Nobles' Club 302: Louis XIV of France

[soundjata]

Soundjata of the Loulou Empire,
I agree with Konata

Spoiler :

and would be very tempted with horse/rice/cow ; this is your "safe option". This is an interesting map with many different settling patterns and nobody making the same choices
I'm pretty much decided on city 3, 3W of Paris and city 4 where warrior is.
Horse rice cow does not have forests or commerce and Alex should settle the area for me like he did for @CarpoolKaraoke
Edit maybe on the rice could be a fair option in the perspective of 5 cities.

I've spent some time looking at your screenshot and I am unsure what you did.
Did you go Archery before AH and have just now gotten AH ?
Yes, I was feeling I had to have an archer on a desert hill as the most critical priority. I think he got chopped

Also, workers. Have you just produced your 2nd or do you have 2 stacked on your cow tile ? (In which case, do you have just produced your 3rd ?)
I have just 2 workers and they're on the cow yes. They previously double chopped a settler who's chilling in Paris. Orleans just completed a warrior.

Sooo.... did you go worker, then settler at size 3, to settle the cows for which you didn't have the tech ?
Yes share corn. No whip so far although I'm in slavery.

Meanwhile, did you camp that ivory but neglected to road the single tile to connect your two cities ? How are there no roads on your map if you settled Orleans without even knowledge of AH ? Or a farmed floodplains, idk
No camp no road yet. Roads are my next priority so I can get to writing asap.
Think I'll forgo Pottery and focus on Growth, Libraries and Prechop. (if Alex allows).
In fact I did a lot of calculation not factoring elephants happiness

Much questions Many confusion Most Undecidedness


Also, you ask about a hill, that hill, you know, which is a fair question (maybe even a brilliant question) but your archer appears to be on Sentry.
He's just waiting for a proper decision.
There are a couple of unfogbusted tiles in the NE and a boudiscout near the cow I think.
Would it be good to have a barb city spawn somewhere on the coast?

How are you gonna find the hill if you don't move him ?
I was thinking about SettlingOnDesertGold to put cultural pressure on Alex but :
- was waiting for @sampsa to suggest it
- not sure if it's a sane strategy ; TGW isn't available.

Also while we speak about hills, here is one:

Spoiler :

 

[konata_LS]

Less bad? It's a great thing for sure.

You're right. Maybe things are less terrible than I expected . I should have better managed my workers in the early game .

Wouldn't someone recommend settling on a hill and gathering a few archers there in case of a violent neighbour ?

Do you mean settle the capital on the hill, or settle a border city on a hill as a "choke point" which lets AIs suicide their stacks?
As people said, if the capital is threatened, the situation is already bad. But settling a "choke point" is an interesting idea. In some cases it works well.

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Agree about HBR first. I also put HBR before Writing. But in the middle of teching HBR, my chariot on a hill saw Alex put 2 Phalanxes in his border city . I was afraid that Alex would attack me before my HAs were ready. Under panic, I halted HBR and went for Archery. Maybe I was a little paranoid, but I really didn't want to defend against AGG Phalanxes with only warriors and chariots.

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

2 workers before settler. Interesting

This map on Deity requires some luck, I guess. As Kaitzilla said in @ Pangaea's thread, any DoW before 2000BC is instant loss. If Alex luckily doesn't decide to attack you before 2000BC, or if he distracts himself with some wonders, it would largely increase your chance of surviving the early game.

Your T30 situation looks good . The diplomacy also looks good. It seems both Buddhism and Hindu were founded on the other continent, which means the three unknown AIs won't be in the same religion. If Boudica founds Buddhism, you might have to deal with a far away Hindu lovefest after Optics.

 

[konata_LS]

Have got some spare time for playing a few turns

From T108 to T131:

Spoiler :

Biz founded Confu in 75BC

As result, Biz got attacked in 175 AD . Biz lost a city but he took it back the next turn. Biz had longbows, no WE; Boudica had War elephants but she didn't even have PH or Monotheism. Biz had 7 cities but Boudica 10 cities. Hopefully Biz wouldn't capitulate or lose too much land to Boudica .
(And yes, as shown in the screenshot, in 200AD I'm still researching Fishing )

After Alphabet, all cities building to finish Currency. Got IW from Boudica and Monarchy from Biz. The situation became better after Currency. Happy cap also increased because I got Gem and Dye through trade from Boudica.

French wine, goat cheese, pot-au-feu from the cow, and bouillabaisse from seafood were all good for growing the cities. I think it's time to backfill the former Greek peninsula and to resettle Athens spot.

Somewhat worry about the resources: our continent doesn't have any wheat. How can people make baguette and croissant without wheat flour?

Have to deal with real life for the next few days. Will keep playing the game this weekend or next week.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@BornInCantaloup Dumb but not entirely off-topic question

Spoiler :

How do you even get 4 cities and 7 workers in 60 turns? "Double corn" is not the full answer. Did you do an early worker-steal from Alexander?

 

[danjuno]

Spoiler :

Turn 106: Alex only got out two phalanxes and a spear (which he suicided into my stack along with an archer) before I unhooked his copper. Thanks to that I was able to slip The Pyramids in. Boudica and Bismarck both founded religions, so I'm gonna cool my heels while squeezing out another city or two.

 

[soundjata]

Spoiler :

Now, Soundjata, what do I do ? We have religion on the continent. Alexander has.... Aggressive, double-promoted Swordsmen (scary)... The time is turn 60. This is your plan, what's the plan ? For starters, do I open borders with him ? There's a barb city up north that he could target, perhaps.

Spoiler :

There is no plan my dear BIC. Just visions from the past (In case of Monty / Shaka get some hill city and archers.)

I'll try to put here a couple of reference games I was thinking about... But I know you know...

Of course, part of the plan is the "bad guy" is supposed to declare on you. But now in your game he's acting all pacifist

Construction (catapults) look key in using the hill city to your advantage. How soon can you get to that?

(Alex talking to Louis) There are two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig

 

[soundjata]

A couple of references about hill cities used to counter killer AIs:

- Team Deity Challenge by Duckweed (loads of discussions, many pictures lost) : this is the moment a hill settler is in place.
The reason he is on the hill is because red fist was already shown!

- Evil Cooked map by Gwaja and Elepult execution by Shakabrade here.
No bad luck (no early dow) / few workers, keep the chops!

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

This is turn 45 :

Spoiler :

So... workers, yeah. A city probably wants an active worker at all times. This is why workers before cities generally leads to a more harmonious development. Cities before workers is for situations when the tiles you claim unlock something special, when the land is in danger of being settled by an AI, or, for situations when a worker at home doesn't gain much. The worker is the snowball unit by excellence.
With Bronze Working and a forest spam, there is much to do with a worker at home. With Pottery, there also is much to do.
If you send your initial worker with the first settler, then you need to consider the cost of leaving your capital unattended. In fact, in that scenario, small tip : it will often be right to leave the first worker by the capital to speed up (chop) the second one, then it will be possible to improve the second city without neglecting the capital.
^ Those are not rules of thumb but rather common situations. Developping a city without a worker is, in fact, much less efficient than developping a city with a worker

Spoiler :

Chopping instead of improving tiles is valuable when the temporary gain in production can be used to improve land usage faster. Without the expansive trait, I think there are narrow scenarios where it's more valuable to go worker --> worker --> Settler over worker --> Settler --> Worker.


Here are some alternatives I've considered from T30 - T45:

Spoiler :

Single worker - could choose to obtain Settler T31

T45 3 cities + 4 super tiles + in time improvements. 3 workers, double warriors for defense.

Option 2: 1 Turn behind on 3 cities + 5 super tiles + in time improvements. 2 workers, double warriors for defense + 1 turn for horse.

 

[chinemol]

Spoiler :

T146 Inmortal: wiped out alex but couldn't beg from bismarck (he'd say no), so I have a big army of catapults + elephants, he has longbows already, boudica is also about to get them, I'll be the first to music so I thought of getting COL and metal casing and building forges and couthouses during the free artist's golden age. the thing is: this army is quite usless right now and a huge drain. should i license only catapults?, some elephants as well? boudica seems not to be an issue since she is pleased, but the germans might just attack. By the way, I have GLH, Stonhenge from alex, but also built GL and about to get parthenon + national epic on it. Thought of going lib-->cuirs, but the game seems will get long. maybe lib astro? not lib at all? suggestions?

 

[soundjata]

Update T72

Spoiler :

Turns went according to the plan of 5 cities + 5 workers & T77 Math.

Settling pattern, shadowing Alex

Our production went slowly in comparison with BIC explosive approach (chop workers):
the underlying advantage of few units being more research power (less unit cost)

Cities were busy either growing on the corns or slowbuilding workers / settlers.

Use of the whip was scarce, including a 1pop whip of Rice settler by Orleans.

A single chop was performed to free Rheims city tile and accelerate Paris Library.

Archer is on the hill.
We're trading (Sheep + Ivory) for (Gem+Rice) with Boudica. Happy cap

Math is 5 turns away and there are 23 forests inside our borders.

We have 5 workers
(who have been roading > starting rheims > improving a couple of specials > farming the cap à la Duckweed)

Alex is all disoriented atm.
I have a double corn + double horse "soft trap" at his disposal but he did not fall for it.
In any case, happy face diplomacy is getting obsolete doesn't it?

 

[soundjata]

Update T100

Spoiler :

Alex is giving in.
A first great general helped upgrading a bunch of dudes. There is another one.
32 HA built, 16 alive
Alex lost ~40 units.
Athens has GLH
I refused to use the whip all along and the situation was borderline when Alex finally went on war (T85)

Now we can sign peace for this

(he also gives construction which we can't see)
Would it be smarter to ask for Thebes? He's offering that as well

 

[sampsa]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

Not sure I understand how you are getting out of the hole (haven't opened save though). I mean yeah 10 cities is cool and all, but no pottery... I guess you are teching construction to get it via peace, but the issue is that you do nothing with that. I think what you'd need is masses of failgold.

 

[soundjata]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

Not sure I understand how you are getting out of the hole (haven't opened save though). I mean yeah 10 cities is cool and all, but no pottery... I guess you are teching construction to get it via peace, but the issue is that you do nothing with that. I think what you'd need is masses of failgold.

Spoiler :

construction for Boudica?

 

[soundjata]

So there was a plan, that was the plan !

Spoiler :

I think it looks really good. Skipping Pottery is wild but your Math bulb and the whole timing looks excellent.
Apart from having a reasonable plan when meeting Alex turn 5 (i.e. HBR + bulb),
I also like how you danced around him, leaving him breathing room so he wouldn't plot/DoW. That whole Sad Hill story was a terrible plan you tricked me into

Your fewer workers seem perfectly appropriate. Less workers also mean less time needed for them to pay off. Even workers need time to pay off and, to be fair, I probably overdid it with the wood burning and should have started cottaging earlier on.
I realize my game is on a very different dynamic than yours and certainly less coherent. I'm more geared towards aimlessly teching up, as usual, researching Aesthetics, ignoring the warmonger neighbour and dying a horrible death

I know you've played on to kill Alex but I didn't have a thorough look (mostly : you didn't self-tech Pottery, still wild....).
Do you go on to pre-mine some of those hills, now ? It does seem like whipping might be a problem.

Another plan, he did it again. What is going on ?!

Spoiler :

the workers should probably focus on chopping a couple of coastal cities while we wait for the peace treaty to end. Alex might also try to expand...
Then Aesthetics can't be wrong I guess.

 

[soundjata]

Failgold aquired T122

Spoiler :

Meanwhile, Celtia is at War with Germany
9 Generals have been in the game

Cuir?

Spoiler :

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Yes, exactly, this is very well put. And you're right that expanding onto 6-yield tiles asap should be a priority and would justify the speedy settlers. Also, props for testing different openers.
I don't agree with your conclusion, however

Spoiler :

So... Going Hunting before AH : there is no 6-yield tile to improve asap. Going AH first : probably a different scenario.
The two workers also help connect city 2, despite not settling by the river. (You do realize I'm a full tech ahead. I doubt that you have Archery on t45, right ? Or am I reading this wrong ? I myself have been tricked into researching Archery to defend a most dubious hill city )

Did you whip both of your settlers 4-->2 ? You do get more production this way (towards warriors) but I do not think it is faster than building the first settler at size 3. It will also lose on some commerce if you have the wine improved. Whipping the second settler is a different story. Whipping the first settler typically delays the second. Could be good, could be bad, depends what the objectives are (tiles, you're absolutely right).

If you meant to underline that I've been too liberal - or even wasteful - with my chopping, well, I do agree with you. I missed the spot right after t45 where I should have started cottaging, at least a few tiles (instead of roading down to Alex' borders). Soundjata also showed very nicely how forests can be stored as a long term resource. There is no sense in burning them if I'm not improving the tiles under.
If it's about overall production, I do believe my t45 is ahead but I'll agree it's close. Close enough that burning resources is relevant

So, riverside, tech timing. I would be much more inclined to go settler first if I were settling by the riverside and/or had knowledge of AH.
My real regret with my opener is that there are so many plains hills on this map and, yet, I found the means to settle all 4 of my first cities without a 2H city tile

Spoiler :

It's true, I don't believe in archery - does mean I require more warriors - growth to size 4 naturally produces a second warrior before the settler goes out. No, I alternated between whip and no whip depending on the 2nd city spot. Hunting before AH with whip means settling on ivory and chopping a worker. No whip means AH arrives on time. I think size 3 is fine for commerce too - adding another variation here.


Do you mind posting your save from T45? Easier to compare that way - here are mine.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Update T100

Spoiler :

Alex is giving in.
A first great general helped upgrading a bunch of dudes. There is another one.
32 HA built, 16 alive
Alex lost ~40 units.
Athens has GLH
I refused to use the whip all along and the situation was borderline when Alex finally went on war (T85)

Now we can sign peace for this

(he also gives construction which we can't see)
Would it be smarter to ask for Thebes? He's offering that as well

Spoiler :

This is super nice. I wonder if the AI has some baked in code that says IF (NO_ROUTES) ---> CHANCE_DECLARE_WAR ++, or if that's just a coincidence. The range of war declaration times (T50-T85) changes the outcome of the game hugely.

 

[soundjata]

^ Yes it almost looks like this :
- Do I have a settler and is there a "blue circle" city I can grab ?
IF NO then DOW the closest dude.

 

[soundjata]

Sooo,

Spoiler :

What do you do with your GP, here, Soundjata ? Bulb or Golden Age ? I'm guessing you can easily self-tech Philo by the time it's online (a 3rd specialist in Paris would be nice), so the Golden Age seems appealing.
Errr... Religion. Do you have a shot at religion ?

Also, what did you do with your army ? Disband ? Is there any sense in upgrading when you probably also want Astronomy ?

I like your jacket.

Spoiler :

The gold carries us to Civil Service.

At that point we can start a golden age with the Artist :
switch to Bureau and Caste
release 3 great Scientists for Philo > Edu > Lib

GP management needs to be tight (No Religion on this continent!) but I think I found a proper deal (Lib in ~12 turns, Cuir in ~24)

- Paris scientist in 5t
- Orleans in 8t (exactly)
- Lyon in 9 or 10
- Athens will be equiped with NE next turn, release some failgold and jump onto the Merchant train

Spoiler bonus :

The sound of Forges

Decided some extra workers would be handy to upgrade the peninsula (irrigation)

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Yeah, me neither Even Hunting is a close call. Without consideration for Archers/Horse Archers, I'd probably try to delay it until after Writing, when the happiness from Ivory starts to matter (<-- not specific to this map).

Sure thing. Done. Keep in mind I do not claim it cannot be improved At least, I can see that going for the 4th city at this point is what kept me from cottaging early. Paris should place the 5th worker in the queue on T45. Then, cottaging wouldn't be a problem.

Spoiler Comparison: End of Turn 45 - Continued :

TLDR: You're right. That wine tile is more important than I expected, and 15 turns of worker improvements becomes costly. In addition, my further initial settle away at a diagonal is disrespectful to Diety maintenance costs.

If I follow your tech order, improvements, and settle spots, but swap Settler/Worker order, I end up 1 turn ahead on settling and 1 turn behind on hammers.

Interestingly, I end up having more permanent improvements in each scenario, despite almost always having fewer workers. I don't know how to put a price on remaining forests though.


Rough estimates:
1 worker turn = 5 hammers (via 4 turn move and chop).
Whip-able non-granary pop at ~24 food = 30 Hammers
Commerce to Beakers: Archery: 18--> 25. Pottery 18-->24.


Yours:
Production: 2 Warriors, 3 workers, 2 Settlers + 36 Hammers +25 Overflow + 1 turn chop (eval @ 5 hammers) = 30 + 180+ 200 + 66 = 476 Hammers
Food: 3 Pop + 3/24 food ---> 94 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: +25 Turns
Science: Pottery: 91 Beakers, Archery: + 101 beakers
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield : 31/5/25


Mine 1: Max Production
Production: 2 Warriors, 3 workers, 2 Settlers + 48 Hammers + 2 turn chop = 30 + 180 + 200 + 58 = 468 Hammers
Food: 2 Pop + 15/22 Food --> 79 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: + 31 Turns
Science: Pottery: 133 Beakers, No Archery
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield: 29/6/26

Rough Conclusion: +7 hammer improvement, -60 science --> ~-43 commerce . G/M/C: -2, +1, +1. Not worth.


Mine 2: Focus Horse
Production: 3 Warriors, 2 workers, 2 Settlers + 12 Hammers + 32 Overflow = 45 + 120 + 200 + 48 = 408 Hammers
Food: 3 Pop, 2/26, 7/24 Food --> 101 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: +32 Turns
Science: Pottery: 118 Beakers, No Archery
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield: 28/9/24

Rough Conclusion: -25 hammer, -80 science ---> -57 commerce. G/M/C -3, +4, -1. Not worth unless chariots save substantial future losses.

Mine 3: Focus Tech (i.e farm wine)
Production: 2 Warriors, 2 workers, 2 Settlers + 30 Hammers = 30 + 120 + 200 + 30 = 380 Hammers
Food: 3 Pop, 6/24 Food --> 98 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: +31 Turns
Science: Pottery: 135 Beakers, Writing + 34 Beakers, No archery
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield: 35/7/29

Rough Conclusion: -62 hammer improvement, - 20 science --> ~-15 commerce. G/M/C: +4, +2, +4. Eh.


Mine 4: New (attached) - Match city spot, Match improvements, only differ on Worker/Settler order
Production: 2 Warriors, 2 workers, 2 Settlers + 45 Hammers + 20 Overflow = 30 + 120 + 200 + 65 = 415 Hammers
Food: 3 Pop, 3/24 Food --> 94 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: +28 Turns
Science: Pottery: 84 Beakers
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield: 35/6/30


Rough Conclusion: -36 hammer, -7 science ---> -5 commerce (same, gold difference). G/M/C +4, +1, +5.