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Nobles' Club 202 - Churchil of England

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by krikav, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Churchill of England, whom we last played in NC 137; we last played the English with Victoria in NC CXXXI. The English start with Fishing and Mining.


    • Traits: Leader is CHArismatic and PROtective. CHA means +1 :) in each city and an extra :) for monuments and broadcast towers; this can help a lot with early city growth. It's also a warmongering trait, since unit promotions require 25% less XP. PRO means archery and gunpowder units start with City Garrison I and Drill I; along with CHA that means they can reach CG III and Drill IV sooner than most (4 and 8 XP, respectively). It also gives a discount on walls and castles.
    • The UB: The Stock Exchange, a Bank with +65%:gold: instead of +50%.

    • The UU: The Redcoat, a Rifleman with +25% vs gunpowder units, and the only UU based on Riflemen.
    And the start:
    NC202Start.JPG
    Spoiler map details :
    Fractal, nothing extraordinary.
    Spoiler spoilery details :
    This is actually a rerun from a map previously posted on this forum... 10 years ago. :)
    Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

    There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

    • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)

    • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)

    • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)

    • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)

    • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)

    • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
    This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

    We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

    Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

    The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC_CXXXVII_Churchill_Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

    Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians: :
    1 Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2 Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3 By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4 Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5 Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6 Exit the worldbuilder.
    7 Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
    Fish Man and Imploding like this.
  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Reserved
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Churchil is abit interesting, in that PRO gives a bonus to the UU (Redcoat).
     
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Not a very genereous start it seems, lack of a strong food tile to work early on can complicate things... The oasis is really nice! Settling on the plains hill wine could give a very nice city tile with 2F2H2C, but settling NE would give us access to the oasis for the first 5 turns, and save the wine for later use. Mining that tile results in a 4H2C tile, which isn't all that bad IF you have the food to work it...

    Move the warrior SW to see what you might leave behind if climbing a hill to the east?
    Move the warrior eastwards to see what you might gain?

    Would be very interested to hear peoples thought about this opening. And if no hunting and/or agriculture resource shows up, what do we do with AH? O_o



    Finally, I want to share a trick I learned a long time ago unfortunatly I don't think it works on deity as techs are more costly there. (It might work here with the oasis and/or bonus from wine though.)
    IF you are a civ starting with mining, AND you have a 3F tile in your inner ring, you can tech to BW direcly while you build something and grow to pop2 and only then start a worker, once BW is in you revolt and whip the worker. In most cases your worker arrives on schedule, and you have gained something from working two tiles for a number of turns.
     
  5. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Not really concerned about Oasis 2nd or 1st ring, finding food seems like the main task here :)
    Settler 1s before jumping on the wine hill could do some scouting, warrior hmm..well it's tricky.
     
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  6. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    Minor typo:
    CG III, not CR III.

    As for opening move, I'd say move the Warrior unto the grass hill SW so it can scout for potential food resources we'd lose if the Setter moves east. If there isn't any, move Settler South to scout the grass tile SSE, and if there's nothing there either, settle the plains hill wine tile. An Oasis in the first ring is nice, but I see it as a choice between what looks like a desert, forest plains hill and...I think a coast tile? Versus river plains, river grass and a...forest grass tile? Given that choice I think settling the wine is the better choice.

    As for AH, assuming no resources, I'd say Agriculture -> AH. This capitol will need some farms, and Hunting doesn't go anywhere unless we need Churchill Archers.
     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Settler 1S first sounds sensible too me.
    Possibly even settle there on T0 if something nice shows up.
    Not too keen on scouting around too much when one can settle on PH-wine on T1.

    Something I sometimes overlook, is that oasis is a source of freshwater, so those green tile close to it can be farmed as well.
    Good thing we are CHA, we will need to reach high pop to get some growth going.

    I agree on Agri, we will have to do some farming even w/o food specials.
    BW->Agri? Mine that riverside PH and grow to pop2 with oasis, then go for settler at pop2?
     
  8. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    Personally I'd probably go Agri -> AH, farm the grass river tile 2S of plains hill wine, maybe farm riverside plains wine temporarily, pasture cows, and build mines until other stuff comes in. Not sure how early I'd go BW, since I don't see this as an ideal capitol for whipping, but probably sooner rather than later to scan for Copper. Need something to deal with barbs, and Hunting -> Archery is a long detour if you've got no hunting resources to improve.

    Very early settler is an option, but I don't know if there's anything south along the river to make it worthwhile. Fortunately we don't have to commit to a tech until turn 5, so the initial Warrior will get the chance to scope it out.
     
  9. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I guess it's warrior SW and then re-consider how to move the settler, but likely S-NE to the plains hill wine, which is a great tile to settle on (+1:hammers:+1:commerce:). Going to play the start at least before going back to Cookbook.
     
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  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Deity T70
    Spoiler :
    Settled on the plains hill wine as I didn't find anything better and went BW first. AH is uncomfortable being two techs away so I'll just chop out a settler. We do have a powerful city center tile and an oasis so I think this is a decent option. BW-agri-AH-wheel-pottery-writing.

    Went for the pig city first, which was probably a poor choice. Sheep city has an extra hammer, is easy to connect and protect. My pigs got pillaged and it cost me some worker turns. Was also really low on :commerce: making +6:gold: at 0% slider at 4 cities. Now :commerce: situation is improving rapidly as all cities are connected and cottages being built. Granaries up everywhere.

    I'm not saying my position is unwinnable or even that bad, but probably beyond my skills on deity.

    Civ4ScreenShot0046.JPG


     
  11. Olafeson

    Olafeson Prince

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    Thanks for the map @krikav

    i guess i am going to play warrior 1 SW on the hill to scout if there is food, then settler 1 S and after that onto plainshill with wine 1E.
    Most likely settle on PH though with wine.
     
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    @sampsa

    Spoiler :
    Did the absolute exact same thing as far as tech path, going for BW first for the work turns and chops. Settling spots are exact but I settled clams before sheep, although I think sheep is really better simply as it is faster to settle and improve. Played this on IMM so had no issues with barbs. Landmass actually fairly easy to spawnbust.

    Anyway, I like pigs spot best since it will be Bureau cap, not to mention the best resource on this landmass...although, if deity, sheep might have been safer.

    I may post report but not sure I want to play an

    Spoiler have not absolutely confirmed this :
    iso map...i've scouted most of what could be scouted to the south, but wb got eaten just as he had a couple of tiles to reveal.
     
  13. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @lymond
    Spoiler :
    Yep I think you can go for the pigs spot on immortal. Also, move pigs say 2NW I'd go for it since they are not so easily pillaged then. Yep, pretty sure it's iso (deity AI sends scouting boats out quickly) which makes it tough on deity... Also the capital is rather weak with low food, I tried to solve it by building farms but not sure if that is good even.
     
  14. Olafeson

    Olafeson Prince

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    T 70 Deity NoHuts/NoEvents

    Spoiler :


    Tech Path : Agri - AH - BW - Wheel - Pottery - Mysticism - Writing

    Next will be Poly and then masonry going for Aesth -> Literature. Great Library and some Failgold from Parthenon, maybe even finish it. After that my plan is to go for Monarchy and then Optics, then go Astronomy.

    4 cities for now, 5th city will be at the marble.

    Clam city was first, then i settled the horse and the rice spot, then sheep spot. have 2 woodsman 2 warriors, and 1 axe out taking care of the barbs in the south and fogbusting. I leave a tiny area in the south open for barb spawns, since my woodmans 2 warri has 6/8 exp, rigth now another warrior is next to him, hope for 7/8 exp and then with one more fight i unlock heroic epic.

    Which would be awesome to have, especially in a coastal city, like maybe Minas Tirith (clam city). Could easily produce my ships there for a later attack, or place it in Capital. Together with bureaucracy bonus and lots of mines, i could produce units there without whipping at all.
    NV 202.jpg
     
  15. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @Olafeson
    Spoiler :
    Interesting that you are so much ahead tech-wise (130:gold:+myst) which makes me feel I made some inaccuracies. Certainly should have settled either sheep or clam first and probably farming the wine makes some difference. I do have 4 kornspeichers already though. :)
     
  16. Olafeson

    Olafeson Prince

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    T 115 Deity No Huts/No Events

    Spoiler :

    Yep i am still alive and kicking. Barbs have not been too much of a problem. Settled now 7 cities (pig last, should have settled pig as 6th city, but well).
    Going to stay on 7 cities till i reach astronomy, then probably settle the rest of my island with coastal cities.

    Got an academy + Great Library + National Epic in Capital, growing very slowly to take over more cottages from helper cities. A lot of failgold from the parthenon will help me reach optics faster. Already a idle GS in capital and next will be coming soon, even without running scientist specialists, thanks to the wonders.
    No IW yet, so i dont know if i have iron on my island. Down to the south a barb city.

    Also maybe important is that i have a 7/8 exp warrior. I probably will upgrade him to a axe or maceman, and kill one of the archers in barb city to unlock heroic epic. Would like to build that before i attack someone.

    T115 NC 202.jpg

    T115 Nc 202 a.jpg

    Capital NC 202.jpg
     
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  17. Olafeson

    Olafeson Prince

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    Spoiler :
    Indeed, i took my time to think about it a bit. Since now at Turn 70 w +17 we both make +17:gold: at 0% research:gold:.
    I think the main reason is that you settled pig city first. This spot was producing only 1:commerce: for a long time. Also distance to capital is quite far for a 2nd city. By going BW first and delaying Agri and AH, you also slowed down quite a bit after you got your second city faster.

    The +2 :commerce:from the farmed wine and the +1:commerce: from river cow and the +2:commerce: from the clam, means i got +5:commerce: more than you in the early game for quite some turns. I did also share the oasis between capital and clam city. Was building a lot of settler and workers at size 4 in capital, and used the mined river PH 1N of capital (also +1:commerce:) instead of oasis tile. Guess there i also managed to squeeze out some extra :commerce: over the period of 70 turns. Not sure if i whipped my capital. I think i did not whip there at all.

    regarding your position, i would still say, that you are in a decent spot to win this game though. Also you got setback when your pig hot smashed. that matters a lot. Regarding early granaries (KORNSPEICHER!!!!). They do not really help too much in my opinion if you can not grow beyond size 4 or 5 in your cities due to lack of happiness. I delay them for quite some time very often. Your pig city would for example not even need a granary in the early game due to the massive food
    surplus (+:food:/turn) with pig and rice.
     
  18. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @Olafeson
    Spoiler :
    Yep, no :)-resources pre-monarchy, but at least we are CHA, a shame that I'm so late with monuments. 1-pop whipped granaries is northern cities which wins quite a lot of food. Mismanaged pig-city horribly and indeed granary wasn't of much use. Feel like I want to replay and settle northern cities 1st. :)
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I'm delighted that there is so much activity! This is almost turning into a cookbook session! :)
    Seeing that most of you went for T70, I did so as well:

    Spoiler To T70 :


    Screenshot:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG


    This game was quite different compared to most other openings I play, the lack of food really made you think differently.
    I started with BW, with the intent of growing to pop2 with the oasis, and then build workers/settlers at pop2 with the aid of the mined PH (4h1C).
    However, when copper showed up, I mined that instead ofc.

    I saw two nice spots early on (sheep and clam) so I thought I would be pretty streched regarding workerturns so I didn't think I would be able to farm much. And 5 workerturns for +1food is not that hot, and wanting to get to AH quicker, I opted to ignore Agri (I had not scouted the rice at the time)

    So tech was BW->Hunt->AH-TW->Pottery->Writing->Agri.

    Right now, I'm thinking that perhaps Alfabet is the safest bet.
    With CHA and this marginal land, I don't really see any issue with happycap. If I get problems I can simply settle more helper cities.

    With this much production, I will run out of useful things to build and while Poly->mason for ToAR would be nice, I rather play it safe and make sure I can build research.
    I plan to bulb optics->astro, so I need to self-tech alfa sooner or later anyway.
    Building research with green 1F3H hills is en par with rep-scientists, if one ignores library multiplier and GPP, so I think it's nice here actually.
    The sheep-city will be able to run specialists, especially when the deer comes online. Pig city is also a likely candidate to get the 3 I need.

    So I think I'll just ignore the marble and selftech Alfa, MC, Machinery (This first, think windmills is on the table here), IW, Compass. Not sure where I will go for math, not much chopping left. :rolleyes:

    Redcoats+PRO+marble available makes me think that nationalism, Taj and later drafed rifles will be the route thats best.


     

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    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Regarding agriculture in this opening:
    Spoiler :

    I think one can look at the food production from an empire basis.
    I think BW actually gives your empire more food quicker, since the first settler comes out faster. A new city is 2F for free. Meeting no AI makes it likely that we are in iso, and land further away is less contested. Here there are two pretty nice spots very safe behind your hilled capital, both with food in first ring, ability to borrow oasis and on plains hills.

    A settler gives 2F (and other stuff too!), the investment is 100 hammers.
    To get those 2F from farms, you need to tech agri, and spend 10 workerturns to farm two rivertiles AND then you have to invest the food to get the population that is required to work those tiles which is an not inconsiderable amount of 45-50 food. Me valuing workerturns at 5H, those workerturns and the food for the population makes the investment almost identical to a settler.

    I turned to agriculture only after I had granaries. Now farms are starting to look abit better.
     

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