Nobles' Club 183: Mansa Musa of Mali

[jvdl]

After a two week pause picked up the game again. Three down, two to go. You know who is running away though...
Will post a write up when I find some time.

 

[nilsmo]

Normal Deity, 1878 AD

Spoiler :

I thought it would be a cake-walk, but Deity AI is tougher than I thought.

I took the French with Trebs and War Elephants.

It went downhill from there. One of the cities I captured flipped to Russia, and the other city flipped to the Incans. And I got caught up in some ugly wars and didn't tech as quickly as I wanted. Cannons vs Grens and Rifles is not much fun.

Once I got tanks, suddenly it became 10x easier. I declared on JC & Washington and capitulated them in about 7 turns.

Then I saw Huayna Cupac was 15 turns away from winning culture. I sent all my units over there. Within 10 turns I capitulated him, after dodging his fighters and battleships. Now it's 1878AD.

Meanwhile, Stalin has been running away in tech. He vassaled Sitting Bull and has 20 cities.

He's ~1 turn away from Genetics, which will let him build the last space ship part he needs to win. I need to obliterate him before he gets the chance to do so.

I built the Manhattan Project 1 turn ago, so Stalin has not had the chance to build SDI yet.

I'm giving myself 6-8 turns to build as many ICBMs as I can (I assume he won't have time to build SDI). I have 6000 gold (+1000/turn), and 22 cities. I think I can get 20-30 ICBMs. Then I declare on Stalin.

I have tanks (no time to get Modern Armor), he has Modern Armor, Mechanized Infantry, etc.

I intend to nuke his border cities 2-3x each, and immediately capture them with my tanks. I also intend to bomb his core cities (Moscow, etc.) for good measure.

This should be just enough to cripple him. I should then be able to overwhelm before he build his last part. This is gonna be tough!

 

[nilsmo]

Normal Deity, a few turns later.

Spoiler :

Stalin builds SDI *2 turns* after I build Manhattan Project

When he gets Genetics he builds his final spaceship part in *1 turn* (!!!)

The AI bonuses are just too much.

I went in with ~20 tactical nukes, ~10 ICBMs and lots of tanks, and captured a few cities, but he had gigantic unit spam and it was impossible to take him out.

When you fall behind in the middle of Deity game it's just impossible to come back. You either have to fight successful war all the time (1-movement-units just don't cut it because AI keep spamming so many units during the war if you can't finish it quickly), or somehow never fall behind in tech. The Deity AI bonuses are just insane.

The only way I could've possibly won this is: delay Manhattan project 1 turn. As soon as I build Manhattan project, make every city build an ICBMs. Then next turn rush-buy ICBM in every city. Then nuke his core cities (to keep him from building SDI and the last space-ship part).

But really I was irresponsible in the middle of the game. I did win Music and Liberalism but I didn't really play as strategically as I should've in the middle of the game. Looks like still we don't have any Deity victories.

 

[jvdl]

Normal Deity

Spoiler 940AD-1180AD :

T157 - 940AD - Win a late Lib+MT and a GM, Have been building theaters to get the Globe in Paris.

Now is the time to build a Cuir army and beat somebody. The best long term strategy is to get JC out ASAP and at this point there is a slight tech advantage. (See: evil plan posted two weeks ago)

However:

Julius has two stacks 11 phants, 13 maces, 19 praets; all of whom can put a decent fight against cuirs; and 5-6 tough guys in every city.
Reckon at least 40 cuirs at start of war needed to resist them and there is no time get this done. While JC still slightly behind is starting to run away from everybody. My cuirs will run dead into rifles.

Switch tactics and the victim is HC who has been plotting the entire game but no units to speak of. He is the apostolic leader, so it needs to be quick.
I'll invite Julius and Stalin to join in the war.

Key events
T168 - 1080AD - after upgrading horses and whipping, DOW with 23 cuirs. Julius and Stalin join for techs. JC is now at par with me.
T169 - 1090AD - Corihuachina falls
T170 - 1100AD - Machu Picu falls
T173 - 1130AD - First to economy: great merchant
T175 - 1150AD - Cuzco falls with some nice wonders (pyramids, angkor wat, chicken pizza, spiral minaret, temple of artemis, great wall, apostolic palace)
T178 - 1180AD - Tiwanaku falls with the Hindu shrine. HC capitulates in ten turns.

Spoiler 1180AD-1540AD :

Cuirs still have power advantage against everybody but JC. Washington is so weak, he will be the last man standing. Stalin will ask JC for help.

So sitting bull it is. Not my favorite guy.

Key events
T178 - 1180AD - Start regrouping my troops
T182 - 1220 AD - Declare on SB
T183 - 1230AD - Mesa Verde falls
T187 - 1270AD - Poverty Point falls with Buddhist shrine
T190 - 1300AD - Elowel falls and... steel! Start whipping the incas who just got out of revolution. Paris has the Globe and can whip a cannon every turn.
T191 - 1310AD - Spiro falls. Gift it some turns later to the Inca - not sure why.

Sitting bull is now hording protective muskets and don't feel comfortable with that . Don't want to run the spy slider either. Cease fire and wait for cannons to arrive... slowly.


T197 - 1370AD - The bastard Roman culture-flips my precious Jenne! I hates him!
T201 - 1410AD - Rifles are in.
T203 - 1440AD - Cahokia falls - SB still refuse to cap
T209 - 1490AD - Chaco Canyon.
T215 - 1525AD - Mound city
T218 - 1540AD - Snake Town - SB is whiped off the continent and has only one city left on a tiny island in the pacific ocean - and still refuse to cap. Make peace.

As you can see, renamed my three generals. The skirmisher hero, now rifleman, is Asterix. The cavalry commander in chief is Obelix. The medic scout is Panomarix, the druid. Hope this helps against Julius.

Next stop Stalin. Then Julius..

 

[pigswill]

I thought the druid was Getafix?

 

[jvdl]

Getafix is his English name. His original (French) name is Panomarix.

 

[nilsmo]

@jvdl

Spoiler :

You're basically in a similar spot as I was in 1878 AD. You have the advantage in terms of land, cities, production. But you're behind JC in tech.

BUT 1540AD is 100 turns earlier than 1878AD so I think you have time to pull out a win before JC builds his spaceship. Should be easy right?

I freaking let Stalin build his spaceship because I waited until Cannons for Rush #2 and they failed.

 

[sampsa]

Finally found the strength and time to continue this.

1575AD

Spoiler :

In the past 12 turns I finished off HC getting rid of -issues in ex-Inca cities. Stole a bunch of techs (artillery, electricity, railroad, combustion) and teched assembly line. Stalin 1T away from that, so it's going to be at tech parity, but my 24 cities vs his 13. My stack is ~50 units now and I think he has ~150. Going to draft infantry with some whips and rush buying. I think I should be able to outproduce him. Hopefully JC goes industrialism so I can trade/steal it to make tanks.

Extremely long borders and his cultural pressure makes it a bit annoying though. The wheat-tile 1E of Paris is still only 43% mine, so I can't defend it really.



Continuing it now and I'll keep updating this post.

7 turns ahead: 1620AD

Spoiler :

Just drafting and rush buying. My passive income is actually pretty great: SoL for free specialists, Sankore+Minaret, buddhist shrine, -buildings in ex-inca lands.

I have ~100 offensive units now, which gives 0,7 power compared to Stalin. He has +100 cossacks and not many artilleries, so it doesn't look bad. His main stack is fortified in a city 11 tiles away from Tours, so I'm planning to capture the city with cavs and expecting him to arrive 1 tile away from the city next turn.

Dunno, maybe should have just gone tanks as they are not far away. Julius went for the useless medicine, I have enough EP on him to steal industrialism when he finally goes there. Stalin just got rocketry, which is useless until he has fission and Manhattan Project is built... I guess I can also take out his uranium in that case.

small update:

Spoiler :

Julius demands artillery, I of course give it, he turns to friendly and goes WHEOOHRN so the only possible target is Stalin. First I thought good, now they will obliterate each others big stacks, but it might not be that simple. I can't wait forever for that declaration, and Julius+vassals are too much for Stalin to handle.

I stole industrialism, rushing a few tanks, guess I'll declare this turn (1645AD) and see what happens. I need to fight Julius eventually anyway.

 

[Pangaea]

After much to do lately, I finally had some time yesterday as well, but it's not done yet. Any ideas how peace vassaling works in terms of how likely they are to break free and bend the knee?

Spoiler 1410AD" :

Quick recap: I've wiped out Stalin, de Gaulle and Sitting Bull. JC had capped HC and peace vassaled Washington. I declared on JC and friends, and managed to wipe out a ~40 unit Roman stack with Cannons and Cuirs, plus a ~20 unit attacking Yankee stack on the other front.

After that, I started to send troops to the eastern and southern front, against JC and Washington, and have taken a few small cities from Washington (he settles some before Russian cities came out of revolt), and I've now taken a big Roman city as well. And before quitting yesterday, I wiped out HC (Cuzco had 6(!) world wonders). He was well below the given percentages, but never broke free, so he had to die. A big stack in the north-west now, and it will take a Roman city up in ice (fur and silver) that JC took from the barbs.

During a Golden Age I got to Rifling, and upgraded some Cuirs to Cavalry, and have changed to Nationalism and drafted some Rifles. As always in this period, there are huge happiness issues due to war weariness and emancipation. But the worst is that in no time at all, Washington and JC got Rifling and MilTrad. JC hasn't traded for MilTrad yet, but I'm sure he will any second. But there are already piles of Rifles in cities now, and with heaps of Maces and Praetorians about.... yuck!

War weariness for both is up in the stratosphere, so I'm thinking that if only Washington would break free, I'd probably cap both instantly. But how likely is that to happen, or must I basically wipe out Washington before the stupid AI will capitulate?

The very long Golden Age has come to an end, and unfortunately I was more dependent on it than I thought. Have to run a 10% culture slider to not put too many cities deep into the red, and with rest on gold, I'm losing money

A couple of pictures... thankfully I still have Cannons on them, so I need to get out more for the eastern front. Will need piles to push through Rifles with mostly Cuirs+Cavs.

 

[dutchfire]

@sampsa: Can you take that size 17 city on turn 1 with Cavalry? This might make it Stalin's preferred target city, and when he moves his stack in, you can try to destroy it there. The city is conveniently located to move in your own artillery and make it a kill zone.

You could also use Paris as a kill zone, but it is too useful a city for that I expect.

 

[sampsa]

@dutchfire Yeah didn't think about that, but won't his borders pop back the way they are now when he re-captures it? It's a very cool idea though if I can make it work somehow somewhere.

 

[nilsmo]

I can't wait for someone to beat this on Deity!

I guess the strat is:

Spoiler :

rush France early, then (successfully) rush someone else **very quickly** (don't wait till tanks like I did.)

 

[dutchfire]

@Pangaea: Your financial situation seems to be a huge issue. What is your luxury situation right now? Will capturing the fur, silver (Roman tundra) or dye (New York) will? There's also the emergency civics switch to keep your money for a few more turns. Pillaging a few tiles with the Cavalry's second movement could help your finances.

Why are you researching Scientific Method? I don't think it helps any of your current problems.

You definitely need more cannons right now, when they've gotten Riflemen. 1 move is slow, but cannons have pretty good odds to win.

I'm not a great expert on capitulation mechanics, but I would go for Washington first, he only has a few cities left and they're all pretty close to the front. I expect that taking New York + Washington might force him to reconsider, and if that doesn't work, knocking out all of his cities isn't that far away and will greatly help with the happiness.

 

[dutchfire]

@dutchfire Yeah didn't think about that, but won't his borders pop back the way they are now when he re-captures it? It's a very cool idea though if I can make it work somehow somewhere.

I think the borders come back when he recaptures, but you'll have had time to move your units into position before that moment. The best case is that he recaptures but only moves in a few units. Then on your second turn, you recapture and his stack is sitting there, wounded, right on your border.

I don't have a lot of experience doing this in the era of machine guns. Prior to machine guns, you want to move in minimal defences, since siege will destroy them anyway. But machine guns might change the situation. Still, might be better to do this on the recapture, not on the first capture.

 

[sampsa]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

I believe you are just winning. You can probably micro some tiles/specialists so that you don't go broke. If Washington is a softer target, go for him first, even though you need to completely kill him.

@nilsmo

Spoiler :

I agree that the correct strategy is to take out France quickly. HC was an extremely soft target in my game despite I attacked him late, entered his territory like 1250AD.

@dutchfire Ah yes, I can park my stack 1tile away from the city. That's what I'm going to do.

 

[Pangaea]

@Pangaea: Your financial situation seems to be a huge issue. What is your luxury situation right now? Will capturing the fur, silver (Roman tundra) or dye (New York) will? There's also the emergency civics switch to keep your money for a few more turns. Pillaging a few tiles with the Cavalry's second movement could help your finances.

I believe you are just winning. You can probably micro some tiles/specialists so that you don't go broke. If Washington is a softer target, go for him first, even though you need to completely kill him.

I should definitely be winning, and can build wealth in some cities to not go broke. But I need to separate Washington from JC so I can cap both. Hope that will happen sooner rather than later, because with so many Rifles none of them are soft targets.

Luxuries is pretty good, already have Dye (and have built many Theatres to help with happiness), and getting Fur and Silver from the ice city will help more. HC was wiped this turn, so I hope by next turn some of the war weariness anger will be wiped as well. Right now, despite a 10% slider, 13 of 37 cities are unhappy, quite a few with 2-3 . Timbuktu alone has 11 from war weariness, and that's with a Jail (!!). Maybe it was a mistake to not switch into Police State when I captured Mids from Cuzco, but I have Rep+Mercantilism, and that is pretty much my entire research rate right now.

Not sure why the scoreboard gives me around 200 war weariness with both. I've lost few units to both of them. Okay, Wash. has the darn Zeus, so that's understandable, but I always find it a bit odd that war weariness builds up so fiercely when you are slaughtering the AI and barely losing units yourself.

The idea with Scientific Method was to slow-research it until I had money to power through to Communism as well, but with the end of the GA a turn or two ago, that is kind of out the window (maybe). I have a GS and GA too, so a GSpy from Comm. would allow another 12-turn GA. Distance maintenance is absolutely killing us, so State Property would be a godsend, and that's without thinking about all the extra food and production. It's a wondeful civic. SciMethod will hurt (GLH), so that's why I wanted to have enough gold to get through both fast.

The only other reasonably quick alternative is Military Science and Grendadiers, but I think that with Cannons I should be able to carve up JC and Washington enough already, once I get a good amount of Cannons to the fronts.

Not sure how long this will all take, it feels like the game is won, but I just need to get through these slow and painful last hurdles.

 

[dutchfire]

Railroad might help, since it makes your supply lines a lot faster, allows you to have fewer units on long defensive fronts, adds a bit of production, and opens up Machine Guns that might be useful as stack defenders. But I'm not sure where you are in the tech tree.

It might be better to assess the situation on the next turn, with the Incan war weariness gone.

Where is the Statue of Zeus? If it is in New York or Washington, taking it out quickly might alleviate your issues.

 

[sampsa]

@Pangaea definitely switch away from representation to police state. You don't need Sci Method or any other tech anymore for that matter. I can't see the save of course, but win shouldn't be more than 20 turns away? All you need is enough cannons I think.

 

[Gumbolt]

What level are you playing at Pangea? I assumed immortal but I can't see anywhere you saying which level. Keep plugging away Sampsa and JVDl. Deity for this map was always going to be tough.

My game strategy may not suit all but looks like I avoided a lot of greif here. I always play NC games with killer instinct.

 

[Pangaea]

@Pangaea definitely switch away from representation to police state. You don't need Sci Method or any other tech anymore for that matter. I can't see the save of course, but win shouldn't be more than 20 turns away? All you need is enough cannons I think.

What level are you playing at Pangea? I assumed immortal but I can't see anywhere you saying which level. Keep plugging away Sampsa and JVDl. Deity for this map was always going to be tough.

My game strategy may not suit all but looks like I avoided a lot of greif here. I always play NC games with killer instinct.

Comments below:

Spoiler :

5 turns later, and it looked better. Getting rid of HC got lots of cities into the next turn, but the assault on 8-Rifles defended New York built it up pretty darn quickly again, as Washington also has Zeus. Once I could chance civics again, there was no choice but to dump Rep and go with Police State. In 2 turns Silver-Fur comes out of revolt, so just about every city should be fine then.

I'm always late with this, but finally got up Forbidden Palace, and that over 100g per turn. Well worth it.

Have taken another city from Julius, defended by 6 rifles, and he's willing to give away a city now, but as long as he has a vassal, I guess he won't ever cap. So I'm thinking the approach has to be to punch through Washington's Rifles until he breaks free. JC will almost certainly cap instantly then. JC is going for Steel btw (unless he's stupid after Chemistry), so I need to use these turns as best as I can before there is tech parity.

This is what I'm thinking right now, so need to get more units into place in the two cities. JC is cut off in the east, so need units in that border too, but some drafted Rifles should hold it okay. With luck I DON'T get a Great Scientist or Artist next, and can launch a GA. But you know how it is..... but it shouldn't matter much, as the game should be over without more teching anyway. Just need to cut ties between JC and Washy.

(edit: I'm playing Immortal btw. It's the level I prefer most, as I find there is a good balance between fun and challenge. I've got a handful of wins on Deity, including for the Hall of Fame, but the margin for error is much smaller, and I simply don't find it all that much fun.)