Nobles' Club 240: Pericles of Greece

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Pericles of Greece, whom we last played in NC 173; we last played the Greek under Alexander in NC 222. The Greeks start with Fishing and Hunting.

• Traits: Pericles is Creative and Philosophical. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Pericles' unique Odeons. Philosophical gives all cities +100% generation and a +100% bonus to Universities.
  
• The UB: The Odeon, a Colosseum with +1 , +3, +2 Artist specialist slots and and additional +1 with Hit Singles on top of what a regular Colosseum gives. If you ever need to solidify your control of a border city, both in terms of happiness and culture, this is the building you want.
  
• The UU: The Phalanx, an Axeman with +100% defence vs. Chariots. Generally considered a waste of a UU, since the Greek start with Hunting and thus will be able to build Spears in any situation they can build Phalanxes. Still, if you're rushing someone that doesn't have Horseback Riding you might be able to get away with taking an extra Phalanx along rather than a Spear stack defender. Just be sure to use espionage to make sure your target doesn't get HBR halfway through your rush, otherwise you might end up regretting that decision .

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea, medium sealevel, temperate climate.

Spoiler edits :

A resource swap was done to give an AI a nearby strategic resource.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 240 Pericles Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Hmm...a floodplain and more river tiles, or plains hill capital and more mystery tiles? I'm inclined to settle the plains hill, mainly because it's a plains hill, but if anyone else has more clever ideas (or, really, more ideas in general beyond "yay plains hill" ) I'm more than happy to hear them .

 

[migalhone]

Settling in place doesn't seems like the best option here.
Settling 1S of the plain cow north wastes 2 turns but gives plenty of riverside cottaging spots.
Scout most likely should move either 2E or 2 SE for a more informed decision on the grass cow south.

Tough decision on opening move...

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

My experience is that floodplains are not too detrimental to health as long as your city has freshwater.

Deity, no huts no events normal speed, BC4000 to BC2000. Short update because I want some input.

Spoiler :

Grassland gems, gold, and ivory, and the surrounding lands are beautiful. Feels like cheating. I better not lose this one! No pressure. Except Shaka of the Zulu are in the game. Shaka is the worst.

Persia discovered alphabet by BC2440. I checked that no-one built the Oracle yet.

I have never seen this before and I wasn't sure what to do. I hastily traded away bronze working for agriculture despite the beaker count difference because I wanted agriculture now. I did not get the "fair and forthright" modifier. Maybe the beaker count difference was too small.

Here is the situation by BC2000. I am not sure what to research next so I stopped.

I am almost tempted to trade away animal husbandry for archery to fogbust more effectively but that is such a waste for WFYABTA. Since I have no copper, if any barbarian cities show up, I'll just have to force through it with a dozen chariots.

One plan I do have is to use the capital as my Great Scientist farm, hopefully with the help of The Great Library. Cottages near the capital can be worked by nearby cities until I get my Great Scientists. Then I can switch to cottage mode. If I am fast enough I can even try the "cuirassier rush" for the first time.

 

[sampsa]

Settling 1S of the plain cow north wastes 2 turns but gives plenty of riverside cottaging spots.

It doesn't lose two turns, it settles on T1 (compared to T0 for SIP). To me, plains hill seems better because at least the cow is grassland...

 

[Fippy]

Settling 1s of plains cow would be a really bad move, it's a 2nd city spot.
Caps always need to look at producing settlers & workers early, and even at size 2 the plains hill + cows + ivory works very well.
But more likely you should use floodplains + cows at size 2 for best growth, and add the river mine.
(all assuming there are no better fogged tiles, scout can look 2NE)

You should not look at long term potential if you have to pick, can always move your palace later.

 

[migalhone]

It doesn't lose two turns, it settles on T1 (compared to T0 for SIP). To me, plains hill seems better because at the the cow is grassland...

Settling 1s of plains cow would be a really bad move, it's a 2nd city spot.
Caps always need to look at producing settlers & workers early, and even at size 2 the plains hill + cows + ivory works very well.
But more likely you should use floodplains + cows at size 2 for best growth, and add the river mine.
(all assuming there are no better fogged tiles, scout can look 2NE)

So moving settler 1 SW would be the best option?

 

[Fippy]

Yup settling on ph.
But always move your other unit first, might find something like corn.

 

[AcaMetis]

Where would you move the scout in this situation, exactly? 1E -> 1NE, hoping to find wheat or corn? It took some looking but I think that's the only relevant move the scout can make, even if it's a long shot?

 

[sampsa]

NE NE? Also, W W or W SW.

 

[AcaMetis]

Right, 2NE makes more sense than E NE if you ignore the hut (with huts I believe E NE is better if you're moving the scout first as popping a hut when you've got no cities settled means you can't pop a tech, but, eh, 'been about a decade since I last messed around with huts so maybe don't quote me on that...). As for sending the Scout west, I'm not sure what the scout could find that'd make me reconsider settling the PH in favor of a tile that misses the PH and cow.

 

[Snowbird]

Spoiler :

Turn 3--- Surely barbs are not going be a problem


Turn 33 --- Archery sounds like a good move


So, I managed to secure east side, but there is a crapload of tundra northwards.

White dot is where I contemplated moving on T1 (more or less), in theory I could held it with warriors. Purplish is likely where I will send settler. In general getting second worker into some archers seems to be max priority.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Deity, no huts no events normal speed, BC-2000 to AD-0880

BC years

Spoiler :

Taking archery this time because I thought Pericles is not aggressive so the warriors are weaker. In the end only 6 barbarian archers showed up, which I could have handled with warriors. Nice to be able to defend improvements on flat land, I suppose?

Classical era comes and I am starting to get pushed around.

Note that they are already at war with Egypt. What if, just what if, I decided to move into your lands with elephants? I could have.

The Romans also demanded something, forgot what, no screenshot. It wasn't literature, which I would never give, because the Julius has a pair of marbles. They traded one of them to me for horses.

Great Library and first-to-music at the same time

AD years

Spoiler :

Still no religion in the capital. That means only three (3) Great Scientists and a Great Merchant. Quick back-of-the-envelope math, I won't get the 5th great person in time. I will have to research paper and liberalism manually.

My other cities do have religion though, as I was "kindly" reminded:

You are definitely one of my future targets. The question is not if but when.

AD-0500's ish, the Chinese also asked for Education. This time I had to decline. I did not forget that they have The Great Lighthouse and all their cities are coastal.

AD-0720 first to liberalism

No bonuses but the Zulu were first to gunpowder around the 500's. Persia has Military Tradition.

AD-0880 I finished gunpowder and have to decide on my first target.

Again, this is the first time I am going cuirassiers, so I admit that I am not familiar with the "build order". I hope the window is large enough for at least one target.

 

[Snowbird]

To T63

Spoiler :

Went Archery>Wheel>Pottery>Writing>Agriculture... depositing cash for Aesthetics.

Barbs were not that bad, but again initial hit wave was 3 warriors, if it have been 3 barb archers...

Settled all the stuff in more compact fashion, when I like. Well, again after some thinking I could not find lot of arguments for settling wider. Got a stupid barb city in my backyard... I never saw clam while scouting, so I did not think barb cty on horse could happen.



Not sure, what I am going to build in Sparta ... settler probably? Library is cute, but not doing much and I'd rather have another cotage city than income modifier. Extra worker would be nice too -- but without extra settler that is not critical.
(I have some thoughts about settling with rice first ring, but both income from gold and being worker pump are good).

Screened AI relations and espionage for like 15 mins...

Toku seems to be well boxed in and in lonely in his religion. Shaka could in theory path to me through Cyrus (has open borders), except on espionage spread and border tension modifiers it looks like he is behind Julius. The biggest mystery is what Romans were doing last 2 millennia... Could it be they settled all tundra (or all unchopped forest)? Otherwise, they incredibly slow to expand.

 

[sampsa]

@Snowbird

Spoiler :

Are you close to stealing the rice? That might affect your decision whether to go for library now or postpone it. Also, with a CRE leader, I'd love to flip that barb city. Assuming you are going for cuirs.

 

[Snowbird]

about culture war...

Spoiler :

not even remotely close (~33%). The problem is that persian city got religion autospread rather earlish, so it has ben pumping +20 inner ring thing for quite some time. I could reach size three earlier than persians, but the gain would be just temporal since after Susa pops borders (in another 20-30 turns) it would pump +40 (I think). So to keep rice I would need Sparta and Athens pop borders and produce significantly more culture (combined) than Susa... Overall, I would probbaly need to chop wonder to have real chance (and I do not foresee that happening)
.
Barb city flipping, yes, I think that is one more pro doing settler fast.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

More screenshots this time. Hard to explain everything otherwise.

Deity, no huts no events normal speed, AD-0880 to AD-1260 (part 1 of 2)

The first target...

Spoiler :

...is me! I did not say * * my * * first target. Japan, bottom score, was plotting for a long time. It could only be me.

There they come.

Classical-era army against Renaissance.

As expected this did not go well. Still I got lucky for not losing any units; probability states I should have lost a couple.

Time to go after them. Now if I could only sign open borders with the Rome...

The second target...

Spoiler :

... is me! Again! AD-1010.

Who managed to drag China, Zulu, and Rome into the fight? Japan had nothing to offer. Is there any way I could see what was traded by whom? I did not even see the "we declare war on you" screen. Now its Greece against the world. Persia, the only other country with curiassiers, thankfully did not join, or I am dead meat.

First priority: make peace with Japan.

AD-1050: the worse is to come. Rome and Zulu signed a peace treaty.

Suddenly, everyone declaring war on me is not enough. Now everyone has to FOCUS on me. Is this the Civ3 "you are about to win" AI script? But I am clearly suffering! Not cool.

Fine I will take them on as they come. Literally. What else could I do but push them back one by one as they come?

I knocked out their cities until I reach Rome itself. I just about have the forces to take them out, but my spy found another stack of the same size just behind. Catapults and trebuchets do not take flanking damage in cities. So I had to lure them out to the flat desert and fight there.

Rome had an impressive number of wonders but by 1090AD the actual effect is limited. I do like the six settled Great Generals.

Rome lost all the cities in the "main" empire. They only had a captured barbarian city and a non-functional Egyptian city completely surrounded by Egyptian culture. Surely they are ready to capitulate?

What?! Maybe you shouldn't have joined a war that had nothing to do with you perhaps? Fine have it your way. I will just come and wipe you out completely.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Is that Toku throwing three catapults, two longbows, and a smattering of technologically outdated units by those humble standards against a guy with a stack of 19 Cuirs on the field? On Deity? Toku. Buddy. Pal. I know you're not fan of teching and all, but please. You're just embarrassing the other Deity AIs at this point...

As for the sudden world war, I'm pretty sure that the AP resident called for a Holy War on you. I'm assuming that the AP is Buddhist, and that both you and Cyrus (considering he wasn't dragged in) don't have Buddhism in any of your cities? Otherwise the only way to check what Toku used to bribe AIs in is by checking their techs and noticing that an AI suddenly has something that they didn't before. Which could have been them researching/bulbing/trading normally/etc., so it's far from a foolproof method.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Deity, no huts no events normal speed, AD-0880 to AD-1260 (part 2 of 2)

The third target...

Spoiler :

... is not me.

But first, one versus many situation must stop. China signed a peace treaty for loose change after losing, like, two chariots. Obviously not their main force: they already became a tech monster at this point.

The Zulu, however, won't sign peace treaty yet. Fine, you keep losing units.

The best time to sign a peace treaty is immediately after winning a battle

You attacked and now you are furious at me. I don't even have state religion!

After the peace treaty, AD-1100 had another major development.

Egypt capitulated to the Zulu after being down to one city. Now they are at three and met the conditions to become independent. However, I am concerned that they will peace vassal to Persia or China next turn. So, even though my forces are still out of position, I declare war on them immediately.

Egypt is the third target. The results were predictable:

Notice I said I did not want to vassal Rome. Now I did, for Elephantine and some cheap tech. Just for the sake of taking out all of the lands Egypt had. Unfortunately, China does not like Rome and promptly declared war on Rome, dragging me in as well.

I better go save Rome before...

...actually wait, I want China to finish off Rome. That way I don't have to deal with "We yearn to join the motherland" penalties. I'll just sit in the sidelines until China is done with Rome.

AD-1220: an unfortunate event happened

The Jewish holy city flipped to Persia! Had I known, I should have liberated for diplomatic points. The shine was producing 25 gold a turn too. This also reminds me: I need to build the odeon in my former Egyptian cities to fight off their culture.

AD-1260: Rome dead, wipe out Chinese stack

Sign peace treaty. I am actually first to chemistry! Surprised, because they already have communism and physics.

I stopped here. Current situation

Spoiler :

I need to make some civics choices:

Changing one civic will take 1 turn. 2-3 civics will take two turns. 4 civics will take 3 turns.

The consideration is, the Zulu has been plotting for some turns. Judging from the diplomatic situation, it has to be me. If its just them I can hold them off. Judging from previous experience, who knows who else they manage to drag in?

One option is switch to Judaism and sign a defensive pact with Persia, which they wanted for a while. My cities have been building infrastructure for a while: cuirassiers are past they used-by date and I need something more advanced. But I don't like the idea of "sit back and build up" against deity AI bonuses. My conquered Roman lands are fairly poor.

@AcaMetis and everyone else interested but obviously spoilers

Spoiler :

Yes thank you for the reminder that the AP exists. When I begin my next play session, I should check who has the AP.

Just checked: Japan built the AP. They declared war on me with nothing but classical-era units then dragged everyone in. Now they can't because that final Roman city has Buddhism. Also yes, Persia is a non-member or I would have been well and truly very dead.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

The consideration is, the Zulu has been plotting for some turns. Judging from the diplomatic situation, it has to be me. If its just them I can hold them off. Judging from previous experience, who knows who else they manage to drag in?

If I was right about the last world war situation being the result of an AP vote than the Zulu (or whoever the AP resident is) won't be able to pull the same trick if you control any city that has Buddhism in it, or whatever the AP religion is. Holy War can only be called on non-members. If you have the AP religion in a single city, even a size one arctic gulag, the AP resident will only be able to call for a vote to "stop the fighting amongst our brothers and sisters of the faith".

Which is it's own brand of pain in the rear, admittedly, but at least one more manageable than the alternative.