Nobles' Club CVI Mansa Musa of the Mali

[Doshin]

@pepe26

Spoiler :

I think it's all over. To attack, you ideally need (1) a strong production base; (2) a big military tech advantage; (3) a large number of outdated troops that can be insta-upgraded with a GM. You lack all three, and Pericles and Freddy are both one tech away from Rifles.

If you want to play it out, you need to bribe Frederick against Pericles immediately, while building Cannons and Rifles on the side. Distracting Pericles and then smashing him with siege is the only way you might survive. Cavalry will get their asses kicked in 1-10 turns, so don't build those.

The real problem is that Pericles has a vassal, which will make him very reluctant to capitulate. It's also twice as likely that one of the two will get to Assembly Line before you.

edit: now that I think about it, no iron = no cannons.

 

[Kingjester1]

To 400 AD (Emperor/Epic):

Spoiler :

Tech path: Literature -> CoL -> Monotheism -> Math (stolen from Greece) -> Calendar (for Mono, Meditation, IW, gold from Greece) -> Construction (trade for CoL, Freddie) -> Civil Service -> HBR (unlocks 'phants) -> Monarchy (needed happiness) -> Metal Casting

Kind of a sleepy segment. My 2nd GP was another Great Spy (ugh), so I built Scotland Yard in the cap where the settled Great Spy is. This provided enough EP for me to teal a tech (Math) from Greece, while quickly getting back to city investigation level points.

I got up to 9 cities at this point. A barb city appeared 2 SW of the Iron in the east at some point, which I captured in 280 AD. I settled 1 SW of the northern Stone tile, as well as a city 1 SE of the Iron itself. I still have 1 good site in the Fish site in the north, but I'm pretty much done settling. I was able to keep pace with Workers, getting 12 with #13 coming in a few turns.

I have my 3rd GP ready to pop, likely my first Great Scientist. I'm moving my captial to the floodplains/Gold site and will build an Academy there to make a super science city, leaving the cap to work some minor river cottages and hills for production. I'll be producing some Mints and 'phants to mass upgrade to Currs later since I now have iron. I plan to vassalize everyone on my continent, although wiping out whole civs is always appealing

I did successfully build the Great Library. I've been surprised at how slow the wonder and tech pace has been this game. Then again, Mansa is one of the best civs for producing high tech so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[SlickEddie]

To 1535AD

Spoiler :

I started over. Moving away from the wet corn made it impossible to win. I settled my capital 1S on the wine this time. I played pretty much the same as last time, except this time I had 5 cities + 1 settler by 1AD.

I had no metals so I built Cats and Phants, and rolled over Greece. Midway through the war, he peace vasseled to Fred, and Fred attacked me. I took my Spi trait and went back into slavery (was in Caste) to get troops on the other front. I was able to cap 2 or 3 of Fred's cities before finishing off Pericles. I then sued for peace with Fred.

Every other Civ is so far behind in Tech it's not even funny. I was able to sell CoL to the other continent. I have a huge tech lead. (I think it's all the riverside cottages )
My next plans are to tech up to Cuirs, and stomp Germany for defying me. I will prolly go for a Space or Diplo Victory.

State of the Empire:

What used to be Greece

Finally the core of my Empire

Following your guy's advice was the best thing I've done Thanks! Any other tips before I wrap this up will be appreciated!

 

[AbsoluteZero]

@pepe26

Spoiler :

I beelined curis and then realized i hadnt/couldnt get a hold of iron -.- so i beelined rifling which finished this turn. i immediately switched into nationhood, police state, theocracy

Hopefully you got the mids late just by building it haphazardly in one of your border cities. Hopefully you didn't waste large amounts of early game hammers from your capitol to build the mids when you had plenty of cottagable / high yield financial tiles to work in your capitol This was probably your first mistake.

Rep scientists give +6 research and no food ( and yes of course some GPP )

A financial, riverside, floodplain town gives +6 commerce and 3 food.

Hands down the better choice is to save 200 crucial early game hammers and skip the mids, UNLESS you can pick them up later by, say, chopping a bunch of forests in one of your later cities. Even then I would consider the +400 failgold instead. Really the only thing the mids give me if I'm financial is police state. Nice to have if you plop down a fresh city in the middle of some tundra forests or something, but I'm not going to stunt my growth for it.


i just got it this turn and need to attack the greek here. they are totally outta control. unfortunately they got military science so i cant really build rifleman and got to go for mass cavalry... do i stand a chance in hell to pull this off?

It looks to me like you got 6 cities and stopped for some reason, why? You let him get too big by settling your land. You can still take down a 14 city AI with 6 cities but you need to do it a lot smarter. You should have 20+ elephants or horse archers ready to upgrade when you get to rifling. You don't have that, and I'm not sure why. Why are you saving all that gold?

Cavalry can beat grenadeers, however you're going to need lots of them and you're off to a bad start, and he'll probably get rifling halfway through the attack.

My guess is bribing freddy on him and then attacking from behind later with cannons might do the job. I think you could win this one if you played it perfectly and had a little luck.

 

[vranasm]

@pepe+AZ

Spoiler :

something very similar happens on Immortal too. Both Freddy and Pericles can easily get 10-12 cities and they will up to cca 1 AD.

I didn't have much problem with expanding into reasonable number of cities myself, but I can see the Mids trap here... biggest problem here is imo no good city 2 if you go the natural way south which severely limits your expansion.

you can get Iron in the east, on Immortal I had it under control somewhat, on deity though...

not good map for highest levels imo.

 

[pepe26]

thanks for the input, guys, i really appreciate it

so in resumé, i feel like i learned 3 things here:

1) dont get mids unless you plan to specialize the economy a lot more than i did (advantage of finacial FPs, more hammers into settlers/workers, fail gold)

Spoiler what i did: :

since you asked about how i got them: i rushed them early in my cap with lots of chops now that you have told me not to, i kinda see the mistake as well... i just didnt look at it as differenciatedly as you did, pointing out the financial commerce tiles vs the scientist ones. i have to admit that i usually just get them to get rep and boost the happy cap

2) put a lot more emphasis on GMs especially the timing for war preparation upgrading...

3) have out-dated troops ready to get great-merchantinized into state-of-the-art uber-imba-killers
on immortal, it often way enough to just start pumping the newest-tech units once you get the tech... i guess this is one of the things i need to learn if i wanna be able to beat deity


basic strategy for this map...?

Spoiler :

considering the no-iron problem, im kinda at a loss when to attack here... its either gonna have to be very early with HAs. but honestly, at that point there is so much territory to settle and no knowledge of the imminent iron-crisis and its always gonna have to be pericles since the other once are to far away. the biggest issue that i see is, if you do this early attack anyway, you will give freddy a free-pass to settle 20+ cities and he will probably at some point vassal mao... also pretty much a nightmare considering he is a decently strong AI on top of it
the next timing for an attack comne much later when iron isn need as much anymore with rifling... but with no cannons, seriously? actually, i have been able to acquire iron later from the other continent for a measly 20GPT. at that point i could have probably used old cats to upgrade to cannons

early war is no options, i think, mid-game with no copper or iron, too, then. so in conclusion: rex as much as possible with no mids or any other wonderwhoring (i even got the hanging garden in the commerce city and the tajmahal in 400AD with a great engineer)

regarding the strong production base thing, doshin: do you cosider the production in the cap, in djenne and in navajo to be insufficient? i was rather satisfied by the hammer output, honestly, but im a noob obviously so i might be wrong

 

[Noble Zarkon]

@pepe26

Spoiler :

considering the no-iron problem, im kinda at a loss when to attack here..

You're Mansa Musa on a map with no irons - why is war such a big priority. I only play at Prince so maybe it's very different higher up but with a leader like him war is not my first thought.

 

[pepe26]

@pepe26

Spoiler :

You're Mansa Musa on a map with no irons - why is war such a big priority. I only play at Prince so maybe it's very different higher up but with a leader like him war is not my first thought.

because you cant win vs multiple AIs who got double or more the cities that you do peacefully... at some point they will run away in tech so bad, that youre left in the stoneages. financial is great early game but gets less strong late game. the AIs pace of tech becomes sick! its hard enough to keep up on immortal but on deity i cant do it... maybe some people can but certainly not me.
usually with good starts and financial leaders, I am so much ahead in tech after in the early mid game that it feels like a won game already, only to watch the AIs come back later to be a hazard once again

maybe i will give this another shot with no mids and heavy rexxing early game

 

[dalamb]

Re the mids:

Spoiler :

I'm playing at Monarch, so the issues may be different from what people have said about higher levels. I see the comments about the 'mids being a trap unless you're building them in an unimportant city -- that you need the for other things in the early game. I see the comments that Representation isn't so useful on a low-food map like this one. I believe all that -- but I was building the 'mids somewhat for early-game HR without having to tech monarchy, and mostly for later-game Universal Suffrage pre-Democracy. With a FIN leader and good cottaging of the floodplains, it seemed possible that I could be running US and Caste and be able to rush-buy in some low-production cities (since whipping in low-food cities might be counterproductive).

Is this analysis wrong? I accept it's wrong at higher levels.

Re a Certain Resource:

Spoiler :

I was surprised about the comment on "no iron for cannons" because there's iron 'way off to the east (at least on the Monarch Huts save). In your games did Pericles expand to take it before you could? Is it too far away from the capital (and thus too expensive) to try to claim it before he gets there?

Re warfare:

Spoiler :

I didn't figure out how skirmishers could help on a no-copper, far-away-iron map, other than that they're somewhat better protection against barb spears and archers than regular archers would be (chariots take care of warriors and axemen). How did our Fearless Mapmaker intend them to be used? I feel uneasy that I must have missed something important.

It seems to me that a catophant or elepult attack is going to be best (I still need a few techs before doing so). The issue is, how soon? I figure I'd finish math, HBR, build stables while teching construction, build an SOD, then take out Pericles. and possibly Mao. But won't I need CoL/courthouses and Currency before an actual attack, to survive economically?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

I didn't figure out how skirmishers could help on a no-copper, far-away-iron map, other than that they're somewhat better protection against barb spears and archers than regular archers would be (chariots take care of warriors and axemen). How did our Fearless Mapmaker intend them to be used? I feel uneasy that I must have missed something important.

You've basically got it, didn't think they would be a huge part of the game but I thought with no nearby metal and an Archery based UU that they wouldn't get totally skipped over like they normally do. Also with horses nearby I thought some people might go the HA route.

Bottom line - you're thinking too deeply, I've only just moved up to Prince

 

[pepe26]

Re the mids:

Spoiler :

I'm playing at Monarch, so the issues may be different from what people have said about higher levels. I see the comments about the 'mids being a trap unless you're building them in an unimportant city -- that you need the for other things in the early game. I see the comments that Representation isn't so useful on a low-food map like this one. I believe all that -- but I was building the 'mids somewhat for early-game HR without having to tech monarchy, and mostly for later-game Universal Suffrage pre-Democracy. With a FIN leader and good cottaging of the floodplains, it seemed possible that I could be running US and Caste and be able to rush-buy in some low-production cities (since whipping in low-food cities might be counterproductive).

Is this analysis wrong? I accept it's wrong at higher levels.

Re a Certain Resource:

Spoiler :

I was surprised about the comment on "no iron for cannons" because there's iron 'way off to the east (at least on the Monarch Huts save). In your games did Pericles expand to take it before you could? Is it too far away from the capital (and thus too expensive) to try to claim it before he gets there?

Re warfare:

Spoiler :

I didn't figure out how skirmishers could help on a no-copper, far-away-iron map, other than that they're somewhat better protection against barb spears and archers than regular archers would be (chariots take care of warriors and axemen). How did our Fearless Mapmaker intend them to be used? I feel uneasy that I must have missed something important.

It seems to me that a catophant or elepult attack is going to be best (I still need a few techs before doing so). The issue is, how soon? I figure I'd finish math, HBR, build stables while teching construction, build an SOD, then take out Pericles. and possibly Mao. But won't I need CoL/courthouses and Currency before an actual attack, to survive economically?

i dont see a reason to spoiler general discussion topics that dont spoiler the map so i will answer with no spoilers this time

the things you say about mids are true and part of it is the reason i love them... but on deity and immortal, as the others pointed out, grabbing territory is often the most important thing early game! because if you dont grab it fast, the AI will!
regarding the iron-crisis: yes, dear-ol' greaco perikles settled around my attempt to landblock and had the iron settled before i got there.

skirmishers are great to steal workers and choke the AI. its a hard thing to do tho without falling behind to the other AIs... ive read solid deity player say: "i cant workersteal/choke" for real tak-a-city offense, they are pretty much useless, except if you have tons of siege, which also works with warriors, tho

the cataphant idea is good, actually, i hadnt thought of it, silly me... problem was, that my southern city got culture pressed at the time, so that i lost control over the ivory. culture whores like perry arent easy neighbors to handle early game.

regarding the cataphant vs elepult... frankly, i dont get the difference. in another thread i read about it, too, and thought the guys was kidding. maybe you can point out the thought behind it

 

[SlickEddie]

@pepe

Percy does culture press you hardcore. I was able to keep control of the ivory by whipping a library and dropping a conf missionary in there so I could keep up with his +2 culture per turn. I was able to get the border to pop early and didn't feel much pressure afterwards.

And the cataphants is the way to go on the attack. I wasn't able to attack until almost 1000AD.

 

[Kingjester1]

@pepe And the cataphants is the way to go on the attack. I wasn't able to attack until almost 1000AD.

@SlickEddie

Spoiler :

By 1000 AD you could have had Currs (if you can snag the iron in the east) or Cavalry to attack with. For catapults, you need to get Construction relatively quickly in order to build out an army, as you'll need to produce 2 kinds of units at once when making your stack (you could upgrade Chariots, but that is really pricy earlier in the game). With elepults you skip Stables if needed, as getting a stack out quickly is very important to catch an opponent off guard.

 

[pepe26]

jester, whats the difference between elepult and cataphant, i dont get it...

 

[Doshin]

@pepe26

Spoiler :

regarding the strong production base thing, doshin: do you cosider the production in the cap, in djenne and in navajo to be insufficient? i was rather satisfied by the hammer output, honestly, but im a noob obviously so i might be wrong

They're good production cities for sure, you just don't have enough of them. Without whipping, you can produce 15 or so Cavalry in 12 turns. Let's assume that Pericles doesn't get Rifling right away: after you take a city (~5 defenders), he'll still smack you down with Cannons, Knights, and Grenadiers. Mao will have a stack of his own too, probably with Elephants.

A draft Rifle war would up your production tremendously, but the Globe theater is a crucial build here: if you'd planned for Rifles and Trebs, you could have successfully broken out.

The attack options for the map, I think, are (a) Elepult; (b) grab Iron, Lib. MT, Cuir to Cavalry rush; (c) draft Rifles, with some form of siege.

 

[SlickEddie]

@jester

Spoiler :

How could I have Curs by 1000AD? I have a massive tech lead on everyone, so I have no one to trade/steal tech from. Plus the Iron was stolen by a barb city, who Germany captured. I just got the Iron in my game after my elepults war.

I suppose if I rexed east instead of getting the ivory I could've made it. Also, my attack date may be off I just know by 1590 Percy is dead, and I capped 3 German cities with my elepaults.

My general question to everyone here is, If you keep using the whip, how do you deal with the stacked unhappiness? In some of my cities I have 30+ turns of added unhappiness. Other than keep whipping which will compound the problem, How do I get rid of it all? I put in temples and theaters, but once they hit pop 6 they are unhappy.

 

[pepe26]

@pepe26

Spoiler :

They're good production cities for sure, you just don't have enough of them. Without whipping, you can produce 15 or so Cavalry in 12 turns. Let's assume that Pericles doesn't get Rifling right away: after you take a city (~5 defenders), he'll still smack you down with Cannons, Knights, and Grenadiers. Mao will have a stack of his own too, probably with Elephants.

A draft Rifle war would up your production tremendously, but the Globe theater is a crucial build here: if you'd planned for Rifles and Trebs, you could have successfully broken out.

The attack options for the map, I think, are (a) Elepult; (b) grab Iron, Lib. MT, Cuir to Cavalry rush; (c) draft Rifles, with some form of siege.

as far as im informed, whipping on these citgy sizes is very much less efficient than in small cities... it might even already have become less efficient than non-whipping
or am i wrong?

 

[Kingjester1]

@SlickEddie

Spoiler :

Ah, I didn't see that Iron was out of reach in your play. In any case, elephants and catapults are a tech that comes fairly early, so continuing warfare until 1000 AD on those units can be a problem on higher difficulty levels. For breakouts, you have to balance infrastructure techs and the military techs you need. In the case of this map, production sites are few and far between, so you need leverage something to produce 2 new kinds of units at the same time when Construction comes in. That means you are going to want your Barracks and Stables ready to go when you ramp up unit production. In some cases you may be able to snag Metal Casting early for Mints since Mansa can run a high tech rate, but the earlier you go to war the faster you can start recovering.

In my case, I skipped a elephants/catapult breakout due to how much better my tech rate was than my opponents. By maximizing my economy while participating in a religious love fest, I could afford far flung cities to the east to capture Iron and then go for a Currs breakout. Had I not been able to capture Iron, in my case I would have gone with Rifling/Trebs breakout, with Trebs upgraded to Cannons at the first opportunity.

Remember, wars are fought to put you ahead, so fast and furious is the name of the game. Know when you are going to hit your military techs, prepare infrastructure for it, and then produce your stack as fast as possible, esp. when using 1 movement point units like elephants.

 

[ohjames]

@slickeddie:

If you run HR you can abuse the whip heartily because the units will temporarily provide happiness until you move them out. You can abuse 2-3 cities by whipping them down from 4-5 pop each to quickly build one or two stacks of attackers and siege - then park warriors/skirmishers there after you move your stacks out.

Those cities will be mad for a while, so build/capture 2-3 new whip cities and abuse THOSE for the next wave.

 

[dalamb]

regarding the cataphant vs elepult... frankly, i dont get the difference. in another thread i read about it, too, and thought the guys was kidding. maybe you can point out the thought behind it

As far as I know there is no difference. I was channelling Eletelephony.