Nobles' Club 189 - Mao Zedong

[Fippy]

Question (it's awesome, but..)

Spoiler :

Sailing was the big breakthru for now, anybody have an explanation why i have trades and routes now despite nothing scouted past Toku and no open borders with him?

 

[unas876]

IMO the value of a coastal start is the possibility of GLH (which is a heavily map dependent wonder) and the ability to build a harbor (i.e. max +3 and some ). Remember that coastal tiles are mediocre, thus inland capitals are nearly always superior. So I'd definitely disagree with "coastal starts have a seizable (sic) advantage on non-pangeae maps". I think after doing the obvious move with the warrior, the value of settling 1SW goes down. It's not a bad capital anyway, just that it's not the best choice.

I guess that's right... As long as you have some strong coastal cities besides the capital, there really doesn't seem to be much point. On the plus side, 8/10 of my cities should be coastal, so GLH might not be terrible after all.

 

[sampsa]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

I think it's because you have access to Toku's trade network and other AIs also have access to his trade network (though SB is at war with him ). I do not know if it requires that also they have unfogged the same tiles in Toku's culture that you have. Would require some testing.

 

[Fippy]

Must be that, merci for looking Sampsa

 

[Pedro78]

@Fippy @sampsa

Spoiler :

though SB is at war with him

If Stalin is connected to Toku's network and not at war with SB, or via coast through SB, you will get trade routes with Stalin + SB

 

[Pedro78]

@Fippy - dug a little bit into your saves

Spoiler :

• I know you always build few workers, but couldn't you use one more here? I know there's a fairly important opportunity cost to building a worker, but you're working several unimproved tiles. You also haven't improved some of Beijing's riverside tiles. I didn't do the math (did you? ), but EXP workers are cheap and I think one more worker would have been beneficial here.
• The settler you're building in Shanghai is for the fish island, right? - that's where I would settle next and I also see that you started on a galley in Guangzhou, delaying the lighthouse
• With Toku's Archer trapped between your culture and the coast, you could disband one warrior, saving 1gpt - will have to monitor your axeman accordingly, and take the risk of a barb city spawning on the Eastern fish spot (which you won't settle for a long time), but I think it's worth taking the risk.
• What will next GS do, bulb Philo - switch into CS+Paci tralala?

What's the plan next? Would you rather get earlier Cuirs to take out your continent or tech Optics early to (maybe) make contact with some faster guys? ^^

Funny that Stalin didn't attack SB. When I tested the game they both attacked SB and wiped him out. I'd rather have big SB than big Toku though

 

[Fippy]

Pedro

Spoiler :

Oh absolutely, i could use another worker or 2 now
Suddenly getting 2 happy resis via trade was not in my "plans", so i would have been satisfied with scientists in most cities (like Hanghzou whipping library i.e. and my Cap not having so much more growth potential). Did not play very careful, most of the played time comes from letting my compi run while going shopping lol.

Settler for fish island yup, late there too cos i expected sailing via Alpha trade.
Good idea with warrior disband, kept him for new city happy guard later.

Hmm plans..i think Optics, and GS for Astro?
Taking some cities from Toku would probably be easy, but i am more in the peaceful mood in this game somehow.

 

[Fippy]

Guys please remember, when you think about tight AIs..

Spoiler :

 

[Fippy]

Optics

Spoiler :

1AD, not bad with those AIs around
Cities are not greatly developed, mostly building wealth, using scientists here and there instead in favor of Optics and Astro. But most are ready to go when ordered ~~

Interestingly my deals with Bully got cancelled not long ago, i expected that to be shaky but not sure why now.
Stalin not entered the war. Got maths from him thou, sold some techs to Toku for gold cos he's dead anyways.
I have only 1 GS for Astro, more was not really possible i think without CoL and stuff.

 

[Pedro78]

@Fippy great play !

Spoiler some thoughts :

• Strong bpt considering the situation. Very well balanced mix of cottages + build wealth + scientists - I think many people talking about "cottage economy" or "specialist economy" would gain a lot by looking at your saves, as they show that the best way is (of course ) to "mix things up"
• The trade route thingy completely bugs me - I can't understand why you get trade routes with Kyoto (SB) but not with the rest of his cities... Now the island city is a really big boost !
• In your case I would have got Monarchy : AIs will always trade it so you only actually need to tech Myst-Med-PH (320) to get HR + Wine. So in the end it wouldn't have delayed your Optics discovery (maybe by 1 or 2 turns but is worth it)
• I still think you have too few workers - 1 (or 2 if you get HR) more workers would have allowed you to get out 3 caravels the turn after Optics discovery (pre-chop), and meet the AIs 1T earlier. Also, you wouldn't have to whip caravels, which is better for research.

Your position is really strong. I wouldn't call it "won" yet though because you can't know for sure what's happening on the other continent... Anyways, really valuable input, I'm eager to see what you're gonna do next

 

[elmurcis]

Bottom line: I don't think GLH is a worthy gamble here, unless you find the stone early and incorporate that before chopping

Just to make sure this is clear... Since when you need stone for GLH?

 

[Arromir]

It's taken me a few days to actually have some time to sit down and play, and I've only played to 1600 BC/ T60. Playing on Immortal, no huts or events.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I debated for a while on whether to SIP or on the wine. Ultimately I chose to settle on the wine, as going fishing first would complicate those early turns quite a bit, and I haven't really mastered balancing fishing first starts.

Since I was settling on the wine, I went AH first followed by BW.

Spoiler :

By turn 45 I had settled my thirds city. I finally met my first AI only a couple turns prior, with one of Tokugawa's scouts coming up from somewhere down south. After BW I grabbed Mysticism to get a quick monument up in Shanghai to get the gold online as soon as possible. Guangzhou was founded to share food with Shanghai and get those riverside cottages going as soon as possible.

Spoiler :

By turn 60 I had explored all of the jungle down in the south and reached Toku's borders in the south west. I have also met Sitting Bull.

Beijing will be whipping another settler in a couple of turns, and I'm still thinking about the next spot to grab. Currently I'm leaning toward the second gold spot. Although it'll be a while before I can get the jungle pigs online, getting that second gold mine going would be a pretty big deal. The Xs mark all the potential sites for settling that I see. I'm not sure how much room Tokugawa has in the south, but I can block him by settling the pig/elephant spot. That city would be quite useless for a while though, so I'm not sure that it's worth doing.

I'm on my way to getting Writing in five turns after which I'm not sure if I should get Fishing before teching further. I'd love to hear some advice on how to proceed from here.

 

[hankinsohl]

Emperor, normal, NH/NE to 150AD

Spoiler :

A tough map so I rerolled quite a bit experimenting with various starts. It's possible to get Oracle->MC and Pyramids->Machinery but that start is a bit iffy (Mids will sometimes be built before you can build them) and, as Oracle must be the first build, you'll get a GP before a GE so bulbing is delayed. This start is also very weak economically as one of your first cities is going to be far-flung to get the stone.

After a bit of experimenting I also found that it's possible to get both TGL and Colossus (though Colossus may be overkill). This start is very strong economically but necessitates early pottery so that key techs can be researched early to ensure that Oracle isn't missed.

Note - the double water wonder strategy might not work of course on higher difficulty levels.
===========
I settled 1SW to get 4 strong hammer tiles and to secure the pigs later on while remaining on the ocean. To ramp up economically, I went The Wheel, Pottery first instead of Bronze Working (BW first delays commerce with means that you probably won't be able to build The Oracle). I built a worker and had him mine the plains hill while waiting for Pottery to come in. As soon as Pottery was online, I cottaged both flood plains, got out a warrior or two and at size 3 started on a settler. Warriors were extremely cautious during exploration due to numerous bears/lions/panthers and later barb warriors and archers present. I had them explorer just a bit and then fortify on forested hills for maximum defense.

Once Pottery was finished, I researched BW and then Mysticism, settling my first city just south of the wheat. This city immediately built a monument to grab the bronze and then a worker while waiting for a border pop. Meanwhile the capital went all out for TGL. Fishing, Sailing and Masonry were all researched while workers cottaged numerous river tiles for maximum commerce.

Once the second city's worker came online, it hooked up the bronze and the 2nd city focused on defense, building 3 or 4 axemen. In between axemen builds, a workboat was sent south to explore the continent.

The first city was able to get TGL, whipping to ensure it came in and then immediately started on The Oracle as, thanks to high commerce, all of the requisite techs were researched. Once TGL was online, the 2nd city started pumping out a few settlers, joined by the first city once The Oracle was built. The 2nd city then built a forge and will eventually build The Colossus (safe to slow-build as no one is that far along its research path).

With this start it looks like I'll get 9 nice/decent/good ocean cities and one nice inland city which I'll move the capital to.

Tech rate is very strong; Colossus isn't even online but Island City + TGL + Currency is giving me 4 trade routes per city and in spite of no trades tech rate is nice. In fact, I'll probably end up getting Machinery in approximately the same time frame as the Oracle/Mids strategy but will have more, and better-devloped cities and I'll have a strong economy.

The AIs on my continent pose no threat at this point for winning the game - all are very backwards economically, so it's probably best now to make contact with the other continent.

My Lands

Spoiler :

Trade Routes

Spoiler :

 

[hankinsohl]

Emperor, Normal, NH/NE - Diplomation 1938

Spoiler :

With both water wonders in (see previous update) I was virtually assured of victory. Somehow Toku briefly rated me as worst enemy so I built a few crossbow men/elephants but he ended up attacking SB, not me.

I teched Optics to scout the other continent and was first to circumnavigate (I lost Liberalism by a large margin though). The other continent was evenly divided between the remaining AI's, each having about 10 cities. Each civ on the other continent was slightly ahead of me in tech but not overly so, Liberalism loss notwithstanding.

Given the huge amount of land and how backwards all civs on my continent were, I decided to simply take over my continent and brute force victory. I decided not to accept any capitulations since Toku, SB and Stalin would be very detrimental for diplomacy with other civs.

I simply self-teched to MT and Gunpowder and then wiped out all continental AI's, eventually getting rifling/Cavalry. Each AI took some small islands - in due course I wiped out all island holdouts too. Along the way, Russia briefly capitulated to England - I continued to attack Russia as he had some mainland sites remaining when he capped - but for whatever reason, Russia broke free from England even though I reduced him to some small island sites.

Once I killed off Toku, SB and Stalin I simply teched towards tanks - planning to tank rush the other continent. Unfortunately Elizabeth and MM signed a defensive pact - so I planned to take out Darius first. But before I could even start my tank assault, I won a UN diplomatic victory with Darius voting for me.

The diplomatic victory simply expedited the inevitable - I had 36 cities to 10 or 11 each from the remaining AI's - after taking out Darius, Elizabeth and MM combined could not have withstood an assault from my 40+ city nation.

 

[Gasp]

Congrats hankinsohl !
I agree with you, a tough map

Spoiler :

I am surprised you could wipe out your continent's AIs and were not too behind in tech, in particular on a military point of view.
Also were you really in a position of winning by domination before any other civ could achieve a Culture victory for example ?

I personally found out that Mansa was wayyyy ahead of everyone and I could never completely catch up with him (nor the others).
Out of my 4 attempts here (in which the 2 first were aborted) taking control of my continent put me in a better position than if I didn't. In one case Mansa was about to win by culture and in the other where I am alone on my continent (still running) I am not able to get my diplomacy victory for just a few vote as Mansa (whom DoW on me at some point) is voting for my opponent, Liz !
And on top Liz is 40 turns or so to win by culture (I didn't watch out enough for this)... so I guess it's lost haha

 

[Pedro78]

@Arromir

Spoiler :

• Your dotmap looks ok to me, except for the southern ivory spot which has little value (you most likely won't get it anyways)
• I would probably have teched Pottery before Myst here - these 1pop granaries are incredibly good
• Next city spot should be the copper one. This would have been my second city - copper will be needed to deal with the barbs. Plus settling it early allows it to build workers/settlers so Beijing can grow cottages
• You're "wasting" 3gpt on units (2 cost + 1 supply), and some tiles still aren't fogbusted : you would gain a lot by having a couple of axes (instead of fogbusting)

@hankinsohl congratz on your win !

Spoiler a few comments :

• Why are you so focused on getting Machinery? Cho-kos aren't needed at all when you have this much land, and Machinery is a rather useless tech by itself.
• Way too many wonders - Oracle is almost never a good move when you have a lot of good land. "Water Wonders" are good on Water maps but are hardly worth it on Hemispheres, you would have a stronger position by 1 AD without any wonder and with better land development

Toku briefly rated me as worst enemy so I built a few crossbow men/elephants but he ended up attacking SB, not me.

It might sound counter-intuitive but being an AI's worst ennemy is NOT a factor in its war decisions : only things that matter are relations (annoyed/cautious/pleased), power ratio and being a landtarget (at least 1 city on the same landmass and sharing borders on at least 8 tiles (diagonals don't count))

@Gasp It was supposed to be a tough map

Spoiler why :

When I tested the map (deity) Mansa won by culture in 1620AD

 

[Fippy]

For Pedro, i totally plan continuing this game but so addicted to Divinity OS2 currently lol.
Merci for your comments, as always.

 

[Izuul]

Greetings civies. I haven't played a game of Civ IV in almost exactly 1 year. Should i give this one a spin?

 

[Pedro78]

I haven't played a game of Civ IV in almost exactly 1 year

That's right at the moment where I discovered CFC.. welcome back ^^

Should i give this one a spin?

Sure! I'm glad that so many people are joining in this one

 

[Izuul]

Early thoughts (Immortal 1600 BC)

Spoiler :

I've only met 2 people so far... SB and Toku. Looks like plenty of land and most of it is decent. I settled on the wines and should have a pretty decent cottage capitol. Techs so far.. AH > BW > TW > Pottery > Writing. 2nd city 1N of copper, 3rd city 1S of the southern gold. Found stone to the east but looks like more trouble than it's worth. I haven't decided where to put #4 yet. Leaning towards the gold + pigs + corn area to the east, but a helper city to the north isn't entirely out of the question.

The big thing right now is the tech path. On the one hand i feel like i should self tech Alpha because i can't really rely on either of these guys to do it. On the other hand I'm not likely to get many good trades from these guys if i do go for Alpha. I can probably count on getting IW, Fishing, and maybe Sailing but likely not much else. It still might be worth it to do that. Those are pretty important techs on this map and Alpha would also unlock Currency and allow me to build research.

Long-term, going for Optics and unlocking CKNs on the way seems like a good bet. Question is whether to go for CS first or wait. That may depend on what kind of trades i can get and how my capitol develops.