[BTS] Nobles' Club 185 - Suryavarman II of the Khmer

[elitetroops]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Suryavarman II of Khmer, whom we last played in NC CLVI. The Khmer start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Suryavarman II is EXPansive and CREative. EXP gives +2/city, +25% toward Workers and half price Granaries and Harbors. CRE gives +2/city and half price Libraries, Colosseums and Theaters. Cheap workers, cheap granaries, cheap libraries and fast border pops without monuments means he can be off to a very fast start!
  
• The UB: The Baray, an Aqueduct with +1 It requires Math and Masonry, which are the prerequisites for Construction, which is needed for the UU.
  
  
• The UU: The Ballista Elephant, a War Elephant that targets mounted units first outside of cities. This means they can avoid nasty pikes if there happen to be any horses to attack, but once you run out of mounted units you're stuck with a normal elephant. Elepults is however a very effective army even with the standard elephant. Having an improved elephant certainly doesn't hurt.
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Ice Age, wide continents.

Spoiler edits :

Moved the closest elephants two tiles closer.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

• 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
• 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
• 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
• 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
• 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
• End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC_185_Sury_Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[elitetroops]

reserved

 

[elitetroops]

Some tips for players unfamiliar with this particular map script:

Spoiler :

Ice Age usually has a lot of brown, very little green, nearly no jungle and a lot more forests than the standard map scripts. The lack of green tiles means you'll have to adapt your strategy. With less food, production through whipping might not be quite as effective as usually. However, there are all those forests... The AI is not very good at handling foresty maps. Lots of forests tends to nerf the AI and slow it down a bit.

The wide continents setting can yield pangaea or continents type landmasses.

 

[elmurcis]

This was fun map

Spoiler :

Emperor/Marathon T362 Domination

Spoiler :

Ended up with -315 gold/turn and ~50 turns strike pretty much was saved by warfare timing - even had to revolt in/out of slavery just to get few turns for units movement to next city - still did mistake with wrong AI order because of shiny GW

 

[elitetroops]

@elmurcis Already done with Marathon game?!? You're fast! Congrats on the win!

 

[Imploding]

Cool! new NC! This time with one of my favourite leaders.. I migth try this on diety... I really like the UB of the khemer.. hopfully get som real value out of it on this map

The start looks little 'weak'.. I Would move scout to forested PH 1W to settler
I would also consider to settle on a PH hill.. and get a 10 turn worker + the extra hammer all game. Then move capitol later

 

[tycoonist]

Deity, 200AD

Spoiler :

So far going pretty well. Early game was a peaceful slow expansion, since I was under little border pressure. Possibly could have secured the fish city before Korea got there if I was a bit quicker. I assumed, since I lost my scout early on, that there was a civ to the east. When I saw Germany had settled there, I assumed it was Bismark, but it turns out there was a lot of land that direction that I could have gotten had I been more aggressive with my expansion.

Empire:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Went for Aesthetics early, then traded it around to get tech parity. Built Parthenon for fail gold, and rushed the Great Library. Then sold techs around and teched at 100% for many turns, building a couple of other wonders for fail gold in the mean time (this map is high on hammers but low on food and cottage spots, so it makes sense to convert hammers to gold when possible). Moved palace to the floodplains city to the west since it's much better commerce-wise. I think I've produced 3 scientists so far, 1 academy in new capital, and 2 bulbs, one on Philo and one on education. Should reach Lib first in 3 turns or so. Probably just going to take Nationalism and build the Taj.

Tech state:

Spoiler :

Tech state is decent, Asoka and Wang are teching nicely, but everyone else is fairly under control. The game is divided into two religious blocs, the Jews (us, Korea, India, Germany, Ethiopia) and the Hindus (Egypt and Native America). Sitting Bull is a long way behind tech parity, so I think I'm going to go after him either with Cuirassiers or Cannons. Then hopefully I can snowball onto Hatshepsut before she gets to Rifles, or at least before she gets to Infantry.

This should be a win, even with my lacklustre deity skills. Do still have to keep an eye on Asoka, he may choose to go culture and he'd probably get there pretty quick. I've lost before to Asoka going culture, and I don't want it to happen this time.

 

[unas876]

Playing this on Immortal. Interesting map, for sure! Came to like ~800BC or whatever.

Spoiler :

I guess I'm the only one that had the genius idea of axe rushing Wang Kon immediately? Nasty PRO archers, and he started spamming them like crazy as soon as I DoWed him. Have only taken one city so far and a load of workers, am working on finishing an army for the next city (its one of his outposts, and I still need at least 10 guys...), afterwards make peace and try to repair my economy somehow. I shouldn't have tried to rush him in the first place and I knew as much since my scout had discovered plenty of decent land, but I thought I might try something I hadn't really tried before on Immortal, particularly since there is so much early production everywhere. Well, let's see how long its gonna take me to turn the game around I didn't pick the easiest route to victory, thats for sure!

 

[elmurcis]

@elmurcis Already done with Marathon game?!? You're fast! Congrats on the win!

Thanks

Spoiler :

Final date could be faster as I lost 5 (yes, 5 ) settlers to barbs (had to risk "jumping" into fog as I couldn't have any open-field unit during strike anyway)
Settled on PH (like tycoonist) to get Ivory in BFC, AH 1st, found Horses to north so settled Horse/Pig/Gold city and went for direct HBR without any other city from my side - tech order after AH was The Wheel, Archery, HBR (got it before 2000 BC ) and BW - after that research off and was just collecting gold until I realise I can finish this map without any other military tech and just used saved money to clear all continent (N-America->India->Korea (mistake - had to be 2nd not 3rd)->Egypt.. that order) - with final push (before Strike started) took oversea Berlin with GLH and Stonehedge and couple of Barbs cities too and thats it.. SoD was lost... Total I built ~25 HA and some 10 Chariots

.

 

[MkLh]

Gave this a try on Imm/normal. Mainly settler spamming with an early math. Barrays help greatly on low food maps.

Spoiler :

To 150bc:

Spoiler :

 

[MkLh]

A few more turns, to 175 bc

Spoiler :

Ready to settle those remaining sites on east as soon as i have enough workers there. Probably going to liberalism - cuirrassiers -line. Espionage points I used to Korea were all but wasted as he is incredibly slow in this map.

 

[tycoonist]

1505AD, Deity

Spoiler :

So continued quite a bit further. Took Nationalism from Lib and built the Taj. Got a couple of other golden ages as well, so had 3 GAs pretty much back to back. Pushed to Currs and declared on Sitting Bull. He took a long time to kill - seemed to be able to produce another 10 stack of elephants and pikes every other turn. Also he made me take well over half his cities before he capped. I suspect it was because my power was relatively low and my losses were fairly high. By the time I was done with him, my economy was in the dumps and I was forced to immediately declare on Egypt whilst I rebuilt my economy with banks and courthouses. Luckily Egypt was much weaker and I rolled through her slowly but with few losses. She took a long time to cap as well, but eventually it was done.

Attached is the save. Could use some advice from experienced deity players since I feel this game might slip through my fingers. There's a giant Jewish block in this game now, the only one who isn't in is Asoka who is still universally loved. Asoka has already finished Apollo, but will probably get a cultural victory first. Wang Kon is like a runaway train this game. Big empire, big tech rate, very scary military. He's got infantry already and he's not far from tanks and flight. Bismark and Zara are probably not a threat, but not likely to help much either.

At the moment it looks like my best option might be to win a diplo victory. Particularly if Asoka were to build the UN, in which case I could get Wang to vote for me. Seems a bit farfetched to expect that to happen though. Other than that, I'd have to go and kill Asoka and/or Wang before they hit space. I don't think there's any chance of me recovering tech wise, so I'd probably be fighting artillery + rifles +cav against infantry + tanks + bombers. Scary. Any suggestions guys?

 

[yyeah]

@tycoonist

Spoiler :

I looked over your save, and you are in a preety good shape behind in tech but big enough to win this game.
However theres a lot of micro mistakes in your game, is what you need to change in this and other games if you rly want to own deity.
Like you are running Rep and so many GSpies everywhere thats a huge lost in . 1 GS with Rep is like working village in terms of .
Overall its a time to change your economy. From to economy IMO, at this point i would go to AL asap and get Communism.
I can understand that you are running Emancipation during a warfare but now its time to go Caste, SP, and Org Rel ( to get Factorires and Coles faster) sw from farms to WS like everywhere, and go on from there. You can bulid / to got somewhere faster.
Next war is probably with Tanks for this one need a lot of producion.

 

[tycoonist]

@yyeah

Spoiler :

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah my late game is really bad cause I played Immortal for too long and got sloppy. Was about to switch out of Theo into Org since the war is over. Probably shouldn't have been running Emancipation at all during the Egypt war since WW didn't get higher than about 4 or 5 and I've got tons of happiness resources. I think I was thrown off a bit by the map script. Played it well early with building wonders for gold, but I shouldn't have been trying to go for cottages since there's just not enough grassland to justify it. I think I play turns to quick late game and don't micro enough. The spies are really sloppy I agree.

 

[yyeah]

@tycoonist

Spoiler :

What i can advice you is take this game like slowly. Pay attenction to GP, pay attention to tiles i meen tile improovments, be cautious where to put farm, where workshop, so city can work all tiles which it has, for example this city needs 1 more farm to work 2 more workshops etc. I was useing alt+s and just write WS or F you know.
Allso manually bulid railroads on mines 1st of all etc. And after some time, you will be just automaticly know where to put what you know just game sense, but it needs practice. Then you notice that late game doesnt have to be too hard or less enjoyable then early.

 

[Lain]

Can't open the save for some reason (BUFFY?), but some food for thought based on your write-up

Spoiler :

- Sitting Bull is generally a bad first target. He would be at the very end of my list if I had to choose candidates. Super protective defender, high unit spammer, probably no useful wonders. But the worst thing about him is that he will generally resist capitulation for a long time. So you just get stalled out. I would have gone for either Wang Kon or Asoka. Capping both of them would have made for a very successful Cuirs attack. I think that targeting any of those two would have allowed you to snowball into a pretty much won position already. Hatty is a good candidate aswell.

- Taj Mahal is usually not worth building when you are pushing for Cuirs. 6-7 Jumbos for upgrades might have been a better investment. Or build the Taj and push to Cavalry.

- Culture win can usually be delayed quite significantly by bribing/switching the target out of Free Speech. Sure, he will just switch back, but the spy mission is not very expensive (about 1000 points without stationary bonuses?). Should be do-able. Might be enough to keep him at bay while you whale on Wang Kon.

- Tanks+Fighters should still be reachable for you? 1500 AD is not that late. Would be my choice if your targets already have Tanks. Gives you some time to make the necessary adjustments to your empire and get ready for mass production. Add Bombers if you feel like it.

- Caste System + State Property are great and probably the weapon of choice, however I'd only leave Slavery AFTER whipping Forges/Levees/Factories/Coal Plants in most significant cities. At this part of the game I usually train more workers to build workshops and the odd farm. You shouldn't have to go further than Industrialism+Flight+maybe Radio so I would bulldoze any Towns at that point.

 

[tycoonist]

Spoiler :

- I agree about Sitting Bull, and I was aware of it at the time as well. My reasoning for going for him is that he was very far behind (no gunpowder even, a long way from any advanced tech) whereas Wang and Asoka were already at Grenadiers at least and not too far from rifling. Probably did have a window to attack Wang, but he was a part of the Jewish block and I was wary of being dogpiled. I think I could have managed some bribes to avoid that eventuality though in hindsight. The other problem was he was leader of the Apolstolic palace, and I just played a game where I lost my attacking window by having peace forced on me early. Hatty was actually a pretty bad target... Her land is pretty mediocre and she doesn't have that much in the way of wonders (the main attraction is the +43 gold hindu shrine). The only reason I took her out later was for my army to have something to do while my economy stabilised.

- Taj Mahal: I had marble and a high hammer ex-capital, and I built it before I got to Military tradition. 6-7 elephants might have been a better choice for a Cuir rush. I'll bear that in mind.

- I've used the free speech tactic before. I think I have enough time before he goes culture. Doesn't help that his land is very well protected by mountains, but by the time tanks get there he should fall quickly. If Wang does die, should be able to snowball onto Asoka.

- I feel like I've got a lot of happiness resources, but I'm still worried about lategame happiness if I'm not in emancipation + at war. I presume I should be going police state as well? Do I just use whatever money I have on the culture slider? A war with Wang is probably going to be very bloody.

 

[Olafeson]

So i am really late to join the nobles club , i still hope there will be some games in the future, so i join the ranks of interested people. Have learned the game basically from "Chris67132" from youtube (thanks bud) now playing on immortal (huts and events on).

4000 B.C:
My strategy for this game will be SIP unless my scout reveals something to the west , if he does i gonna settle on the plain hill (1 west) for fast worker.

AH -> farming -> bronce working (if i find do not find copper, then archery for barbs) -> writing -> math and Civil Service with currency to get Irrigation.

If my elephants are close i might chop a small stack for taking 1- 2 cities from the nearest A.I. to slow it down then go back to Lib Race.

gonna also take a look at your games, would be nice to get some feedback , so lets jump into the game. Thanks for the map!

 

[Olafeson]

So now 850 B.C. (Immortal, normal speed, huts and events) and pretty much done with expanding, thinking about my next steps.

Spoiler :

NC 185 Sury

• Olafeson
• May 21, 2017

Pretty much done with expanding, want to finish The GL and then tech to Civil Service. Made some mistakes, teched the whel and forgot the marble is on a river, also would have liked to have at least 1 city more but Sitting Bull the Brick stole it. Gonna chop a small stack of Elepults and probably steal a city from Wang Kong, then tech to Cuirassiers.

 

[Olafeson]

1 A.D. (Immortal, normal speed, huts and events) and finally ready for a swift attack.

Spoiler :

Got 7 cities, one near Sitting Bull to steal him some tiles with my cultural pressure, one far east to grab the wine.

Bribed Hatscheput on Sitting Bull and Wang Kong joined into the Party by himself like a Moron, now they run into Protective archers on hills and cripple themselves. Also got a small stack prepared to conquer Munich and Frankfurt from Friedrich the Whimp, should be a swift succesful Attack. He is far behind in Tech.

Oracled Aesthetics, and bulbed Theology and Currency with some GP.