Noble's Club CXLVIII - Huayna Capac of the Incas

[blunderwonder]

I must be an incorrigible eccentric, because I have never tried a Quecha rush, on any level. What is wrong with me?

Anyway, to me that looks like a frustrating capital because it's food poor. On the other hand, it reminds me of those starts Seriael posted in the awesome starts thread that were chosen for HoF Quecha rushing.

I'm not crazy about forum maps that are tailored for specific play, as for me a big part of the infinite fascination of reading people's writeups is the variety of different ways people play the same map. Not sure we'll see much of that here. I do get that this is what the Noble's Club is really about, though, and that's fine.

Spoiler :

I dont usually care for different styles, i like to have something to measure against, but I should play this map, but probably wont. These big and small maps are great for people on noble and lower though because it forces some thought about expanding and getting the proper number of workers etc, + island towns and whatnot. Ive always wanted to make a colony to tech for me, if they could get some key wonders or whatnot they could even be useful on this map, as you can probably crank out settlers way faster than you can afford to settle them, and theres tons of islands and trade routes to be had. Bleh i hate being able to settle 20 cities "almost" peacefully though.

As for the rush stuff, i dont think inca makes much difference, theres usually a way to perform some workable rush, whether its aggresive cover axes or HA's or swords or elepult. Either way, getting rid of a pain like juao or viccy is always a good thing, juao will get 50 cities if you let him.

 

[Gumbolt]

Just a thought.

Spoiler :

I think the map maker assumed we would get rid of 1-2 AI early on hence 8 AI on this map. Even so it should be quite easy to grab 20 cities on the starting land mass. Plus cottage over swathes of the land quite easily.

 

[NihilZero]

What we need is for Grashopa to come in here and post some completely bizarre, off-the-wall strategy that craps all over the obvious one, thus blowing all our minds and illuminating the endless incomprehensible mystery of civ. Unfortunately I think he's in semi-retirement.

I don't mean to sound like a fascist or anything, civ should be fun first and foremost. I'm sure this map is certainly fun!

 

[soundjata]

^ I heard he destroyed his computer with an axe

 

[TheSunIsDark]

I think I got pretty lucky in mine.

Spoiler :

Think the Incas are the only one in the game that starts with Mysticism. My chosen Quechua rush target (because I scouted east) was the one that founded Buddhism. Founded pretty late, turn 15. Hinduism was around turn 20. Did anyone get religions founded early by AIs in games with huts off?

 

[Gumbolt]

^ I heard he destroyed his computer with an axe

35 hammers and he chooses an axe? Madness I tell you!!!

 

[Gumbolt]

Update 1110ad

Spoiler :

Built MM wonder.

Used a Gspy to steal 5-6 techs from Hannibal.

Cranked up golden age and rushed to MT using lib.

Americans declared on me 3-4 turns before I had cuirs ready. His sword and axe took one of my smaller cities which I retook the next turn. 2-3 cities later and he capitulates.

I built 6 galleys near Hannibal. Landed 20 cuirs 6-7 turns after American war. After losing many units and 3 cities he capitulates even though he has 10 cities. 4 down 4 to go.

Hammy lost all his original 4 cities but then refused to talk. He has 4 other island/mainland cities somewhere.

Sulie is next on my attack radar. Need to heal and build up forces again.

 

[Izuul]

Deity 100 AD

Spoiler :

Settled in place and started on a couple 3T quecha while looking for a neighbor. I found Joao first and he seemed pretty close so he became the target.

Spoiler :

Punching bag!

I'm not sure how many 3T quecha i built, but it was probably around 10. 4 or 5 doesn't cut it on Deity, especially when intended target has hill cities. I gathered some troops and waited for the right moment, which is when the AI builds a settler and shuffles around troops.

Spoiler :

The settler took an archer for escort leaving just one in Oporto and he also moved one out of Lisbon that was caught between cities. This was the perfect time to DoW so i picked off the stray archer and then took out Oporto. It auto-razed which was probably OK but it didn't look like it could offer much for quite awhile. I think he ended up with 3 archers in Lisbon, but i had 6 quecha and was able to take the city without much issue. After that i hunted down the new city which was pretty far east and auto-razed that as well. I would've liked to have gotten more than 1 city, but just getting rid of a city-spammer like Joao is a pretty big boon, and i did also get 2 workers and a pretty strong city.

Spoiler :

I used some of the same guys to take out a pretty decent barb city, and i also unlocked the HE in the process.

Spoiler :

While this was going on i teched Mining > TW > Pottery first to connect cities and get some cottages started. After that i went for Masonry > BW and chopped out the Mids in Lisbon in 15xxBC. I settled the first city of my own 2N-3E of my cap, and also settled on the marble. The last city i settled myself went on the old ruins of Oporto. I teched Writing > Aesthetics and got this trade from Vicky:

Spoiler :

After that i had to step back and figure out which direction i wanted to go with this game. Vicky had settled the good FP sites and was teching very fast. Things were peaceful so i probably could've won Lib fairly easily, but i had no iron or horses at the time, and i didn't really feel like waiting for rifles or something. With ivory present i decided to go for the earlier rush and, after teching Currency > Lit and trading for Math, picked up Construction > HBR. With cottages blooming and some rep scientists i think i got both techs in 8T. I also chopped out TGL and built the NE in Tiwanuka.

In 150BC i attacked with this stack:

Spoiler :

10T later i have 3 pretty strong English cities and there hasn't been any sign of really strong resistance. I would like to take out a few more of her core cities and just cap her if she cooperates.

Spoiler :

Oh yeah, i have the MoM in Lisbon too. It's been a pretty strong city capable of doing a lot of different things.

Spoiler :

Looking at the big picture, I'm not too sure about Lib atm. I would be in great shape if not for Hannibal, who already has Education. Nevermind, I'm dumb. I have 1 bulb into Edu and another GS (93%) due in like 7-8T, but if i try for MT Lib i could very easily lose it. I think my best bet right now is to try to finish Edu and then i have the option of trading for Compass and bulbing Lib. From there i could just finish Lib and take Nationalism if Hannibal gets Paper. I'm really hoping he wastes his time on Banking and stuff though.

Spoiler :

Also, i may need to give up Buddhism now that I've met everyone else. Speaking of that, I;m not even sure how i met them all. Hammy showed up a good while back in a WB, but then i met Hannibal, Nappy, and Suleiman all on the same turn with no sign of their units anywhere.

 

[Gumbolt]

All done 1320 ad Domination immortal win.

Spoiler :

Rolled over rest of map with cuirs. Left the Romans be. Rest capitulated with little problems. Spent last 7 turns getting to 60% land. Had to settle 7-9 extra cities on islands. Probably should of captured more cities really.

Fun map really.

 

[Packers5280]

Izuul

Spoiler :

Actually Hannibal does not have Edu if your screen shot is correct. He has guilds, which allows him to research Gunpowder. He wants paper, which is a prerequisite for Edu. So I think libbing MT is pretty doable.

 

[Izuul]

Oh good call. I was thinking he got edu through theo, but that's paper > edu too.

 

[vranasm]

interesting how everytime there is a game with Inca on the forums it immediately turns into Quecha bashing.

I don't like the starting land area and I could totally see why someone would want to turn those 5 hpt in some better land immediately.

 

[NihilZero]

interesting how everytime there is a game with Inca on the forums it immediately turns into Quecha bashing.

I don't like the starting land area and I could totally see why someone would want to turn those 5 hpt in some better land immediately.

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I'll take the bait anyway.

If you take the time to read what I posted, you will see that at no point do I disparage Quechas, their way of life, or their mothers. I simply stated a personal preference for forum games that are not designed with one specific type of play in mind. Two very different things, my friend.

I do understand that this is the ethos of the Noble's Club, however, which makes sense as one of NC's aims is to introduce inexperienced players to the merits of a particular civ. Not much point in teaching people how to Quecha rush by starting them in isolation, or sandwiched between Mansa and Hammurabi.

Hells, I've never Quecha rushed, I guess I need to play this game and see what it's all about...

 

[vranasm]

^^ nah it's general observation... yeah I think this time you was mostly the most vocal one (but I think some posters before you did the THING but posted it in a way it sounded like they really don't like to do it ), but it's everytime and you're not everytime here do you?

Quechas are just too cheasy and that's why almost no one posts Inca games .

Would be interesting if someone actually took the effort and try to make some statistics of success with Inca since mostly people view Inca as lowering the difficulty 0.5-1 level.

 

[Gumbolt]

Non quelcha attempts??

Spoiler :

There is certainly the commerce to do something useful here but JoaII would spread quickly at start. I can see a very late settler here too. The lack of 102 decent food resources makes it a lot tougher. You would certainly need early BW and pottery unless you farmed out the flood plains?

The map almost appears to encourage quelcha rushing by design and the start.

 

[MegaLurker]

@Gumbolt:

Spoiler :

I think there is plenty of land for a non-quecha opening. You would probably start rushing settlers out with chops at size 3 or even 2 because the capital takes so long to grow. Grab the important spots inland (cow/marble, bronze/gold/FP, wet rice, dyes) all of which should be do-able even on Deity. I was even able to grab the seafood/gold/gems spot way to the north.

The tricky thing here is to decide what wonders to go for. Pyramids are obvious, but we know this map has a ton of islands so the GLH is also very strong. You probably can't do both and still get all the good land on the continent. Remember that with Currency and the GLH off-shore cities immediately bring in 13 commerce/turn not including any tiles except the city itself. If you scout well you will find an island with room for 2 cities, one of which will have iron in its small cross.

From there it's just a matter of deciding where to go. Culture would be fairly easy, but you could also leverage the good land and either rep specialists or the GLH trade income toward a military conquest of the continent which is a very manageable size.

Best opening tech path would be mining-BW-masonry-(fishing-sailing if going for GLH)-wheel-pottery-whatever. Going Pyramids is probably lower-effort because with the GLH you will have to race Joao to the best island spots.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Some general thoughts:-

Spoiler :

The map almost appears to encourage quelcha rushing by design and the start.

Almost? I thought I did better than that

As others have mentioned in Noble's Club as well as learning and having fun we like to exploit all the different Leader's and their traits rather than every game being beeline to MT and go stomping with Cuirs - although perhaps I should have removed Horses from anywhere near us as at least one person went that route anyway

If a Leader needs Bronze then bronze will be nearby etc, so it was appropriate to have some land that could be used to churn out Quecha's. Don't think it's an overpowered start, not much food unless you farm the Floodplains.

At Noble level even a Quecha rush still needs some thought - how many do I build before I start a war? Which cities do I keep and which do I raze? How do I manage my economy after the war? What path do I then take to leverage the land I have won?

These are all things Noble's can learn from more experienced players.

 

[dalamb]

Need some advice on city locations.

Spoiler :

I tried figuring out on my own where to plant cities once my economy is in somewhat better shape, then went reading other people's threads for city-placement advice. I noticed MegaLurker mentioning "cow/marble, bronze/gold/FP, wet rice, dyes" and realized none of my picks could be described that way. What I had come up with on my own was this in the north:

Spoiler north :

The two northernmost cities (pink and yellow) would block Lincoln nicely, but (a) he'll get there first unless I prioritize settlers, which I'm not sure my economy is quite ready for yet and (b) they aren't particularly great cities -- though if I get the GLH in 5 turns, they're a little better, being coastal.

In the south:

Spoiler South :

I went for flood plains.

Then I read MegaLurker's post and figured he meant several completely different sites, so I tried placing additional markers where I thought he was indicating (they overlap my original choices; both are shown here):

Spoiler Revised Central :

• Cow/marble (black) is my guess at where ML meant; Cow/bronze (blue) was my original.
• gold/wheat/FP (light green) was my original, given the placement of blue. bronze/gold/fp (another pink) is where I think ML meant
• I couldn't figure out the best place for ML's "dye" city

So, I'd appreciate some discussion on which city sites to use and why those are better than my original guesses.

 

[MegaLurker]

Re: city locations.

Spoiler :

Keep in mind I'm playing this on Deity so lots of what is available to you there was settled in my game long before I could ever get there. For example the wheat to the far east near the gold, the whole cow/rice area to the far north. The revised locations in your third image look best to me. A few tweaks though:

-If you settle the cow/marble city 2W it gets the copper in it's BFC, as well as a plains hill instead of a desert hil making it a far stronger production cityl. It can also work one additional cottage for the capital. All you give up is a single floodplain.

-Your green "just FP" city would be much stronger placed 1SW, where it gets the additional hammer on the city tile, picks up the plains cows in its BFC (a really underrated tile), and can eventually work the riverside spices or whatever they are as well. As you've placed it it will only ever have 2 riverside mines and farmed FPs.

-A city settled on the dyes 3N1E of the capital will get a 3 commerce city tile, can borrow the green cows from the rice city to grow, and can work cottages for the capital while leaving the corn to the west for another city.

I'd not bother settling more distant cities like the eastern wheat or the northern cows/rice.

 

[Olfart]

After reading some of the preceding posts, I'm embarrassed to post my results. When I play, I usually play on Noble (not all that well) at epic speed. Gave this one a shot at Prince on normal speed and finally managed a domination win in 1941. I've never even tried a map with this many leaders before. Seems like it took forever.

Spoiler :

Quecha rushed Joao and finished him off very early. Expanded peacefully until I ran out of room before elepulting Vicky and Abe vassaled. By then, I was way ahead in tech and military, so it was waiting to build enough Navy to invade Carthage. Vassaled him with Cavalry/Cannons. I had just about finished Hammy when he vassaled to Mehmed and forced peace. I just kept going and took out Mehmed and Hammy both. That got me close to dom limit, which happened right after I took on France.

I usually give up if I haven't won by the time infantry starts showing up, but I kept going on this one. By the end, my tech rate was over 2,000 BPT, a first for me, and I was pumping out air cav/mechanized infantry at a pretty good rate. Last save just before dom limit reached is attached if anyone is interested.