Nobles' Club 293: Suryavarman II of the Khmer

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Suryavarman II of Khmer, whom we last played in NC 235. The Khmer start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Suryavarman II is Creative and Expansive. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums. Expansive adds +2 to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers (note that the worker bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ).
  
• The UB: The Baray, an Aqueduct that generates 1. You're not likely to need an Aqueduct early game thanks to the +2 from Expansive, but if that alone isn't enough to keep your cities alive after industrializing than the extra food and health from the Baray definitely will.
  
• The UU: The Ballista Elephant, a War Elephant with the unique quality to target mounted units first outside cities. It makes flanking a Ballista Elepult stack a risky prospect, since even if you have a stack defender that can keep up with the mounted units they'll not be able to defend them from the wrath of the elephants next turn. A well put together Eleput attack is generally enough of a bulldozer to not really care about minor details like that, though.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea, medium sealevel, temperate climate.

Spoiler edits :

Resource swaps to make sure that AIs had nearby strategic resources.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 293 Suryavarman II Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

I mean that just seems like a really straightforward case of "settle 1S" to me. Not much more to add to that.

Do the experts agree, or is there something I've missed? Not for the first time, might I add .

 

[Nick723]

Not sure it’s as clear cut. Let’s assume we want to go animal husbandry first, for the cow (if settling reveals no other food). 1S settle gives a marginally faster worker (turn 11 vs turn 12) it also gives a 1 turn later animal husbandry. You could also consider 1SE, for example.

More expert views welcome!

 

[Heathcliff]

Is Oracle not meta anymore. 5-10 years ago alot of players built Oracle. Now it seems like no one builds it.
Anyone tempted to Oracle when you have marble?

 

[AcaMetis]

The issue with Oracle is that on higher difficulties it can go crazy fast, faster than you're able to get it (barring extreme sacrifices, but at that point Oracle isn't as much of a net gain). And if you don't you've got some failgold and some useless religious techs to show for it. On lower difficulties Oracle is very much a meta play, but on higher difficulties not so much.

 

[sampsa]

5-10 years ago alot of players built Oracle. Now it seems like no one builds it.

More people play deity now, when it's not safe to get oracle and you pretty much need to settle for monarchy. On immortal and lower yeah you can get it if you want, but at least on pangaea I think there are other things like expanding or attacking someone that are simply better. Maybe if the price of losing it is low, like if you need to go for the religious path to get monarchy anyway.

 

[Fippy]

+ marble can actually slow you down, typical Oracle starts had a big tile like gold.
Masonry & wheel needed (unless settled on), workers who improve it are not chopping.

Meta are Pyras & GLH with fitting starts..Oracle never was tbh.

 

[sampsa]

Not sure it’s as clear cut.

1S for me. Timing is a bit uncomfortable on deity (AH takes what 14T), but the faster you get the worker out the sooner you start growing.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Would deity players go pottery before bronze working on this map? Work floodplains cottages and then whip out a settler at size 6 once bronze working is in? Fogbust with a bunch of warriors?

The issue with Oracle is that on higher difficulties it can go crazy fast, faster than you're able to get it (barring extreme sacrifices, but at that point Oracle isn't as much of a net gain). And if you don't you've got some failgold and some useless religious techs to show for it. On lower difficulties Oracle is very much a meta play, but on higher difficulties not so much.

The biggest problem with the Oracle is the great prophet points. Once you build Oracle, you need a fast library or fast forge to "race" the GPP generation. Which further delays expansion.

Isolation is when you are in no hurry to expand. Funnily enough, just before I wrote this message, I just loaded a random fractal map on immortal difficulty with random leader. I got Isabella of Spain on a jungle-filled start with seafood, jungle, and sugar. Nearby there is marble, a freshwater lake, no rivers. I messed around and found Buddhism after 10 turns by working the unimproved seafood tile. No other AIs met yet. In my situation, the Oracle - - might - - make sense.

 

[sampsa]

Would deity players go pottery before bronze working on this map? Work floodplains cottages and then whip out a settler at size 6 once bronze working is in? Fogbust with a bunch of warriors?

Spoiler :

Yes, I went pottery before BW. Settler @ size 2.

 

[Henrik75]

Thinking of settle 1S and go agg->AH.
Agg is needed for pottery anyway, and we can farm a flood plain while waiting for AH. Assuming cow is the only food, farming a flood plain isn't a bad idea at all for early development.

I think you can go BW before wheel pottery assuming 2nd city is automatically connected from river + creative border pop.

Will play the map after I am done with NC289

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Agree with @Henrik75, 1S, Agriculture -> AH. In fact, since a floodplain takes 7 turns to farm, I'm thinking a double worker start, with the order of improvement being Plains Mine, Flood Farm, Cow Pasture.

After AH: The Wheel, Bronze Working, Pottery. With 2 workers out super early, you can pre-road all your settle spots and rush Settlers without building more workers for awhile.

Spoiler Diety NH/NE T81 :

T3 Mao Settler(!), T8 Saladin/Genghis, T9 Huayna, T16 Hatshepsut, T34 Napoleon. Realized it was going to be *that* kind of game, so after 2x worker, I went warriors to size 4, 3x Settler, Worker, Settler. 3rd city +1 worker at size 1 working a mine.

Everyone hates Hatshepsut (as is tradition), but I'm kind of disappointed I haven't received any Hindu missionaries. Feel like this type of map is a literal dice roll on if an AI will declare on you. After writing, I went HBR over Aesthetics, thinking about 1) Ballista Elephants against these particular neighbors and 2) a barbarian city in the north. Traded HBR for Alphabet, Iron Working, Masonry, and Archery.

I have a scientist available on T86, and another one available on T107. Originally, the plan was to bulb math and tech construction, but I think there's still a non-zero chance I can trade for math. In that case, double scientist could go into Machinery + Engineering if I grab Aesthetics. The availability of Ballistas means I could potentially extend an engineering rush all the way until the AI discovers Gunpowder...

 

[sampsa]

I have somewhat hard time understanding the merits of double worker, since a faster 2nd city nets more + (cities sized 2 and 1 produce more than a city sized 3, due to having two city centers) while assuming it's connected it's -neutral. Ability to chop sooner could be one merit, but with BW ~T45 I don't think that can be the case.

I've played until ~T60, will do a write-up tomorrow.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

I have somewhat hard time understanding the merits of double worker, since a faster 2nd city nets more + (cities sized 2 and 1 produce more than a city sized 3, due to having two city centers) while assuming it's connected it's -neutral. Ability to chop sooner could be one merit, but with BW ~T45 I don't think that can be the case.

I've played until ~T60, will do a write-up tomorrow.

It's an expansive leader though. With a 7 turn requirement on a floodplain farm, you can either work an unimproved tile for 6 turns, or get 60+% of a worker. As long as the new worker ends up building an improvement that is essential, I value the worker turn at a minimum of 3 hammers.

 

[sampsa]

It's an expansive leader though.

True, this might make a bigger impact than I think intuitively. I'd say valuing a workerT at 3 is fair, even if farming a floodplain is on the low side of efficiency. Founding a new city working an unimproved fp is 31, so I guess we should value it at least 6 pt?

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

True, this might make a bigger impact than I think intuitively. I'd say valuing a workerT at 3 is fair, even if farming a floodplain is on the low side of efficiency. Founding a new city working an unimproved fp is 31, so I guess we should value it at least 6 pt?

That's a fair number. I think the exact time-discounted value becomes tricky to compare because by T20 there's an opportunity to get a 2nd worker, but there's no way to get a settler out there on T20 and not necessarily safely between T20-T30.

How about this - let's compare city settle dates and tech dates up to Alphabet from the log. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume each settling case was near optimal - that is, each city was settled at a time where 1) it's roaded or near roaded, and 2) there is a worker ready to improve the best tile (or already improved).

Spoiler Subsequent city and tech dates: :

City 2: 2240 BC
City 3: 2040 BC
City 4: 1800 BC
City 5: 1480 BC

Agriculture: 3600 BC
AH: 3120 BC
TW: 2840 BC
BW: 2320 BC
Pottery: 2040 BC
Writing: 1480 BC
HBR: 950 BC
Alphabet: 875 BC

 

[sampsa]

Haven't played up to alpha yet and I don't know if I'll take that route, but I understand your idea.

 

[Whisker]

Deity, events on, no huts. BC 300. Advice needed.
Save attached, BUFFY 3.19.005

Spoiler Until 300 BC :

Moved scout N,NW, did not see anything enticing so moved 1S and settled there on t1.
I decided to do against the general opinion and go BW first. Seeing all those flood plains and not much other food, I though it would be nice to immediately be able chop out second worker and be able to irrigate them at double speed. Did some stupid shenanigans of working like working that river side wine to get better date for BW. Afterwards I realized it would have been more beneficial to get worker out asap and improve that PH 2W1S. Thanks to this my start was very slow and by the time I had settled my second city I truly and well surrounded. Managed to squeeze two more cities in the limited space I had available and started building axes and spears (everyone was having lots of chariots) waiting to see who could I attack to expand my empire.

Gengis declared Hatty BC 1580, so I moved all my troops west waiting to see which one would first give me opportunity for little backstabbing. After hundreds of years of back and fort Gengis took Pi-Rameses BC 900, but Egypt had lots of troops nearby and I assumed they would easily re-conquer their city. I moved my troops north and declared Gengis on 750 BC, capturing Ning-Shia 725 BC. The attack went less than optimally and I lost my three first attackers. Remaining four combats I was victorious, but each attacker was heavily wounded. On following turn Gengis send three mini stacks of 2-3 units that I handily defeated. Among those units were some Keshiks, but I luckily had quite a few spears so even those did not pose too much trouble.

I moved my remaining healthy units to Gengis territory, but was met with fierce resistance. I pillaged some roads and villages but then had to fall back to defensive positions on forest between our lands. Waited a couple of more turns until research on construction was ready. Whipped and chopped some catapults and proceeded to take Turfan on BC 300. This time the fight went very well, there was no casualties despite the city having eight defenders. All my three starting catapults survived their attack on odds of 32, 48 and 61 % respectfully, allowing my veteran axes to mop up the defenders with odds on high 80s.

I thought I was doing fine and planned on pressing towards Mongolian capital. Turn later a big stack of units appeared on my mostly undefended south-west border forcing me to quickly sue peace giving Gengis polytheism in exchange of not exacting bloody vengeance on me.

This where I am now. 6 cities and nice stack of units and decent tech rate as most of my land is well cottaged.

Inca and French both demanded some resources from me while I was busy warring Mongols. I'm not worried about Capac but Napoleon has like 10 archers stationed on city next to my border, so I need to keep an eye on him. Gengis is a unit spammer and a threat so attacking him again as soon as our treaty expires and I have more troops seems prudent. I need HBR to build ballista jumbos, but how to get there?

I can cold research the HBR in 4 turns.
I have GS and could bulb MC immediately to trade for tech.
Or reach drama in 5 turns, bulb philosophy and trade that around.
I don't know if I can get music. I traded China aesthetics 2 turns ago for 300 gold and they already have drama. Did they bulb that?

How do you suggest I should proceed?

Spoiler Tech dates :

BW 3400 BC

Agri 3040 BC

AH 2640 BC

Wheel 2360 BC

Pottery 1840 BC

Writing 1360 BC

Masonry 1080 BC

Mathematics 750 BC

Construction 525 BC

Aesthetics 375 BC

Mysticism 350 BC

Iron Working 325 BC (traded)

Alphabet 325 BC (traded)

Polytheism 325 BC (traded)

Meditation 325 BC (traded)

Spoiler City and war dates :

2nd city 2280 BC

3rd city 1880 BC

Gengis DOWs on Hatty 1580 BC

4th city 1480 BC

DOW on Gengis 750 BC (lose most of my stack)

Capture Ning-Shia 725 BC

Slave revolt in capital 450 BC

Capture Turfan 325 BC (no casualties)

Peace with Gengis for polytheism 300 BC

I play with events, but pretty much only thing that happened was a slave revolt in my capital on top of 2 pop whip, making me lose a turn and extra point of population Slowed my recovery a bit.

 

[Anysense]

Deity/Normal. Turns 0-56.

Spoiler :

The two most attractive sites are 1S and 2SW. I move scout 2SE and it reveals nothing special. While 1S is a better capital long-term, 2SW has more forests and a good chance for another food resource. I choose the latter and indeed there is wet rice. It is only 1 better than a farmed FP, so nothing game-changing but nice to have.

The river goes east and south. Since south is all jungle I sent scout eastwards and met Qin on second turn. Met GK on 6th turn and on 7th Qin settled in the middle of the most rich area. Git. And first target for elepult.

Spoiler :

Finished worker and Agriculture on t11, AH is next. I wonder if BW is too much of a detour, especially combined with Pottery.
Met Saladin and Napoleon. This is scary: two warmongers and two protective guys. Then met Hatty, thats better. Also found corn in the middle of nowhere, so not very attractive. Not for second city at any rate.

Spoiler :

Met last AI - Huayna. Found two jungled gems, banana and sugar. Second city will be settled on a PH near oasis, third - on the eastern marble. Second border pop reveals corn, which does not affect my plans. Its a good spot but it is not threatened by AI, yet. Second warrior will help secure the area for second city.

Spoiler :

T35 Bronze Working. We have copper but no real need for it right now. No problems with barb defence because the map is so crowded. Hatty grabbed the gems. There is another copper near northern corn, might be interesting for 4th or 5th city.

T45 The Wheel. Whipped second settler and built second worker with overflow. He will chop into the next settler, I have to expand fast because AI's are all pushing in my direction.

Spoiler :

I got the southern corn but GK settled the northern one. Mids built in 1800BC Good boy Qin, I have no doubts now about who is going to be target number one. And I'd better chop this forest while it is still mine. Forgot about Expansive and whipped granary in Hariharlaya on size 4

Spoiler :

 

[Anysense]

Turns 57-104.

Spoiler :

T64 Writing. Everybody hates Hatty, so no open borders with her. There are two infinite things: universe and civ AI's stupidity. Can't be sure about the former, but the latter is beyond doubt.

Settled fifth city and started on GS for Math. That is unless I can get Math in trade reasonably quickly. Saladin is plotting, that must be time to hook up copper.

Spoiler :

T76 HBR. Saladin and Napoleon have Alpha. Next turn HC's got it as well. I trade HBR for Alpha on t79, had to research about 1/3. Qin and Napoleon have Math. As usual, HC oracled MC and built GLH and Colossus. Saladin declared war on HC and GK on Hatty. Nice to have AI's squabbling Trading with Hatshepsut. Never mind diplomacy - there is world war going on. Got Poly, Masonry and gems from her. GK demands Mysticism. Sure thing, thanks for peace treaty

T84 Math (bulb). Five turns to Construction. Barracks has been built everywhere, except 6th city. Only capital will get stables, not really worth it in other cities.

Spoiler :

T89 Construction. Qin has Aesthetics and Currency. He's also built MoM. This guy does want to die frist
T94 Napoleon declared war on Saladin and the latter bribed Qin in
On turn 96 everything is ready and Qin's stack walked away - only 4 units left in Shanghai.

Spoiler :

T104
Saladin just demanded my marble. Good to have some spare marble. Beijing has been whipped to the ground but it is still amazing prize: mids, MoM, Parthenon and on top of it - academy. Two other captured cities were quite decent size, although without anything special built in there. I took Theology for peace. Not sure about next target, probably France: seems like some good land there. GK recently made peace with Hatty and began plotting immediately. Might be something to worry about. Saladin's got Feudalism and Hatty is teching it (7-8 turns). Could try to knock her out berfore she got there?

Spoiler :