Nobles' Club XLVIII: Suryavarman II of the Khmer

[dalamb]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Suryavarman II of the Khmer. His traits are good for expansion; some people think his UU and UB are sub-standard:

• EXP means faster workers, granaries, and harbours, plus +2 per city. CRE means faster libraries, colosseums, and theatres, plus +2, so cities expand their borders without needing cultural buildings.
  
  
• His UB, the Baray: an aqueduct that gives +1 food. Requires Math and Masonry, which are the prerequisites for Construction, which is needed for the UU.
  
  
• His UU, the Ballista Elephant: a War Elephant that targets mounted units first outside of cities. This means they can avoid nasty pikes if there happen to be any horses to attack, but once you run out of mounted units you're stuck with a normal elephant. It does mean that a lowly enemy chariot-medic dies fast if the AI actually builds such medics, like most humans do.
  
  

And the start:

Spoiler show map details :

3 custom continents, low sea level, 3 extra AIs. Swapped us with an AI so we were nearer elephant territory. Changed most deserts to plains. Fixed up territory of AI who had a sucky start.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strategies don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 48 Sury Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

 

[dalamb]

Reserved.

 

[Sian]

going to give it a spin ... Surya is one of my preferred leaders atm ...

going Imm/epic/NoBarbs ...

 

[drlake]

I've been working on finishing out my Prince/Epic game as Darius (NC45?), but that can go back on hold in favor of this.

I'll be doing it on Monarch/Epic. I like the leader traits. The UB is kinda meh, since I don't typically build many aqueducts until late anyway. The UU is a nice improvement over the standard War Elephant, but I don't tend to rely on those so we'll see if I see much benefit out of it. I don't worry too much about the UU, anyway, since UUs are generally only really nice for a short period.

Interesting start decision to make. Settle in place nets two dry corn plus bananas, which won't be fully exploitable until Calendar. SIP also is a coastal start, but with no seafood visible. Lots of other green land in the area, plus three FH tiles visible. Could be a good location for either a Bur. capital or a GP farm.

Two other "obvious" options are settle on the hill where the scout is or settle on the banana. Either location adds the dry rice to the BFC, at a cost of one turn delay and moving off the coast. Settling the hill costs some since you can't chop it. Settling on the banana gives you the health benefit of connecting that right away, and boosts capital production 1 food (I think). Either option is off the river/coast, which puts greater importance on roads for connecting resources.

I'm going to think about this for a while (I doubt I'll start it before tomorrow) but my inclination is to settle in place and have a later city get the rice.

Tech path will be Agri > BW for sure, then probably TW (to hook up resources) > Granary (cottages!). I may stick AH in there if I find anything I can pasture in the region. I may also insert Fishing fairly early for a scout WB or if my second city can exploit seafood. The dry corn and rice suggest a real need for CS, to gain the benefits of irrigation for them, but that'll be a while down the road as well. I also have to keep in mind that I need to tech HBR to build the UU. Ah, the choices!

Thanks for the start, dalamb!

 

[TheDanish]

Alright, this will be my first Noble's Club game, as well as my first game on Noble difficulty. I recently stopped lurking the forums and started posting, and the NC looks like a great way to improve my game. Thanks for setting up this little scrap!

As for the start: it looks plentiful enough, so I settled in place. I generally avoid settling one tile off the coast, and I didn't want to waste two turns moving inland.

Went Worker > Warrior > Settler, but I screwed up pre-chopping, forgot about my Worker, and ended up chopping the Warrior instead of the Settler >< . Oh well, we live and learn.

Spoiler :

Ran into Sitting Bull fairly early and saw where he was. I then decided he was going to die, and while I'm at it, I think I'll just take the whole continent. Looks pretty small, so it shouldn't be too much trouble. Then I'll see about what kind of victory to pursue.

Huts gave me ~150 gold, three scouts, and some EXP, so I knew what the whole continent looked like very early, and I stayed at 100% tech for a while.

Settled my second city 3 tiles southeast, BFCing the Copper, Cows, Rice, and Spice. Later I made the third city farther north, on the coast and BFCing the Pigs, Fish, and both Elephants.

I'm still learning the ropes, so I kinda went crazy with my tech order... BW > Agriculture > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Wheel > Pottery > Alphabet. Then I traded for Archery, Masonry, Fishing, and Sailing.

I plan to make my capital and the north city cottage farms, and the southeast city with copper will be a production city. I'm sending a fourth settler northeast and I'm gonna settle on the plains to get all five (five!) Dye and the one Sugar.

Spoiler :

 

[learner gamer]

dalamb:

Spoiler :

Out of curio, do you recall which AI you swapped Sury's start with?

 

[Amao]

How come the UB picture says it requires Math and Masonry instead of Construction?

 

[learner gamer]

How come the UB picture says it requires Math and Masonry instead of Construction?

...because the UB is a replacement for an aqueduct - which requires maths and masonry to build. Are you confusing the UB with the UU &#8211; which requires construction? Then again, perhaps the confusion is caused by the following in the OP.

His UB, the Baray: an aqueduct that gives +1 food. Requires Construction, which is also needed for the UU.

Unless I am mistaken (which is often the case ), the statement "requires construction" in the second sentence is erroneous.

 

[Chimera1804]

If I get my current game done (it's won for sure, but I want to properly FINISH it), I'll give this a go Emperor/Marathon. Never actually played as sury before so this will be interesting, nor have I ever gotten past the axemen/swordsman era on Emperor...I have a feeling this will not be a success story

I'm tempted to just settle in place and use that rice for the second city. Come Civil Service both corns will be irrigated, so the north can be farmed and the south cottaged (cause of the +1)

 

[dalamb]

How come the UB picture says it requires Math and Masonry instead of Construction?

'cause I goofed. They're the prereqs to Construction; I've updated the OP.

@learner gamer:

Spoiler :

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the leader I swapped with was

Spoiler who the other leader was :

Isabella

@TheDanish: Welcome! I imagine some people will give you feedback when they've played to a similar point in their own games.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Alright, this will be my first Noble's Club game, as well as my first game on Noble difficulty....

As for the start: it looks plentiful enough, so I settled in place.

Totally reasonable - no need to get fancy yet.

Went Worker > Warrior > Settler, but I screwed up pre-chopping, forgot about my Worker, and ended up chopping the Warrior instead of the Settler >< . Oh well, we live and learn.

One thing to be aware of - in BTS, the chop isn't applied to a build until you end the turn. So if you happen to notice that the chop finished, you can put a Settler at the top of your queue, end the turn, and then take the settler off of the queue to resume training the warrior.

Spoiler :

Settled my second city 3 tiles southeast, BFCing the Copper, Cows, Rice, and Spice. Later I made the third city farther north, on the coast and BFCing the Pigs, Fish, and both Elephants.

Suggestion - turn on resource bubbles.

I'm still learning the ropes, so I kinda went crazy with my tech order... BW > Agriculture > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Wheel > Pottery > Alphabet.

Not bad. I would prefer Agriculture > BW at the start. With 2x corns to farm, your worker will be busy until BW comes in.

The timing of Writing is an interesting problem. Open Borders I don't find to interesting this early in the game, so the advantage of writing really depends on getting a Library up and running. I'm usually still busy with Workers and Settlers at this point, so I'll normally defer on Writing until I've also got Pottery in hand (for the extra reduction in tech cost), and in some cases I'll wait for Priesthood as well. Main inputs are the amount of commerce I'm generating in the capital (with a luxury metal I'll construct the Library sooner), and the amount of room I have for expansion (with close neighbors I'll race to the good locations first, and worry about the library later).

Then I traded for Archery, Masonry, Fishing, and Sailing.

My one concern here is that you then decided to build a pair of lighthouses that don't seem to address any of your immediate needs - an extra food per turn from a tile you aren't working isn't very important.

 

[Nothingontv]

Normal-emperor (i think)

I used the Monarch file and selected Emperor in the menu, i disabled huts and events but i guess i did something wrong because there were huts in the game. This also makes me doubt if i'm actually playing on emperor, it says so in the VC screen but it also say huts are disabled.

Played till 1 AD

Spoiler :

Tech path was something like AG-BW-AH-fishing-pottery-writing-Aesth-Alph.
I was the first to Alph. which also makes me wonder if i'm not actually playing Monarch.

Settled in place and started worker-warrior-settler, i settled my next city to the south-east. I planned to settle there even before the copper was revealed because I only knew SB's location and wanted to settle towards him and because it would make a nice production city.

My 3rd city was settled to the north of my capital after which i build more workers to improve those cities.

I settled 4 more cities and traded the other AI's with Aesth. and Alph. I'm now teching towards Calendar but i think i should have gone for Currency.

What really worries me in this game is that the AI's are all pleased with eachother and cautious with me. There is not a single religion on this island to take advantage of and Mansa and SB both have favorite civics that are still far away.

Some screenshots and a save.

edit: I also got a GS and built an academy in my capital

 

[Nothingontv]

Never realised that, good to know.

One thing to be aware of - in BTS, the chop isn't applied to a build until you end the turn. So if you happen to notice that the chop finished, you can put a Settler at the top of your queue, end the turn, and then take the settler off of the queue to resume training the warrior.

 

[millahnna]

I've been sort of back playing some of these and I think I'll give this one a go for real. I recently got Sury on random and really liked him (those Barays came in real handy on a map that had crap all for food). I suspect I will try from the start a few times though; why I love a game I suck so hard at is beyond me.

I'll be going Noble; Epic for my first attempt. I usually play marathon but I'm starting to get the idea that my complete inability to warmonger correctly makes Marathon not wise for me.

First thoughts; settle in place so I can grab passive coast commerce if I have to and then scout towards the rice and south (if nothing interesting is near the rice). I'll let my border pop grab the hut. Intitial techs: Agri-BW-AH. First build will probably be worker-warrior-worker-settler. I'm thinking that even without the rice, my capital will be a decent GP farm so I'll look for another place to build a capital. I'm strongly considering settling on the hill south of the nanners or the nanners instead though.

I welcome alternate suggestions before playing the turn (which should be about 30 minutes from now).

 

[dalamb]

@Nothingontv: Unfortunately the "no huts" option on custom scenario has no effect; they stay where they were in my scenario map. One can edit them out with a text editor; if it's important to you I can post about how to do it.

 

[Nothingontv]

@dalamb It's not really that important, i just figured i did something wrong. I only got the first hut anyway and got a map from it.

 

[lymond]

Our next leader is Suryavarman II of the Khmer. His traits are good for expansion; some people think his UU and UB are sub-standard:

• 
  
  I agree that his UU is marginal and, of course, situational, but I think many think the Baray is one of the better UBs.

 

[lymond]

I've been sort of back playing some of these and I think I'll give this one a go for real. I recently got Sury on random and really liked him (those Barays came in real handy on a map that had crap all for food). I suspect I will try from the start a few times though; why I love a game I suck so hard at is beyond me.

I'll be going Noble; Epic for my first attempt. I usually play marathon but I'm starting to get the idea that my complete inability to warmonger correctly makes Marathon not wise for me.

First thoughts; settle in place so I can grab passive coast commerce if I have to and then scout towards the rice and south (if nothing interesting is near the rice). I'll let my border pop grab the hut. Intitial techs: Agri-BW-AH. First build will probably be worker-warrior-worker-settler. I'm thinking that even without the rice, my capital will be a decent GP farm so I'll look for another place to build a capital. I'm strongly considering settling on the hill south of the nanners or the nanners instead though.

I welcome alternate suggestions before playing the turn (which should be about 30 minutes from now).

hmmm....nanners could be a good play, especially with no visible seafood. I like settling on them if optimal.

By the way, making war on Marathon is easier.

 

[dalamb]

@lymond: I merely repeat what I hear, since I don't have enough experience to comment. However, I did have a hard time seeing how +1 was valuable except in places hard up for it. Even then, it seemed like it wasn't enough to make a big difference. How often do you find it useful?

 

[lymond]

@lymond: I merely repeat what I hear, since I don't have enough experience to comment. However, I did have a hard time seeing how +1 was valuable except in places hard up for it. Even then, it seemed like it wasn't enough to make a big difference. How often do you find it useful?

I think it's very synergistic with his traits. Larger and faster growing cities. Faster workers made faster by food bonus - faster settlers too. It's a building I usually always build anyway. The extra food can also be the difference of running an extra specialist, working an extra mine/cottage, etc. I think if they added an extra food or even a happy to it, there would be no question.

I do like the Hamman as well and think it's one of the very top UBs.