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Nobles' Club 202 - Churchil of England

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by krikav, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @sampsa & @lymond
    Spoiler What did your worker do, ~T18? :

    Since you both started with BW.
    Worker was done a turn early, and I placed him in a forest to be ready for chops. When copper popped I reasoned that it would be more efficient to simply stay and finish the chop, since pop2 was still enough turns away as the city doesn't grow th turn the settler catches the chop.
    But what did you do after the first chop? I went straight to mine the copper. As my city stayed at pop2 for a long time afterwards, the best alternative w/o unimproved copper would be the unimproved cow (2F1H1C), so mining the copper gives a long term bonus of 3H/turn -1C when building settlers/workers.

    Did you opt to continue chopping until the first settler was done, before you mined the copper?
     
  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Olafeson
    Spoiler :
    Glad you took an other aproach, you are abit ahead of me in tech with myst and that 100g.
    Before reading your reasoning I was quite afraid to go for poly and down the litterature line, but getting a lvl4 unit opens up the ability to get two injections of failgold that you can control (the other being nat-epic). This could be really good!

    Without further reasoning, I think I'll go for my alfabet plan though.
    Thinking that happycap is of no problem, I can ignore the entire religious line of tech.

    You say that you plan to settle close to the marble next. Are you sure it's wise to ignore the pigs?
    When I saw your screenshot, I thought the horse/rice city was a suboptimal alternative to the placement that sampsa (and lymond?) choose which grabs both the rice and the pigs.

     
  3. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @krikav
    Spoiler :
    Chopped one forest, mined copper, back to chopping.
     
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    @krikav

    Spoiler :
    I can't remember exactly the timings of the first settler and improving copper, but pretty sure I chops a couple of forests before the copper
     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Played to T116 (Tried to match you @Olafeson , but I missed by one turn!)

    Spoiler :
    Aproach is completely different. I went for Alfa to be able to build research. Not sure if this is best, but I can't remember I have played such a food starved iso map yet, I have a feeling that working 1F3H tiles building research is quite good.
    I did take the detour to myst, but have gone no further in that tree. So I'm capped at 7happines in capital.

    I think I'm quite behind in total tech, and I don't have any wonders. But I think I'm abit ahead in the optics/astro race.

    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

     

    Attached Files:

  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Screenshot from AI contact at T135 (500AD)

    Spoiler The power of astro :

    At T135:
    97 BPT sustained, happines problems and lack of techs...
    This turn, I trade MC+compass for the rest of calendar and also currency. Then I use two GSci to bulb all but one turn of astronomy.
    The next turn, I trade some resources, and sell a few resources for ~10gpt.
    Civ4ScreenShot0035.JPG

    The result is nothing short of a miracle.
    No happines problems what so ever, all techtrading one could with for, and sustained BPT is up at 178BPT.
    I can't think of anything else in this game that can do miracles like this. Research rate almost doubled in one turn!
    Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG

     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    T192->T200 aprox
    Spoiler :

    I did finaly get to rifling, although I think that the lack of cottages and good land made it happen to slow.
    I attached a save from T192 when I reached rifling.

    I did play on for about 10 turns, and drafted about 20 redcoats which I sent toward zara with 6-7 trebs. Did get two cities from him, but w/o artilery I'm unlikely to press onwards with success.

    Maybee it's just to difficult, but if anyone has some pointers or ideas at what I might could have done better, that would be appreciated.

    @Olafeson Did you have more success with your marble-route?
     

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  8. Olafeson

    Olafeson Prince

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    @krikav

    i also palyed till T 192. reached rifling also on Turn 192:crazyeye:. Attached a file for you to compare.

    Oh you did play with Buffy Mod. Can not open the file unfortunately. Maybe you can post some screenshots instead?
     

    Attached Files:

  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Olafeson You should really download buffy mod! It's easy to run them side-by-side. I just klick on different icons on my desktop. :)

    But sure, two screenshots is comming up!

    Spoiler T192 :
    Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG

    What I did from this position, was to switch into nationhood and draft a bunch of redcoats. Since Zara seemed so behind (and hated) I tried to take him out. But 10-20 turns from 192 the situation seemed to hopeless to continue.
    My techrate was so bad, that I couldn't reach steel in a reasonable time.

    I'm currently replaying the map with your marble aproach, where I built TGL and powered teching to optics with failgold from partheon and national/heroic epic.
    Now I reached astro at T144 instead of T136, and trades was way worse, but my empire is way more developed and I think this will be sustained better.

    I'm currently at T152 and will play until T192 to compare.


     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Feedback is welcome!
    Spoiler T178 :

    I planned to play until T192, but since the big continent turned into a hindu lovefest in this game, teching was accelerated.
    Was lucky that Zara was abit isolated, could use him for quite abit of tech brokering.
    Double-bulbed astro, then traded my way up the guilds-line. Waited a few turns when I could trade for gunpowder and saved up gold to tech through steel after chem-bulb, then monty also got gunpowder, so I could instead trade for chemistry with Saladin. I instead double-bulbed military science, a bulb that I didn't I wasn't aware of and have never tried out.
    Got a GMerch to HC which enabled me get the last few turns of steel done, steel is in at T178
    Screenshots:

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0053.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0054.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0055.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0057.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0058.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0059.JPG

    Hastings has GLib and Natepic, and I can starve out a GPerson there in 5 turns.
    I just got economics. Have been staving of CS because of the chem-bulb. Capital not that great.

    I got hindu very recently, have only spread it to hastings with the intent of GA-boosting it with pacifism.
    Not sure if it's worth to spread it more...?

    What I would probably do from here, is to start building cannons in most cities (perhaps build a few more missionaries to secondary GPerson farms) and starve out a gperson from hastings asap.
    Then switch to Rep-Bur-Caste-FreeTrade-Pacifism for the GAs duration, and tech to rifling.

    Either when rifling is in, or I have the GPersons I want, or it's the last turn of the GA, I change to Rep-Nation-Slavery-Freetrade-Theocracy. Or should I just go with caste? I have a few workshops and with drafted rifles I might manage with fewer cannons? I do need more galleons as well though.
    Theocracy might not matter mutch, but at least it's diplo with saladin+zara.

    I have a hard time picking a clear target. Zara has alot of land that I could use, and it' most backwards.
    HC could be nice, since he has a fantastic hindu holy city and most wonders including MoM and pyramids.
    Hammy is close and pretty small.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

     
  11. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    @krikav Any reason you didn't take bureaucracy? Upkeep issues and cap not good enough?
     
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  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I postponed getting the tech civil service for a long time, since that tech makes your GScientist follow the bulb path Paper->Education->Printing Press->Scientific method.
    None of these techs I really wanted. (Eventually I want printing press since it's on the way to rifling, but I want this later.
    First priority was to be able to bulb chemistry to reach steel quicker for cannons.

    Thats the reason why I haven't had the opportunity to get to burocracy for a long time.
    Why I haven't after this, is because I don't want the turn(s) of anarchy, I was holding out for a golden age.

    Upkeep for burocracy isn't of high relevance.

    If the capital was better I guess it would make more sense to revolt to burocracy as soon as the tech are in. But here I don't think so.
     
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  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I wrapped this one up.
    Spoiler T263 Diplo :

    I starved out a GPerson and ran a GA and got to rifling. After GA I went into nationalism and slavery and drafted redcoats and whipped galleys and cannons. Had built a bunch of granadiers before.
    Knocked on Zaras door at T194, went rather well although he got steel shortly after and his cannons kind of hurt, but it only slowed me down abit.
    I really wanted to take Capac, because he build basically every wonder in the game, but he was so far away, and then he peacevassaled to saladin. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG

    Then it was montys turn. He had machingunners, but only a few. And with 3 airships they got wounded enought that cannons could get through. Very nice!
    Initial wave was very slim, because I lost a buch of galleys due to clumsyness. >_<
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

    But there was only a thin strait between Zara and Monty, so reinforcement was easy:
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG


    I had to defy free speach (probably mistake) and then defy enviromentalism (this I had to) so I had 10 unhappines for what seemed forever. This made it problematic to grow pop fast enough, so I didn't get the UN-chair.

    My techrate was horrid, since I couldn't reach communism in time, so I didn't have much use of Zara, sicne I couldn't trade for his techs. :(
    Once communism was in though, I started to pick up the pace.
    Since it was impossile to befriend Mao since I had attacked his friends so many times, I counted out diplo VC, and was on my way to industrialism->radio for a tank-bomber conquest of the main island.
    This is new territory for me, does the tech-situation tell if I would have had any chance?
    I did consider taking monty as a vassal only to get more trading going, this would have been the prudent thing to do, no? Even though he was kind of hated?
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    I was highest in pop, so I could vote for myself, I didn't think I would win, but apparantly Mao cast his vote for me, even though I was only pleased with him. Perhaps he returned the favour from when I gifted him communism to get him into SP earlier on? :) Thanks Mao!
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG


    Overview in the end:
    I did have two GPersons for a GA, and a third on the way. think I could have managed the final tech-push rather nice.
    Hastings (pig city) where I built nat-epic and GLib eventually got Globe Theatre, which was a boon.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG


    Even though I played this map up to optics about 4 times, I still can't say if I like the alfabet->build reasearch->bulb optics path more than the marble-failgold approach. Abit earlier optics/astro date is very nice, but so is a more developed empire.
     

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  14. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Nice win!!!

    I wanna see you do some sort of epic tank war one of these days, though. They're a lot of fun and a huge joy if you manage to pull it off successfully. I'm sure @Lain agrees with me ;)
     
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  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Yes, I was abit dissapointed (if relieved) that I got Maos support.
    But ever since I saw that the main continent turned into Hindu lovefest I did play to at least keep that diplo-win option open.
    Who knows, maybee Memed is more fond of tanks? :)
     
  16. as2w

    as2w Chieftain

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    @krikav I have a few questions on things you mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm late to the party, but interested in playing this one anyway. I chose Noble-no huts-no events.

    I have seen several mention about not having to pick first tech until turn 5. I think that I'm required to do so on turn 2. Do I need to run an update?

    When you asked about turn 18, did you delay your revolution by a turn to get your worker out one earlier?

    After I finish my worker and BW is finished, I want my chops to go into my settler. So I build a warrior on the first two turns of a chop and then switch to settler on my 3rd turn. Is that how you guys do it as well? That gives me the benefit of growing the city 2 out of 3 turns to get to city size 2 and then whip the first settler out. Or is my thinking off on that?

    I'm still not great at the early turns micro required to play really well, hence the above questions. I am trying to be thoughtful about each move I make with my worker in the early turns not wasting them on unnecessary movements or actions, but still trying to get it all straight.
     
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  17. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    Probably not. After you're told to pick a tech to research, you can simply deselect the tech you chose and instead bank the :science:. Until turn 5 you're not forced to commit to a tech to research.
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @as2w
    No problem being late to the party! These threads are ment to stick around and it's often appreciated when they are raised from the dead many years later (or in some cases even decades, lol!).

    Regarding tech and 5 turns...
    You can press end turn the first five turns, with no tech selected, the beakers are somehow banked anyway. So that when you do commit to a tech, you get all the beakers you have produced previously too.
    However if you press end turn at the fifth turn, all those beakers are lost.
    We use this to our advantage, since we don't have to decide what tech to start with untill we have at least scouted a tiny bit of our surroundings. Very convenient!

    I had to open up the game again to remember regarding turn 18.
    Tech rate is slower at deity than it is on noble, so the timings might be completely different.
    I went BW first, but did not revolt to slavery until around turn 30 or so, when my first settler was in transit toward city #2. (This is good practice, since revolting before the settler is out often delays city#2 by one turn. Revolting after the settler is out and before city#2 is settled minimizes losses. Simmilar it's nice to revolt when you have a workboat in transit in some coastal starts.)

    Worker was done 2 turns before BW, so he had time to enter a forest and then had to skip turn for one turn.
    At the time BW was in, copper was revealed.
    I opted not to direcly move to copper, since I was already inside a forest, not wanting to waste more worker turns, so I chopped that forest.

    Spoiler T17 :


    After worker was done, city went on to grow to pop2 by building a warrior, nice because it lines up good with both warrior done and pop2 after 8 turns.
    However, when forest is landing, I swap to settler to let the settler catch the chop.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG



    Spoiler T18 :

    Here I had a dilemma. Do I let my worker go into another forest, continuing to chop and rush out the settler as soon as I can?
    Or do I go mine the copper, which is a superb tile yielding 1F+5H?
    I asked @sampsa and @lymond what they did, because I'm quite torn in how to act.
    When I counted turns however, it turns out that the mine is done at the same turn when the warrior is done, so this lines up nicely.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


    Spoiler T22 :

    I really like this food lineup. There is almost no food in the bank and I'm at pop2. Now settler will be produced with the aid of one chop.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG




    Spoiler T28 :

    TW was in the turn the mine was done, so I roaded the copper right away.
    Going straight into a forest would have gotten out the settler one turn earlier. But I value the workerturn I save more. It will also speed up the time by which I can connect first and second city and this adds commerce.
    Probably this is map-knowledge talking, but I know that I need the copper online soon to have barb protection. :)
    Capital continue to produce a second worker.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG


    Spoiler T29 :

    Only now, when settler is in transit, I change to slavery.
    Whipping will be used sparingly, and in capital I won't whip at all. But city #2-> city#4 will do first 1-pop whips of granaries, and most of them also libraries.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG


    Spoiler T31 :

    City #2 is settled, note that I now have the slider at 0%, since I have no gold I run binary research. As having the slider at 90% or 80% almost always lose a beaker per turn.
    If you have an even number of beakers, having the slider at 50% is ok, since there is no rounding error.
    City#2 gets to work the oasis, with the goal of reaching pop2 and then whipping a workboat.
    Capital doesn't mind working unimproved cow, since it's equally good when building workers/settlers. Capital will stay at pop2 for quite some time now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG


    Spoiler T34 :

    Now cities are connected. Beaker rate much better. Both workers will now chop another settler which will settle on the PH where the warrior is fogbusting.

    Now I can't remember, but I think I even chopped a third worker. Workers connected city#3 and improved cow+sheep and also built a few cottages on the flat grassland between the three cities.
    Cities will get a chop or work cows to get above 30 hammers into a granary when it will be 1pop whipped, preferably when the food bar is almost half-full.

    The two riverside grasslands south of capital got farmed eventually, and only then, efter the capital had a granary in place, the capital temporarily stopped working the copper to get to size4-5.

    On lower difficulties, the pig city further south could likely be settled abit earlier, since pigs are such a powerhouse tile. But on deity I think this 3-city configuration is more efficient and faster.

    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG
     
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  19. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Actually they are not lost, but they are assigned to a tech. I don't think it's random, rather a choice by AI.
     
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  20. elmurcis

    elmurcis Emperor

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    Most likely Hunting (if don't have that already) - I guess it is related to tech choise (taking 1st from it) order on screen when game asks to choose 1 tech on that pop-up screen.
     
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