Nobles' Club CLIX Mao of China

[Izuul]

Promote what you need to defend your stack if it's exposed but save the other promos.

 

[dmd175]

Where we left off I was playing suboptimally on my initial attempt ever at Emperor, including some idiotic city placements, and being outclassed/outteched/outgunned.

The next hundred(ish) turns:

Appreciate the tips, esp in below on overall strategy, tech order, trades, and in the last line-civic choices (e.g. stay in bureau?). Thanks!~

Spoiler :

Spoiler starting demo :

Turn 101: Galley out, going east.

Turn 102: Meet Mansa, who only has 3 cities, and no alphabet. So, another techer, but he's behind (or at least his continent is).

Turn 106: Judaism spread in our Westernmost city Guangzhou.

Turn 107: Meet Caesar, who has 7 cities AND 5 jumbos. Really, as if praets weren't enough. Christianity founded.

Turn 109: Second GP despite 52% GS probability, so I took Golden Age. Shanghai will make a GS (100%) in 20 turns unfortunately b/c 3rd great person.

Turn 110: Korea demands Judaism, and I'm in a Golden Age so no problemo.

Spoiler :

Turn 112: Egypt declares on Mali. Cancelled OB on Willem. His troops trapped on my east.

Turn 120: Colossus. JC built Pyramids (I know b/c he went Rep).

Turn 122: Xian founded for deer/silver, given that I have forges everywhere now.
--MC to Willem for currency (with 65 gold), MC/poly to WK for alpha/hunting/priest,

Turn 117: MC/poly to WK for Alpha/Meditation/Hunting, MC to Willem for IW/Priest/MT, alpha to JC for IW/archery/10 gold.

Turn 125: TGL whipped in Guangzhou.

Turn 127: Lost Music by 2 turns to Willem. Dead, eventually.

Turn 130: Aes/map/45 gold to MM for construction. Alpha to Ramesses for Med/MT/10 gold.

Turn 131: MT to JC for 90 gold. Aes/105 gold to WK for Monarchy.
-Revolted to HR/OR.

Turn 137: Aes/30 to Ramesses for HBR (he was only without aesthetics).

Turn 141: Finally GS, academy in Guangzhou (Beijing has more science but I think the other is a better long term capital/cottage).

Turn 144: That was close!

Spoiler :

Turn 145: Parthenon in Guangzhou (culture as a wedge between WK/WvO).
--Map around that time of borders, pay attention for subsequent pictures

Spoiler :

Turn 150: As recently as ~15 turns ago last in score, now #1 (obviously this means little).

Tech: Aesthetics>Poly>Lit>math>Music>calendar>Machinery>COL>ENG

Better: More expansion.
Bad: Low population, low troops.

===
Turn 153:
--WK built AP, I was 2nd in voting (WvO voted for WK)
--MOM in Beijing.
--Feudalism/40 gold from Egypt for music/COL.

Turn 154: Fedualism/lit/55 gold to MM for CS. Now I need to move capital to Guangzhou...

Turn 161: Macau founded (SW at whales/iron; just trying to lock up the land available). Gave COL to JC for 250 gold.

Turn 162: Sistine in Guangzhou, mainly for culture at the critical border.

Turn 164: GS, bulbed philo. Paper in 1 turn so going to make a run at it.

Turn 165: No one has education, so I guess I'm going that and lib. But would love nationalism/Taj and even printing press.

Turn 166: Paper to WK for Theo/WM/40 gold (everyone else had paper anyway, and he doesn't have philo).

Turn 172: Met Alex. Shandong founded. Philo and 70 gold to WK for drama/compass...I really want to build that UB! (no)

Turn 175: WvO and I get education on the same turn...

Spoiler :

Turn 176: UoS in Guangzhou.

Spoiler culture bombing :

Turn 178: Lost Lib by 2 turns to WvO. Based on F4 screen he took nationalism.

Turn 180: Theo/music/CS to Alex for guilds/40 gold.

Turn 182: Guilds to MM for optics. Caravel out in 2.

Turn 189: Nationalism, Taj in 9 turns, 8 with starving.

Turn 190: Kaifeng founded, to bulk up some Guangzhou cottages in prep for (late) bureaucap.
--Drama/philo to Alex for banking/30 gold.

Turn 197: Taj Mahal (!). Into Bureau/Rep with capital moved.

Spoiler pre GA demo :

Turn 198: Ningbo founded.

Spoiler culture bombing so why not raze their improvements in case the tile flips back? :

Turn 201: Hermitage in Hangzhou (cultural wedge).

Turn 205: Despite seeing multiple Egyptian and Dutch caravels, China proved the world is round!

Turn 207: Democracy to MM for 80/economics.

Turn 209: GM/GS into 2nd GA.

Turn 213: Lib/Demo to Egypt for Astronomy/150.

Turn 216: RP to WvO for 325/gunpowder, RP/Lib to MM for MilTrad/40. MilTrad/DR to Egypt for 220/SciMethod.

Turn 219: SoL in Beijing.

Turn 220: Lib to JC for 220, WK for 130.

Spoiler :

--Last turn of 24 turn GA I revolted into emancipation/free market.
--Left Rep given SoL and specialists. Left Bureaucracy given capital making 429 bpt.
--Is this the "right" thing to do re civics. I did a test and without bureaucracy total bpt went down 10% from 1047 to 929.

Turn 221: Physics GS!

Analysis

Spoiler :

Post GA demo

Spoiler :

Tech parity

Spoiler :

Culture bomb progression

Spoiler :

**check this latter pic versus above, my culture is reaching Pyongyang

Also need to manage my forbidden palace better. I just moved capital, so was thinking I'll put FP in Beijing. However, Versailles is only 6 turns in Beijing so doing that now, so back to the question of where to put FP? I'm gearing up for

Spoiler :

WvO so I could put it in Amsterdam

but can others tell me what they did/do with FP on this map?

 

[WorstChord]

Hey all. Trying to get back into the swing of Civ IV after a long hiatus. Managed to win a bunch of games on Monarch, so am using this as my first attempt at Emperor. Welp!

Emperor / Epic (To 80BC)

Spoiler :

Map 80BC

Spoiler :

I thought these NC games were supposed to be gentle? This is a tough map for my first Emperor game! Feel a bit like I've been thrown in at the deep end.

Built GLH in the capital. Seemed like a good map to take advantage of trade routes. Plus I might as well try and get some milage out of the lousy Protective trait by coupling this with some cheap Castles. So yeah, that felt like a no brainer. Built it in 1500BC.

Stuck the second city down by the pigs and silver, because I just did not feel like having a city around the wine. Figured the gold and happy from the silver would be of greater benefit in the early game.

Expanded west. Got to the flood plains before Willem. Took Kushens from the barbs. Not much use until it expanded, but as least then it'd be able to work the cows, corn and dye (plus the oasis), and it's coastal. Worth keeping. Decided to stick a city on Mansa and Ramses' continent while I had the chance, as it just seemed to have more going for it than any other land near me. Then built the fish/silk city in the north, which should be able to run a couple of great scientists.

Regarding further expansion; there's a coastal barb city north of Xian in the jungle, which has iron, gems, and 2 dye within the BFC. Currently building a stack of swordsmen to take it. After that I'm stuck with my lousy land. Can probbaly settle some mediocre towns around the wine, on the east coast and stick one on the west coast around the tundra resources. Not great, but should get me up to 10.

Willem is in the lead tech wise. Not surprising when you consider that Amsterdam is the Buddhist holy city, has gold, and a cottage spam going on. He's the only other civ with Alphabet right now. I've done a bit of trading with him, but once I got Alphabet myself (traded Caldendar with him for it), I'm keen to do my tech trading elsewhere. Don't want him getting too far ahead.

Tech-wise I prioritised getting GLH ASAP. Then got Writing, started towards Mathematics, but had a change of heart and decided to go Aesthetics -> Literature instead. Why? I figured I wasn't going to research Alphabet and would trade for it, plus I know the AI doesn't prioritise that line usually (which would give me some trading equity), and I fancied getting The Great Library (thanks to having access to Marble - built it around 150BC). I then went Mathematics -> Calendar -> Currency. Prioritised Calendar because I needed it to work luxury resources, as I was having problems with the happiness. Plus I can trade it around, as I have no intentions of building the MoM.

Got Iron Working and an old tech from Willem for Aesthetics, then as mentioned earlier traded Calendar for Alphabet. Then did a big trade with Wang Kon to get Metal Casting and some more old techs along the religion line, giving him Calendar and Aesthetics.

Currently running Slavery/Organised Religion (OR gives diplo boost with Ramses, which is needed due to our differing religions)

Going forward; I've got a Great Scientist sitting around which I'm going to use to bulb Machinery after researching Compass. This will give me access to Harbours and Cho-Ko-Nus. I then might prioritise getting Engineering to access cheap Castles (might as well milk these trade routes for all they're worth) and possibly build the Notre Dame, while attempting to bulb my along to Liberalism? Not really sure what to with regards to war (and I will have to attack Willem at some point, there's no getting around this). Might give it a miss until I've got Rifling.

 

[hankinsohl]

Spoiler :

Emperor, normal speed, no huts/events to 100 AD

This looks like a very tough map. Nearby land is very bad. Originally I thought I'd go for an early war... but stone in the bfc made me change strategy.

I settled in place, researched fishing while producing a warrior while exploring nearby land with my warrior.

With the stone and the terrible land I decided to spam wonders. So I researched Masonry next while producing a second warrior. I improved the corn and once Masonry was in, the stone. Once the fishing boat was out I started on Stonehenge and then TGW. I researched Sailing next followed by BW.

I successfully built SH and TGW and queued a lighthouse which I changed to a settler just before BW came in. As soon as BW completed, I revolted, whipped out the settler with overflow to my lighthouse.

I settled my 2nd city to the south, on the coast next to the deer, moving sans escort, 1 square at a time for safety. I took this slight risk because my capital would be busy spamming wonders for the next few turns.

After completing TGL (whipped to ensure success), I immediately started on the Pyramids.

My initial build in city 2 was a Settler - a bit unusual, but the capital was busy. My lone worker moved south to improve the deer and hook up the silver.

By 100 AD I'd built these wonders in the capital: SH, TGW, TGL, the Pyramids.

I also discovered a nice cottage site next to some marble to the west. My 4th city went there. Due to the marble I decided to tech towards music, preparing for the usual cuirassier attack later on.

It's a bit of a strange game - I've expanded to 6 cities which may be my limit as I'm boxed in now with no food sources left. But 2 of the AIs have only 3 cities and the biggest civ has only 7 cities.

I'm at tech parity but discovered Literature only after 2 other AIs already had this tech. I'm going to try hard for TGLib but might miss out on it. Music is close so I'll probably get a free artist out of that.

Presently, I'm running Representation b/c of the limited number of cities I have and the poor land; I'm running 2 scientists everywhere I can.

I've had a GP and a GSpy pop - I settled the prophet in my capital and sent my GSpy out reconnoitering.

I have iron and horses available. Religions are split - good in that it makes war between the AIs more likely - bad b/c I border several different civs which prevents me from taking a religion.

The plan is to tech Nationalism, and to win Liberalism, taking Military Tradition. I should be able to do this and have a tech lead on several AIs. I'll probably take out The Dutch first as they're large and may attack you even at pleased.

My world map looks pretty similar to WorstCord's:

 

[georgjorge]

Playing this on Deity, feels like one of Fippy's masochistic maps...

Spoiler :

Settled on Stone, built the Great Wall as it took 15 turns for an AI to find me and I expected lots of barbs. They didn't come however. Then built the Pyramids while settling Pigs + double Silver. A while later, started building a Settler in my second city before realizing there was absolutely no land I wanted to settle left - barbs spawned by the beautiful Marble + Sheep + Floodplains spot, and I'm sure someone is going to conquer that city before me. The islands are all taken. No ideal how I'm going to win this with two cities, Pyramids is giving me nice research but I don't have enough production for a war of any kind. Oh, and I got a Great Engineer from the Pyramids who could make a Great Library or a Great Lighthouse (not so strong with only two cities).

I think I'll try a second time with map knowledge and go for Great Lighthouse and early Galleys instead of Pyramids, see how that works out. Still don't expect more than four cities.

 

[dalamb]

re map toughness:

Spoiler :

I haven't been doing well IMHO, but better than I expected when I'd noticed the land around us wasn't so great. I think I've been spoiled by my own maps. Maybe message 2 needs a spoilered "advice re this map" that points out it's a little tougher than usual, so don't go up a level like WorstChord did?

Didn't think of founding a city on Ramesses continent (!) but I should have. Maybe that would have made things easier -- with the extra income at least. Plus a good staging ground for an eventual war against Mansa. Him and Willem being the priority targets because of their high tech rates.

 

[Izuul]

Well the starting screen shot coupled with a pretty mediocre leader is a good clue it's going to be a tougher game. I think after 10-12 turns of exploration this assumption could be largely confirmed or denied.

I wouldn't have a problem with anyone starting on one difficulty and then restarting the game after 10-12 turns to play on a more appropriate level.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

Maybe message 2 needs a spoilered "advice re this map" that points out it's a little tougher than usual, so don't go up a level like WorstChord did?

Done.

Didn't think of founding a city on Ramesses continent (!) but I should have. Maybe that would have made things easier -- with the extra income at least. Plus a good staging ground for an eventual war against Mansa.

I thought that was a fairly obvious move, inter continental trade routes without much of a distance penalty.

Him and Willem being the priority targets because of their high tech rates.

Willem I can understand, he's close by on our own continent and he's a back-stabber but Mansa is a great trade partner and normally someone you want to keep alive.

 

[georgjorge]

Deity, second try...

Spoiler :

The Great Lighthouse has been built in 1760BC...but not by me.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Spoiler :

Had some time this morning so had a quick play, just at Noble and very casual, have 5 cities online with a 6th on the way. One is on the other island and I'm building The Great Lighthouse. Have The Great Wall, Stonehenge and the Oracle (Metal Casting). First GP was a Prophet so bulbed Theology and will try for an AP win. Not a great map but OK for Noble where you're much more likely to be able to beat Willem to the various sites around the Flood Plains. I guess Nobles might not be as quick to realise the significance of settling on the other Continent.

 

[dmd175]

Spoiler :

re other continent:

I was trying to get over there, but I needed or felt I needed my forces and settlers to move west and claim the flood plain. I'll have to revisit old saves bc I saw Egypt troops on the island quickly, and I didn't want an isolated outpost that could prove hard to defend. At the time, Ram was annoyed at me (religion) but now has been pleased for ain't time despite different religion (good trade I guess)

 

[Noble Zarkon]

@dmd175

Spoiler :

re other continent:

I was trying to get over there, but I needed or felt I needed my forces and settlers to move west and claim the flood plain.

Yeah no doubt that would be much more challenging on Emperor than on Noble.

 

[dalamb]

Spoiler :

I guess Nobles might not be as quick to realise the significance of settling on the other Continent.

Or some near-Monarchs, like me. It was a Duh! moment when I read the comment about settling there.

Anybody have some general comments on when/how to use cho-ko-nu (or even crossbowmen)? I've hardly ever built any, and suspect something is missing in my strategic knowledge. I don't use them for defence, and my usual "early" attacks are either axe rush or sword/cat or mace/cat. Are a bunch of cho-ko-nu a reasonable substitute for catapults? or do they come too late in the tech tree?

 

[lymond]

Spoiler :

Or some near-Monarchs, like me. It was a Duh! moment when I read the comment about settling there.

Anybody have some general comments on when/how to use cho-ko-nu (or even crossbowmen)? I've hardly ever built any, and suspect something is missing in my strategic knowledge. I don't use them for defence, and my usual "early" attacks are either axe rush or sword/cat or mace/cat. Are a bunch of cho-ko-nu a reasonable substitute for catapults? or do they come too late in the tech tree?

It depends a bit on the level, ofc. On high levels chokes have a short life, if any life at all. AZ has demonstrated choke rushes on Deity though.

Basically you want to try to rush Machinery as best you can either with a GE or GS. GS bulb of Machinery can be difficult, especially if Fishing is pretty much a must for the start. Oracle MC can be good for quick forge and build Mids if you can, but you have to beat the GP from Oracle.

On lower levels you might just tech up to Machinery as fast you can though. Oracle MC at least or Machinery itself if fast enough.

Chokes are very strong on lower levels like say Monarch to at least take out 1 to 2 AIs, if not more. Basically just build them en masse and go stomp. The collateral the give on attack makes cats unnecessary. Generally give Combat or Cover promos to them, they are already strong against any melee units. Only thing to worry about is if the AI has Horse Archers, so you might throw in a spear or two in that case. If they happen to get Elies before you attack it will be tough unless you snipe their ivory first.

Spoiler :

(I did take out Willie and Wang on this map with chokes...and used a GE on Machinery..built Mids, ofc)

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Noble - No Huts, No Events, Standard Speed, Religious victory in 1615AD

Spoiler :

Played pretty sloppily while watching something on TV so quite content with this. Biggest delay was getting a missionary to Alexander - he didn't have any religion so had to send him a non-AP one first. Capped WK with CKNs (so he would be forced to vote for me) and Willem was about done when I won the vote thanks to getting Rameses to Pleased. After missing the first vote converted to Christianity (AP religion) and forced WK to as well for double votes - forgot that meant he would be my opponent!! Had to switch him out of it for the next vote - the best elections are those where you have no opponent!

 

[hankinsohl]

Emperor, no huts/events - Diplomation 1820

Spoiler :

Police State cuirassiers took care of the Koreans, and cavalry took out the Dutch. I wiped the Dutch off the face of the earth as there was no compelling reason to keep them around (I left the Koreans with 4 cities).

With my starting continent largely to myself I began the long slow process of preparing for overseas battle with the Greeks. After what seemed like forever, I transported a huge cavalry army to the Greek shores where they met a few musketeers and many other outdated defenders. In short order I captured every single Greek city.

Mid-way through my preparation for an Infantry assault on the Romans, the UN was built. I was pretty close to a domination victory which I would have secured in 20-30 turns by wiping out the Romans. However, a diplomatic victory vote came up and I won since Egypt voted for me due to shared religion.

All-in-all, the game went a lot easier than I expected. Each AI was very limited in land, split religions slowed trade to a crawl and I was able to capitalize on my early tech advantage thanks to wonder spamming.

 

[sinimusta]

@Mikehendi

Spoiler :

Took a look at your game. Your techpath sounds ok, but I'm not so sure about city placement. Your 2nd city is too slow without food resource in the first ring. Then settling a couple of blockers was probably quite expensive in maintenance. Commenting the early game is bit hard since the save is already so late.

I think you should have been faster with your steel rush. You could have prebuilt trebuchets which would then change to cannons before unlocking steel, you could have built muskets and stuff in advance. I noticed you hadn't used any Golden Ages, a GA for getting GSs for bulbing could have won you lib or you could have farmed GMs for trade missions (upgrade gold, trebs->cannons) and also swithed into reli and war civics (especially nationhood would be great here). Drafting would have been a good way to get out muskets fast to go along with the cannons.

One strange thing I noticed is that your cities have no whip weariness. That is very bad if you were trying to prepare for a war (and bad overall). PH-mines just outright lose to whipping and in war speed is everything so you should have used the whip.

With cannons, warring against enemies with rifling and airships is doable. I played your save a bit further mainly to test how a war against Dutch would work out. Stopped when Amsterdam was captured, and I think I could have taken the rest. Played it for fun, so workers were autoed and I didn't micro or care about long term, just tested the war. I think the game would be still winnable, get land with cannons, then tech to nukes and kill the AIs.

 

[Mikehendi]

@Sinimusta

Spoiler :

Thanks for looking at my game!

You know, indeed it's really strange that I have no whip anger at all... Usually I do all that stuff, the GM thing, stacking whip anger etc.

I think I was reluctant to whip my cities down while being so far behind in tech, or maybe I was trying to get to rifling first and get my cities to grow as much as possible for, I can't remember exactly. I think I lost motivation the last 10 turns or so, and didn't really micro anymore.

2nd city should have gone next to the pigs indeed. I thought I could afford the blockers due to GLH, but forgot about toroidal superhigh maintenance.

Winning lib wasn't possible I think, the Ai's had paper before I did, and by the time I got education someone had it already together with philosophy (Which I didn't have). AI's were viciously trading techs the moment they got em, so I felt forced to immediately trade education (and finally trade myself back in the game somewhat), I lacked all sorts of techs like music, engeneering, machinery, all those techs you usually can get earlier by trading+brokering techs like drama and CS. I was just too far behind in tech.

I'm impressed by your warring, taking cities with cannons/muskets while willem has rifles running around... how did you defend your stack/cannons? Did Willem ever counterattack? I must admit that warring while at tech parity or even behind in tech isn't my strongest point.

I think I'll try to replay from 4000BC, learn from the mistakes made and see how much it plays out differently.

 

[sinimusta]

@Mikehendi

Spoiler :

About the war: the AI doesn't counterattack too much unless it has a large offensive stacks. Willem did do a lot of small counterattacks and sometimes threw some suicide siege, but AI does it very stupidly. The attacks are separated, not concentrated.A human player could easily used massed cavalry attack and flank my cannons to death, but AI does only small, separated cavalry attacks, so flanking damage didn't kill my siege.

One thing to remember is that I played the war with no concern about post-war economy, so you might have noticed high draft/whip anger.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Emperor, no huts/events - Diplomation 1820

Well done