optimal strategies are for noble..

 

[sampsa]

@jvdl

Spoiler :

The diplo situation is a bit more dicey in your game than mine. In mine it was really straightforward, the hindu block: me+JC+Stalin+Wash against the world.

I guess you are not giving compass to SB for money (and to GK for free, as master will gift it to vassal anyway so take +4 fair trade now) because of the HC diplo hit. I'd take it anyway I guess, shouldn't push him to annoyed? You are not trying to befriend HC in this game anyway I think.

I wouldn't gift away , well only as a last resort, because giving will hurt your research. I think paper for 150 should give a fair trade bonus. Washington seems so backwards that he won't be very useful - you can trade with Stalin and take diplo hits from him. I'm afraid you won't get Stalin to friendly because of those diplo negs you took, well not before communism at least.

 

[jvdl]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Meant to say: instead of selling paper to everyone for 640, including Julius (150); the alternative is to gift paper to Julius and sell it to the rest for 490. Not giving any money away. But if selling it to JC of 150 is a fair trade already, that's not necessary.

Regarding the diplo, religion looks the same: me+Wash+Stalin+JC against the rest. However, I don't see HC as a big threat (yet).

If I could possibly vassal Julius first with Cuirs, the rest of the pack can be rolled up with Steel+Rifling (and JC's help). If I take HC first, that will be much more difficult.

The evil plan:

• JC's stack is near Seattle (and has been there since forever much so assume that will stay so).
• Main force will take Arpinum and pillage all road acces to it.
• That will stop his stack right on my doorstep and my healed Cuirs will have it for breakfast.
• Meanwhile, a smaller force will take Mediolanum up north just to ensure he doesn't sneak into Djenne
• Once his stack has been consumed march to Cumae (holy shrine), Rome and mop it up.
  
• Taking 9 of his 15 cities should do the trick.

Biggest problem is Stalin. Can bribe him for peace but 10 turns is not enough..

 

[Gumbolt]

Still playing here. Been a distracting few days.

Spoiler 175ad :

French down to 1 city. It has no food resource.

The Incans are attacking Sittingbull. I have a stack of 10-12 skirmishers and 4-5 melee units. Was hoping to get ivory from the Russians but no luck. Can't seem to get them to please. +6 from my efforts. -3 from declare on friend and close borders. Very frustrating.

My plan is to whip 8-9 pults and go to war.
If Russia - His first few cities should be fine with melee. The rest may need catapults.

The alternative plan is to attack Incans. Right now Russians are closer and still lack tech for phants. Russians are the tech leaders here making them a better target.

Economy is fine. +11 gold from zero taxes. Not running wealth at all.

13 cities. I need feudalism is I intend to vassel people here. Americans are pleased with me. Need to get to friendly for a peace vassel. They may be too big already. See what happens. I still lack feudalism and monarchy.

Chain vassel 4 Ai here should not be too hard? The Incan stack only had 6 or so units.

 

[martin.vojtisek]

so cool the noble's club is still running. i havent played for a long time, but i had to try. anyway, played on monarch, better bat ai, no huts not events no tech trading no vassals epic speed.

Spoiler game details :

first attempt i tried to build wonders and get really boxed in by the AIs, i played very sloppy and resigned soon.

second attempt was better, focused on expansion and crashed economy big time. but still managed to get oracle to metal casting. caesar declared on de gaulle, and asked me to join, which i did. i think at the beginning i had to keep at least somebody happy, de gaulle, caesar and stalin around, not really easy...

later stalin declared on washington and i joined to get one city with iron. i burned one city of degaulle and much later with catapults a took capital.

then stalin declared on me, it was long and bloody but eventually i got to rifling. then huyana caesar and stalin declared on me at the same time WFT? with drafted rifles, later cannons and cavalry, i got domination victory 1848AD.

it was fun game, i didnt played very well but it was really fun. the AI mix was quite good. maybe i was lucky caesar attacked de gaulle first because of religion, and stalin was busy with washington, and huyana was fighting with sitting bull quite long so he could not run away with tech. i was actually far ahead in research.

some cities had like 100 turns whip anger
except oracle i didnt get any wonder (well i captured them later), only built ankorwat and sanakore later with stone i capture somewhere. i also built taj mahal, nothing else from the world wonders. de gaulle built a lot and stalin so when i captured paris and moscow, it was nice.

stalin was the biggest warmonger, fighting pretty much nonstop, against washington, then sitting bull and me at the same time.

didnt research fishing early, went for bronzeworking, pottery, masonry and priesthood. maybe fishing early for little bit commerce wasa better? need to read other peoples notes.

it was really fun game, packed with action . thanks

 

[Gumbolt]

450ad

Spoiler update :

Up to 16 cities and 30% of land now. Didn't wait around at Russian cities. Pretty much suicided catapults and attacked. Razed 2 cities and captured 3 others before he capitulated. I have some very wide spread stacks now. More importantly I have my ivory.

Main challenge might be Americans with 9 cities. Incans and Native Americans have 7 and 6 cities. My power rating compared to most Ai is 1.6+. Frustratingly Americans have vasselled the French. Americans have 9 cities.

Will pause to decide how to best take them all on. I don't think any of the Ai have any real stacks. Russians have a 6-7 unit stack but I found this very early on and detsroyed it.

My next plan is stack for America and one for Incans/NA. 2 Prong attack to kill off this game. Only Americans have feudalism.

 

[Pangaea]

Have played further too, to 1250AD. Game not over, but it feels like I'm in control.

Spoiler :

Stalin declared war on me - again - but this time he paid dearly for it, and is now dead. I like to take all cities of the first civ(s) I'm at war with, so I wanted it all rather than capping him (think I got Feud at the later stages of the war). Some very nice cities, including a +19 Shrine. Not bad for normal settings. Then followed Sitting Bull, with only 5 cities (1 brand new). City Guardian III Longbows isn't fun to fight, but thankfully the cities were on flatland, which helps, and I had Cuirs after Libbing MilTrad. Took all his stuff with not too bad losses. A Melee stack with a few Trebs took one city, and the Cuirs took the rest. Their mobility and strength make it a lot faster.

Now it's the mammoth Julius Caesar left. I had ample time to bribe him off HC, but kept dragging my feet and then he capped. Not long after that, Washington peace vassaled. So it's two teams left. Bit of a logistical nightmare, with such long fronts on both sides of my empire. But Cuirs and Cannons will help

It's probably a good thing that his main stack is 'stuck' in a city he captured from HC, on the west side of the map. My army is already there, and once that is wiped, the rest of the war will hopefully be easier. Will need to get up more defence on the east first, and heal up the troops, but won't be too long. Also need to keep an eye on Washington, because he's essentially unhurt from all the wars, and probably has a pretty decent stack somewhere.

This is Julius' lot. I hope they have many taverns in Tiwanaku


Mentioned earlier that I put the National Epic in the capital, and it also made sense to put some late Moai there, so right now it has pretty good production, with modest GPP. Have a GS stored away, and will get the GM from Economics, so can extend the Golden Age with another 12 turns (thanks for MoM, Stalin).


Paris could have become an excellent great people farm with all that food, but I needed a military pump, and Paris made most sense. It's pretty decent, and can easily 1-turn Cuirs or Cannons.


Probably don't need more techs now, but may as well get Repl. Parts and Rifling as well. JC is teching fast, so could well get his own Cuirs in the near future (he only misses MilTrad). Julius is Friendly now btw, because I changed into Hinduism and gave him some good trades. That meant I could get Engineering and Guilds out of him, and that he couldn't wage war on me. Once I declare on him, I may as well go back to Judaism, though, as over half the cities have that, and only about 5 has Hinduism.

Maybe I can finish the game tomorrow.

 

[dutchfire]

Remember the lessons of 1914 and 1940: Strike quickly on the Western front to knock that enemy out of contention. Then you can move your attention east.

The best would be if you could hit Tiwanaku on the second turn of war, and knock out that big stack. Then move to knock out Capac. I'm not sure how the capitulation mechanics work, will he break free from Julius at some point (and cap to you), or do you need to take him out completely?

On the eastern front, mobile stacks of Cuirs should be able to handle anything they can throw at you, especially on flatland and after taking a cannon hit.

Are you really going to build that university and bank? I'd rather have two extra Cuirassiers if you're worried about your eastern front defences.

edit: It might even be worth it to quickly dip into Nationhood and draft musket for your empire defence, if you have enough cities at size 6. I think you definitely want to declare quickly, before they get Military Tradition. Cuirassiers are annoying if you have a lot of cannons and you don't have Cavalry or Riflemen.

 

[jvdl]

Remember the lessons of 1914 and 1940: Strike quickly on the Western front to knock that enemy out of contention. Then you can move your attention east.

That didn't work though. Twice defeated.

 

[sampsa]

Will try to continue today. Has your game progressed, jvdl? The game isn't going to win itself.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Pangea -

Spoiler Eastawards :

This is why the psycho approach can yield results. No huge Roman stack on my game. Skirmishers really are quite fun to play with. Some games you go peaceful other games you eliminate the threat.

Need to play on my game and like others I agree it won't win itself.

 

[jvdl]

Will try to continue today. Has your game progressed, jvdl? The game isn't going to win itself.

Didn't have time last week nor this so it'll be the next

 

[Pangaea]

Only played another few turns, but the onslaught has begun...

Spoiler :

Declared in 1280AD, or 3 turns after the Sitting Bull war ended.
In the Roman corner...

Spoiler :

In the Malinese corner...

Spoiler :

Next turn...

Spoiler :

Oh dear, Julius, that didn't go too well, did it? Not one kill?

We'll sort that out for you


Despite lots of collateral damage from Julius' 10 suicidal cats, we took care of them, partly due to unspent promotions on some cannons that healed them up quite well

Oh, what's this? Yankees coming to the rescue.

Spoiler :

Oh, sorry, that kinda went badly too, didn't it?

Spoiler :

With that, both their stacks are gone. Julius has a lot of cities so can whip out a new army fast, but the war is essentially lost already. It's just a matter of moving my troops around and taking cities, hopefully without losing any others to sneak attacks. Our production is through the roof, with many mature cities with Golden Age powered Caste workshops, and the HE city that can 1-turn Cuirs or Cannons. Replenishing losses shouldn't be a problem.

Julius was actually willing to talk peace after that initial between-turn failed counter. With two vassals it will probably take time, and I'll need to beat him down a lot. Probably both vassals will need to break free first.

Call me crazy, but that was a lot of fun

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay polished this off. 800ad conquest victory.

Spoiler Game over :

I basically spammed units from 450ad. Annoyingly I had a 9-10 turn peace treaty with Americans due to beg but this allowed me to attack Incans first.

Must of had 20-30 units. Mostly skirmishers, pults a few axes and swords. Maybe 1-2 phants. Didn't reduce his defences. Just attacked with pults and took 2 of his big cities. He capitulated.

Americans similar story. Attacked on 2 fronts. Main stack with pults/phants and HA. The HA took out his 2 biggest cities. 3 defenders in New York. Washington had 3-4 defenders or so. Both fell to HA. Took one of his northern cities with pults and phants. He did have LB but in the bigger cities they were not too strong against volumes of units. French had 2 cities as his vassel. Both fell quickly albeit he had LB.

Sittingbull. Gifted 3 cities and recaptured them. He then suicided his small stack of 6 units on one of mine in an incan city. Skirmishers on a hill vs HA. He lost all 6 combats. He capitulated the next turn.

Overall fun game even if I was psycho in my early play. Personally I think skirmishers are underrated war wise. 25h unit. Str4 with 2 first strikes. Great defender too.

Tech wise I traded for CS and machinery on last 1-2 turns. Engineering would of speeded up this result but can't have everything.

 

[intutama]

Immortal -
I started playing this map without looking at the thread to make sure I didn't get any hints... Which means I completely misread Mansa's UU - I just thought it was some kind of defense unit with bonus on hills

I started expanding as I could, settling mostly in all that jungle crap south of the capital. I got BW - couldn't find copper, then AH - no horse, I started getting mad at not being able to attack anything, then I finally thought at least there should be iron! And finally found some. In the capitol I built Oracle, then completely forgot about GL, instead I self teched stuff like Currency, Buro...
Here's a screenshot of when I got Calendar turn 112...

Spoiler :

In the meanwhile I Axepulted Washington with Julius joining some times after... Eventually had to peace when Washington got longbows, by which time I got 3 cities.
I managed to keep the tech lead somehow (???), self-teching nationalism, then golden-aging some GS and building Taj Mahal, so yeah I made some big leaps forwards in tech, even stealing Chem from Julius and Libing MT...
Anyway yada yada yada, in the end I followed Lain's advice in this thread and for the last push (big war against 20 cities Julius then HC+SittingBull) I just queue-built artilleries+infantry... I went state property /workshops for the first time and oh boy what a production. It was quite fun just throwing stacks of 20 against cities knowing they'll come back in a few turns.

Naturally there were a number of reloads for me (the first one after turn 150 I think), but all in all a fun game. I might have overdone the whole building infantries and artillery stuff though

Spoiler :

PS:
- Jewish-ism became a world religion, so it wasn't so hard keeping peace... Also always was super buddy woth Julius, so no problem on this side
- Not sure how a modern war would work out with Bombers? Are you using tanks as ground troup? I always find teching to tanks takes ages with combustion and all, but maybe with SP-powered research it's better... Usually by the time I get tanks some AI is just already winning.
- Going to replay this on deity with no reloads... My punition for reloading on immortal

 

[nilsmo]

(I'm BACK-- after several years!!! I used to be a Monarch player but look at me now!)

I've been reading some Civ4 strategy, and I have BUG+BAT now, so I figured I could take a crack at Deity.

Deity, Normal.

Attempt 1, 1440 BC.

Spoiler :

I REX to JC. Lots of shared borders. 4 cities; I think I can fit in 6 good ones.

Then of course I get DOW'd. He only has a Spear and and Axe in that stack. I guess Warriors won't cut it.

Attempt 2, 1170 AD.

Spoiler :

Time to play nice guy.

I gift a city to JC. That gives +5 instantly.

I gift a city to Stalin.

Soon everyone but Huayna Cupac is in Hinduism. And JC and Stalin are friendly with me.

I build oracle in 1080BC-- wow that's late. I oracle Metal Casting.

I self-tech Music and get the great artist.

I use a couple great scientists to bulb Edu and get Lib. I get Constitution.

Problem is-- I really need to get more land. My slim tech lead won't last with five cities.

But I have no Iron, no Horses, no Ivory. There's nothing I can rush with. I do have Copper so I end up rushing the backwards French with Maces and Trebs. I get 1 city.

But then Stalin declares on the French as well. And he gets Paris before I do and capitulates him.

Only person I can attack is JC now. But he has spammed tons of units. And, sure, I can beat him by a few turns to Rifling + Steel, but Iron is way to expensive (costs 150 gold per turn to get from AI) if I want Cannons.

Game over. Just couldn't get momentum.

Attempt 3, 825BC.

Spoiler :

F--- it. I see a couple French cities next to my capital with only 1-2 archers in them. I get a stack of Skirmishers, capture both of the cities and sue for peace. Now I know I have my iron and can probably win the game pretty easily, as I'll have 7 nice cities and Iron, Copper.

I'm already working two sources of gold, which is nice to keep the economy going.

Maybe I should rush France next? They still only have 1-2 archers. Hell, I can trade for Iron Working a couple turns after I get aesthetics, hook up my iron and sword rush. He has stonehenge, great wall, great lighthouse in Paris.

I'm also sending out a Settler to gift a crap city to JC, along Washington borders, to minimize the chance of him DOW'ing (I'd like him to DoW Washington instead, thanks.)

Then the only threat will be Stalin. He won't DoW right?



Here's my tech path:

Agriculture ->
Fishing -> (the extra commerce from lakes really helps)
Hunting ->
Archery -> (build work boat in 2nd city)
Mysticism -> [turn 46]
Masonry -> (build monument in 3rd city and, a bit later, 4th city, to get border pop for the gold resource)
Polytheism ->
Priesthood -> (damn, missed the oracle)
Writing -> (build library in city that’s working gold)
Pottery -> (why not?)
AH -> (why not?)
teching Aesthetics for trades [turn 82]

My first three cities are here, from left to right

 

[Gumbolt]

Yeah not the best map to try Deity on!!!

@ Intutama -

Spoiler Thoughts :

Nice amount of infantry/artilery. You didn't crash the game once with all those units?

Mansa unit isn't that strong. Just dirt cheap for what it is. Great defender. I was suprised how long the unit remained useful.
I built 56 skirmishers and lost 32.
42 catapults and lost 21.
18 War Elephants and only lost 1.
37 HA and lost 9.

So Pults and skirmishers did most of the job. Didn't get phants till after Russian war. That really only left Americans and Incans to fight. Native Americans capped without a fight really.

 

[nilsmo]

It's not too bad a map.

Spoiler :

The food in the capital is really nice for REX, there's some nice grassland nearby for a couple cities, and the AI doesn't seem to get out of control.

The hard part is the extreme lack of strategic resources and the danger of JC. If you can get a couple French cities **early** as I did in my third attempt it suddenly becomes a very easy map, in my opinion.

I guess you could also trade for Ivory from Stalin. But I've only won on Deity once and I'm not accustomed to warring without strategic resources.

Third attempt, continued.

Spoiler :

I think I should go Iron Working before Aesthetics. This means I get Iron a few turns earlier and miss out on early Aesthetics and Alphabet. But getting Iron a few turns earlier means I can rush France ~10 turns earlier, and I assume that the earlier I rush him the less dangerous he'll be. Then I can capture Great Lighthouse ~10 turns earlier helping me catch up on teching. FOCUS is important in Civ and I think I should focus on the rush. The game should be a cake-walk from there.

 

[Gumbolt]

@nilsmo -

Spoiler Thoughts :

On my game the French lacked Metal? So in theory pults and Skirmishers should be fine. If you attack early enough skirmishers should do the job. IW is useful but you might get a tech like that from French if they already have it and you have alphabet.

The danger is without IW you are at risk from Ai stacks with catapults or phants. Skirmishers are still great defenders. Much stronger than archers.

I got lucky in my run by the fact the Romans were the first Ai I found and I immediately noticed the resource in his BFC. At this point I decided on skirmishes.I tend to find immortal a lot easier when you attack early on. A skirmisher rush on deity would of needed a lot more thought against the Romans.

 

[sampsa]

@nilsmo

Spoiler :

In your 2nd attempt, you could have used the trick I used to upgrade trebs to cannons. I paid Julius deer, some other resource and 125 per turn. The trick is to upgrade on the same turn, then pillage deer so the deal is canceled next turn - so all it cost me was 125.

I'm pretty sure you hit the correct strategy on your 3rd attempt - de Gaulle is a weakling who builds a lot of wonders so you should take his cities.

Haven't continued my game, but I should...