Aggie
Deity
Got it. For sometime today (Sunday)
Non-Midas With A Vengeance - The Conquests Rematch
- Thread starter Nad
- Start date
Nad, the irrigation was in part my fault. Before we discovered Germany had the Uranium, the plan was to cruise to the spaceship avoiding war. If we had gone this way, then having scientists is better than production. The new +3 for scientists is very powerful, you can sometimes reduce the time for tech substantially. For example a "pure grassland" city could generate 63 science per turn with 21 specialists which is likely to increase your science output by 5% or more in the modern era. Not only that, but this science is unaffected by corruption. You of course do want to keep some cities higher production for the space ship parts.
Of course, we then decided to go to war after all, but I feel the science boost is a very valid strategy, even in core cities. For example shaving 2 turns off each tech which is eminantly doable, means launching 16 turns earlier. Note that I did much less irrigaton (only a few per town) than I would have done in a single player game, in case we did go to war after all.
I guess another way of looking at it is if I city is set to wealth, then 4 shields gets 1 commerce (2 with economics I think). Irrigating a mine costs you 2, 3, or 4 shields (minus corruption) to get a scientist which is +3 science. The rate is aproximately 1 to 1.
Another thing to remember is that the lack of workers on the other island is no longer a big issue. Simply airlift 2 or 3 to the other continent.
Conquests has definitely changed some of the rules. If I had to list the three most powerful things in conquest, it would be armies, scientists and civil engineers.
This is of course just my personal opinion, but it is based on several C3C games.
Of course, we then decided to go to war after all, but I feel the science boost is a very valid strategy, even in core cities. For example shaving 2 turns off each tech which is eminantly doable, means launching 16 turns earlier. Note that I did much less irrigaton (only a few per town) than I would have done in a single player game, in case we did go to war after all.
I guess another way of looking at it is if I city is set to wealth, then 4 shields gets 1 commerce (2 with economics I think). Irrigating a mine costs you 2, 3, or 4 shields (minus corruption) to get a scientist which is +3 science. The rate is aproximately 1 to 1.
Another thing to remember is that the lack of workers on the other island is no longer a big issue. Simply airlift 2 or 3 to the other continent.
Conquests has definitely changed some of the rules. If I had to list the three most powerful things in conquest, it would be armies, scientists and civil engineers.
This is of course just my personal opinion, but it is based on several C3C games.
Aggie
Deity
IHT: We are at peace, we are tech leaders, we don't need to worry about anyone getting a culture, diplo or domination victory. The most advanced civs behind us are all Fascist states.
We have Apollo in one turn and will then be able to start building parts. Satellites in 4.
<press enter>
IT: Russia wants to end the deal in which we give them gems for 23 gpt. We don't need it. Trebizond builds Apollo. I say NO to elections.
Turn 1, 2 (1560, 1565 AD)
IT: We finish SS Storage Supply, SS Docking Bay, SS Cockpit.
Turn 3 (1570 AD) I buy Gems from Spain for Dyes and 63 gpt! It allows us to keep luxurey at 0%, netting us 150 gpt. I renew the Incense deal with Russia. We want all deals cancelled to leave this world honorably [devil], but now it's still no issue. Russia gives us 260 gold and 3 gpt for incense. They offer 155 gpt for Space, but I refuse.
Science to 30%, Satellites still in 1 (1285 gpt).
IT: We discover Satellites and next up is Superconductor (a tech the AI can't research atm). The discovery of Satellites revealed the world to us, a screen says .....
Turn 4 (1575 AD) Resource to 100%, next tech in 7 (+192 gpt). Space Flight is still unknown to the rest of the world.
IT: Isabella wants to trade world maps, but likes to see me add Syntetic Fibers to the trade :rofl:
Turn 5 (1580 AD) The world can't pay full prices for the technology we have. 166 gpt for Space Flight is far too low, so I refuse to trade.
IT: We complete SS Exterior Casing.
Turn 6 (1585 AD) The AI is beginning to offer moe for Space Flight, but we don't need the money
I have to spend money one way or another, so I start investigating enemy cities. Arkhanglesk'h of the Russians shows me they are researching at 30%. They either almost have a tech or stopped researching altogether. Stuttgart (Persia) shows that they are researching at 50%. New Bombay (India) reveals that they are researching 30%.
IT: Spain and Rusia sign a MA vs India. Germany goes to war vs Spain
Turn 7 (1590 AD) Science in Russia is still30%. Science from India dropped to 20%.
IT: We complete SS Thrusters.
Turn 8 (1595 AD) The AI hasn't researching ANYTHING while I'm playing
IT: SS Engine Completed.
Turn 9 (1600 AD) We now even have the highest score. Spain is researching at 30% and Persia at 50%. Several investigation say it all. They (the AI) have NO money per trun to spend and therefore can't research at a decent pace.
Science to 80% (+444 gpt). Superconductor in 2.
IT: Trade embargo ends, we can trade with India and Germany again. Our words are now backed by nuclear weapons
. Our first ICBM is built in Trebizond.
Turn 10 (1605 AD) Russia still researches at 30%. They offer 1063 gold and 199 gpt for Space Flight.This sum is growing and growing, but in my eyes still unacceptable and insulting.
Superconductor is due next turn and imho next tech should be Nuclear Power, to get some Nuclear Plants and open other techs to research. Let's hope that the AI researches Miniaturization for us. At this moment we are doing everything on our own. Next turn a peace deal with Persia ends, including a 398 gpt payment to us. Try to sell Space Flight for at least a big part of that payment. If that works out, we could also sell the tech to Russia, if they are still willing to pay max prices. Russia won't be our enemy until we launch, which is more than 20 turns from now.
1605 AD save
We have Apollo in one turn and will then be able to start building parts. Satellites in 4.
<press enter>
IT: Russia wants to end the deal in which we give them gems for 23 gpt. We don't need it. Trebizond builds Apollo. I say NO to elections.
Turn 1, 2 (1560, 1565 AD)
IT: We finish SS Storage Supply, SS Docking Bay, SS Cockpit.
Turn 3 (1570 AD) I buy Gems from Spain for Dyes and 63 gpt! It allows us to keep luxurey at 0%, netting us 150 gpt. I renew the Incense deal with Russia. We want all deals cancelled to leave this world honorably [devil], but now it's still no issue. Russia gives us 260 gold and 3 gpt for incense. They offer 155 gpt for Space, but I refuse.
Science to 30%, Satellites still in 1 (1285 gpt).
IT: We discover Satellites and next up is Superconductor (a tech the AI can't research atm). The discovery of Satellites revealed the world to us, a screen says .....
Turn 4 (1575 AD) Resource to 100%, next tech in 7 (+192 gpt). Space Flight is still unknown to the rest of the world.
IT: Isabella wants to trade world maps, but likes to see me add Syntetic Fibers to the trade :rofl:
Turn 5 (1580 AD) The world can't pay full prices for the technology we have. 166 gpt for Space Flight is far too low, so I refuse to trade.
IT: We complete SS Exterior Casing.
Turn 6 (1585 AD) The AI is beginning to offer moe for Space Flight, but we don't need the money
I have to spend money one way or another, so I start investigating enemy cities. Arkhanglesk'h of the Russians shows me they are researching at 30%. They either almost have a tech or stopped researching altogether. Stuttgart (Persia) shows that they are researching at 50%. New Bombay (India) reveals that they are researching 30%.
IT: Spain and Rusia sign a MA vs India. Germany goes to war vs Spain
Turn 7 (1590 AD) Science in Russia is still30%. Science from India dropped to 20%.
IT: We complete SS Thrusters.
Turn 8 (1595 AD) The AI hasn't researching ANYTHING while I'm playing
IT: SS Engine Completed.
Turn 9 (1600 AD) We now even have the highest score. Spain is researching at 30% and Persia at 50%. Several investigation say it all. They (the AI) have NO money per trun to spend and therefore can't research at a decent pace.
Science to 80% (+444 gpt). Superconductor in 2.
IT: Trade embargo ends, we can trade with India and Germany again. Our words are now backed by nuclear weapons
. Our first ICBM is built in Trebizond.Turn 10 (1605 AD) Russia still researches at 30%. They offer 1063 gold and 199 gpt for Space Flight.This sum is growing and growing, but in my eyes still unacceptable and insulting.
Superconductor is due next turn and imho next tech should be Nuclear Power, to get some Nuclear Plants and open other techs to research. Let's hope that the AI researches Miniaturization for us. At this moment we are doing everything on our own. Next turn a peace deal with Persia ends, including a 398 gpt payment to us. Try to sell Space Flight for at least a big part of that payment. If that works out, we could also sell the tech to Russia, if they are still willing to pay max prices. Russia won't be our enemy until we launch, which is more than 20 turns from now.
1605 AD save
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Greebley: max irrigation is fine for far off and corrupt cities (eg Basra on the ex-Arab island is an excellent example) but not for core cities. Even at peace, these core cities can build wonders, space parts, military etc. There is also a difference between a food buffer and over-irrigation: in your last turn you pointed out (very correctly) about the Trebizond problem, where pollution hit and it starved immediately...thus you can irrigate for a few turns to fill the food box and then switch back to mines...what we had here was our most important cities, such as Constantinople, Adrianople, Caesarea and Trebizond, running extra specialists (taxmen at that!!) because of over irrigation. As you say, it is partly a matter of opinion, but I would rather take the extra shields over specialists for core cities.
About the workers: silly me, I completely forgot we could now airlift them
Aggie: very well played!
Roster
Nad
Aggie...just played
Stuck_As_a_Mac...UP NOW
Elvis...ON DECK
Greebley
Betazed
Melifluous
Not sure you'll get to launch any nukes this turn, Stuck, but I'm sure you'll enjoy comparing tiny Russia to our vast and wonderful empire!
About the workers: silly me, I completely forgot we could now airlift them
Aggie: very well played!
Roster
Nad
Aggie...just played
Stuck_As_a_Mac...UP NOW
Elvis...ON DECK
Greebley
Betazed
Melifluous
Not sure you'll get to launch any nukes this turn, Stuck, but I'm sure you'll enjoy comparing tiny Russia to our vast and wonderful empire!
Aggie
Deity
Originally posted by Nad
Not sure you'll get to launch any nukes this turn, Stuck, but I'm sure you'll enjoy comparing tiny Russia to our vast and wonderful empire!
Let's keep that for later
Stuck_as_a_Mac
Aptenodytes forsteri
Darn! I wanted to go balistic and such. I'll play later today (later in the afternoon, most likely) because I've got stuff to do today which will keep me from my comp.
Got it
Got it
Stuck_as_a_Mac
Aptenodytes forsteri
NMTWAV
T1: I look things over. Things are good. I push enter, Kathy popus up to renegotiate a lux deal we had going. I cancel. We research Superconductor, start on Nuclear Power.
T2: Xman renegotiates peace. I accept it straight up, and sell him Space Flight for WM, 340g and 275gpt. i gift him back the 340g. I bury the UN elections so far deep that even Geraldo couldnt draw where it went.
T3: I set some workers to automate for polution. If anyone sees any of 'em squirm during their turns, thats why.
T4: I sell Kathy Space Flight for 1760g and 212gpt. I gift her back the lump cash.
T5: More people decalre on eachother... Research, Dammit! We want to launch soon.
T6: Nada. Polution, workers respond, I gift someone a bunch of gold to conform with the rules. Can I start lobbing ICBMs yet? Heres something... both Russia and Persia are FACISTS...
T7: Fuel cells are built. 3 more turns to Life support.
T8: India and Russia and Persia and Russia are now at peace again. Yay for them. Russia has Miniturization :smile:. Costs me Superconductors, Satellites and 300g. Trebizond starts internet, due in 7. Ghandi buys Satellits for Spices, 249gpt and 1350g. St Petes is investigated, Internet due in 7 with growth in 6 :bites nails: Dunno who'll take it.
T9: Nuclear Power comes in. I start on the Laser.
T10: Nada
I accidently pushed enter again, so the save is the start of the next players T1. The gold has to be dealt with as does everything else.
SaaM
A fun game. A shame my last turn didnt result in that much like my last turn in NMT1
The Save (Next Players T1
T1: I look things over. Things are good. I push enter, Kathy popus up to renegotiate a lux deal we had going. I cancel. We research Superconductor, start on Nuclear Power.
T2: Xman renegotiates peace. I accept it straight up, and sell him Space Flight for WM, 340g and 275gpt. i gift him back the 340g. I bury the UN elections so far deep that even Geraldo couldnt draw where it went.
T3: I set some workers to automate for polution. If anyone sees any of 'em squirm during their turns, thats why.
T4: I sell Kathy Space Flight for 1760g and 212gpt. I gift her back the lump cash.
T5: More people decalre on eachother... Research, Dammit! We want to launch soon.
T6: Nada. Polution, workers respond, I gift someone a bunch of gold to conform with the rules. Can I start lobbing ICBMs yet? Heres something... both Russia and Persia are FACISTS...
T7: Fuel cells are built. 3 more turns to Life support.
T8: India and Russia and Persia and Russia are now at peace again. Yay for them. Russia has Miniturization :smile:. Costs me Superconductors, Satellites and 300g. Trebizond starts internet, due in 7. Ghandi buys Satellits for Spices, 249gpt and 1350g. St Petes is investigated, Internet due in 7 with growth in 6 :bites nails: Dunno who'll take it.
T9: Nuclear Power comes in. I start on the Laser.
T10: Nada
I accidently pushed enter again, so the save is the start of the next players T1. The gold has to be dealt with as does everything else.
SaaM
A fun game. A shame my last turn didnt result in that much like my last turn in NMT1
The Save (Next Players T1
Aggie
Deity
We can get Laser in 5 instead of 6, but that's nitpicking. After that we only need Robotics, so we will win before 15 turns are up
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
One other tiny little thing at this point: I would not gift the money, but instead rush improvements.
EDIT: And -oh...now the AI has the power to build ICBM's, I think it is NOT wise to attack Russia in our last turn before launch. Things could get ugly and we COULD even find out that we can't launch as expected (disconnected resources)
I think once you choose the last space ship part, you don't need resources anymore. Resources are only checked when you start a build, not finish.
On the other hand, ending the game with half your cities Nuked is not the end I would choose for a game.
On the irrigation issue - I think it just a different style of play. If you avoid wars, you don't need much military and no offense, all you need is 1 or 2 strong towns for the wonders. For the space parts, the only thing that matters is when the last one is built (which is finished on the same inter-turn as you get the tech if you do things right). I guess it comes from the "fastest spacehip launch" games I have played where more units is a disadvantage and not an advantage due to gpt cost, and nearly the entire core is set to wealth.
On the other hand, ending the game with half your cities Nuked is not the end I would choose for a game.
On the irrigation issue - I think it just a different style of play. If you avoid wars, you don't need much military and no offense, all you need is 1 or 2 strong towns for the wonders. For the space parts, the only thing that matters is when the last one is built (which is finished on the same inter-turn as you get the tech if you do things right). I guess it comes from the "fastest spacehip launch" games I have played where more units is a disadvantage and not an advantage due to gpt cost, and nearly the entire core is set to wealth.
Melifluous
King
Hey if you wanna lob nukes why not carry on playing the game as you left it?
You wont get this game back again so you wont spoil anything for yourself, just dont spoil it for us
Melifluous
Aggie
Deity
Indeed. This means that we first should get the last tech, then choose/build the last part (after the interturn) and THEN launch the bombs.
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Elvis... UP NOW
Greebley...ON DECK
Betazed
Melifluous
Nad
Aggie
Stuck
Greebley...ON DECK
Betazed
Melifluous
Nad
Aggie
Stuck
Nad
Known Troublemaker
2 points about Stuck's turn...
1) what the hell are we doing giving away 1000s of gp?! Spend it or use for upgrades!!!
2) The tech deal was very dodgy...2 very advanced techs for 1? No way would I accept such a deal...I'd have tried to steal it (if we had lump sum cash, which we could do by just setting science to 0% for a turn) or waited for the Russians to lose their monopoly. Let's all be careful about these deals...we don't want the AIs catching up in tech and for this space race to become too close. There's very little chance we can lose from this position, so let's make sure we don't .
1) what the hell are we doing giving away 1000s of gp?! Spend it or use for upgrades!!!
2) The tech deal was very dodgy...2 very advanced techs for 1? No way would I accept such a deal...I'd have tried to steal it (if we had lump sum cash, which we could do by just setting science to 0% for a turn) or waited for the Russians to lose their monopoly. Let's all be careful about these deals...we don't want the AIs catching up in tech and for this space race to become too close. There's very little chance we can lose from this position, so let's make sure we don't
.
betazed
Seeking...
- Joined
- May 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,224
Originally posted by Nad
2) The tech deal was very dodgy...2 very advanced techs for 1? No way would I accept such a deal...I'd have tried to steal it (if we had lump sum cash, which we could do by just setting science to 0% for a turn) or waited for the Russians to lose their monopoly. Let's all be careful about these deals...we don't want the AIs catching up in tech and for this space race to become too close. There's very little chance we can lose from this position, so let's make sure we don't
Actually, I have been seeing with some consternation that we are doing tech deals since the beginning of the modern age.
IMHO, in my test games I have never been able to buy techs from the AI without giving an exorbitant price. It was always cheaper for me to research it. So either (a) we must ask for the same exorbitant price (b) We should not be sellling techs at all
We can be rest assured that the AI will also not trade the techs among themselves since they ask for the same price between themselves too and none of them can pay the full price.
After all what is the point of researching a tech 2 turns faster with the trade money if we end up giving the tech to the AI cheaply anyway and hence bringing them up close to our tech level?
This game was won the moment we entered the modern age. If the game is in any doubt right now (not that it is in much doubt) I would say it is because of those unnecessary tech trades.
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Elvis, are you around? You're over the 24 hour "got it" period. We'll give you another 24hours to claim, otherwise Greebley can take it.
Aggie
Deity
We are almost there. Not to take the turn away from Elvis, but it really doesn't matter much anymore who plays the turns now...
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Well, I don't want to abandon the roster completely in the interests of fairness, but since Betazed has it he can play his turn. If Elvis checks in he can play next, otherwise it'll be Greebley.
betazed
Seeking...
- Joined
- May 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,224
I took the liberty to play two extra turns to get the game to its
final denouement. Hope no will mind. But the fun can be shared by everyone since the victory is not ours till we press spacebar. (So you cannot be too mad at me for playing two extra turns) Blow the last cash in a party and press spacebar and space is ours.
Pre turn: Increase science to get laser in 5.
trun 1 : upgrade all the tanks to modern armors.
turn 3: Reinstate agreement with Izzy for Dyes. We giver her gems and 75 g/turn
turn 4: We finish the Internet.
trun 5: We finish SS party lounge. We need Robotics too. so I start on that. Due in 7.
turn 7: Trebizoid finishes the Nuclear plant. It is now at a 171
shields/turn. It creates a ICBM in 3 turns. Robotics finishes in 6.
That means it finishes an ICBM when the last SS part becomes ready.
BTW, our closest contender in tech is Russia and she hasn't even
started building on the first SS part.
trun 10: Cathy has not still learnt nuclear power. Now we see why we should not be selling techs.
turn 11: Finally Cathy builds one SS part. yay! the SS cockpit.
trun 12: Last tech and last part comes next turn.
good game everyone.
have fun with the save. Launch the ICBMS against Russia if you want.
Make sure to increase lux tax to high because you will lose the lux imports.
here is the save from the turn before last. Have fun!
final denouement. Hope no will mind. But the fun can be shared by everyone since the victory is not ours till we press spacebar. (So you cannot be too mad at me for playing two extra turns) Blow the last cash in a party and press spacebar and space is ours.
Pre turn: Increase science to get laser in 5.
trun 1 : upgrade all the tanks to modern armors.
turn 3: Reinstate agreement with Izzy for Dyes. We giver her gems and 75 g/turn
turn 4: We finish the Internet.
trun 5: We finish SS party lounge. We need Robotics too. so I start on that. Due in 7.
turn 7: Trebizoid finishes the Nuclear plant. It is now at a 171
shields/turn. It creates a ICBM in 3 turns. Robotics finishes in 6.
That means it finishes an ICBM when the last SS part becomes ready.
BTW, our closest contender in tech is Russia and she hasn't even
started building on the first SS part.
trun 10: Cathy has not still learnt nuclear power. Now we see why we should not be selling techs.
turn 11: Finally Cathy builds one SS part. yay! the SS cockpit.
trun 12: Last tech and last part comes next turn.
good game everyone.
have fun with the save. Launch the ICBMS against Russia if you want.
Make sure to increase lux tax to high because you will lose the lux imports. here is the save from the turn before last. Have fun!
Nad
Known Troublemaker
way-hey! [dance]
Well played, Betazed, congratulations everyone on an excellent effort. And Betazed, if you don't mind, please play one more turn and print some screenshots for us poor souls stuck at work who won't get home for another 7 hours.
[dance]Well played, Betazed, congratulations everyone on an excellent effort. And Betazed, if you don't mind, please play one more turn and print some screenshots for us poor souls stuck at work who won't get home for another 7 hours
.
