Non-Pangea Maps, HELP!!!

[Peacefanatic]

Hello fellow Civ players,

I have been playing Civ IV for a few months now and I am a solid Emperor player moving up to Immortal.
But I always play Pangea maps and I would like to try something different now.
What tips can you guys give me? About naval wars, wich techs to prioritize, costs of having cities overseas, ...

Thanks in advance

 

[lymond]

Helps to be a bit more specific on the types of maps you plan to play. There are many maps out there and many of them are still Pangaea-like. And really, in most cases your strategies are not going to differ tremendously from a Pangaea game unless maybe Iso or Semi-Iso situations. In other words, you still need to worry about mastering the early game mechanics regardless of "water".

Naval warfare is not a big deal really at all. You still do whatever you can to get some kind of military advantage and just build the ships you need. In most cases, "naval warfare", i.e., "ships vs. ships" is not really a thing to me. It's just about having the transport ships to carry my army somewhere to kill lots of people on land.

I mostly play Fractal maps on my own but they can be highly unpredictable in terms of setup ..anything from Pangaea-like > to Continents-like > to complete Isolation. I might recommend Continents as a standard map you might try next. Fairly straightforward early game with at least 3 to 4 AIs on your continent to trade with or kill. Then work you way to Astro (Lib or Bulbs) and sail the boys overseas to take the other continent.

If you go Archipelago, then GLH = Win.

Otherwise, I just recommend firing up a game and playing it here for advice. At your level, I'm sure there are plenty of things for you to learn regardless of map.

 

[Quoth the Raven]

Fractal with huge size, rocky climate, low sea level, and 18 civs.

 

[Pangaea]

^^Huge and low sea level? I certainly wouldn't recommend that when the intent is to learn about handling the game at Immortal level.



Like lymond says, it doesn't really play all that different if you're on continents or various Pangaea-like maps. Fractal is good because it can throw just about anything your way, including very oddly-shaped Pangaeas (I'm not that weird, I swear!).

For naval stuff I do prefer to have some Frigates for Galleon protection, especially if the other civs have Astro too. But mainly it's just about getting your army from A to B and then killing whatever is there. Won't be much ship-to-ship combat. In the later era the AIs will spam Battleships and suchlike, which typically means you can forget about controlling the seas. Kinda pointless anyway. Let them ruin your seafood and bomb away cultural defence, while you steal all their cities

Immortal isn't terribly different from Emperor, but stuff generally happens faster. Important to have the basics done right. The absolute best way to learn more about various good plays is to post an Immortal game and then play short turnsets and report back to your thread. People offer advice and maybe shadows (if you post the starting save). It's a great way to learn, and I think many of us have learned a great deal about the game that way.

Other than that, if I are interested in watching videos for hours for learning more about the game, you can check out video series by AbsoluteZero/Chris or Lain (odd address, but it appears to be correct). Both are excellent Deity level players. There are also some great write-ups by Seraiel, but sadly I think the pictures are gone now, so they're not as instructional as they once were.

Of course, if you have more specific questions, just ask.

 

[Peacefanatic]

Thanks for your answer Lymond. The other post I did a while ago you answered me and it helped me a lot.
Since then I have evolved from Noble to Emperor and I am pretty confident now to try to win on Immortal.

Helps to be a bit more specific on the types of maps you plan to play.

I'm sorry I have not been more specific. I meant to say water map types. Because I see a lot on the forums people talking about water map types, and since I only play Pangaea maps for me all the other maps were water ones and I am not sure I am ready for them.

There are many maps out there and many of them are still Pangaea-like.

I had no idea that there were other Pangaea-like maps. Which other ones fit into this category?

And really, in most cases your strategies are not going to differ tremendously from a Pangaea game

Serious? In all my ignorance I thought they were completely different.

I might recommend Continents as a standard map you might try next.

Thanks. I'll dot that soon enough

and sail the boys overseas to take the other continent.

How about the costs of having cities overseas? Aren't them prohibitive?

Fractal with huge size, rocky climate, low sea level, and 18 civs.

Too much chaos for me haha

Fractal is good because it can throw just about anything your way, including very oddly-shaped Pangaeas (I'm not that weird, I swear!)

But then how do you find out which map type are you playing? After exploring a bit?

Won't be much ship-to-ship combat.

That's boring. I thought water maps were full of Pirates of the Caribbean war. JK haha

he absolute best way to learn more about various good plays is to post an Immortal game and then play short turnsets and report back to your thread. People offer advice and maybe shadows (if you post the starting save). It's a great way to learn, and I think many of us have learned a great deal about the game that way.

I really appreciate your advice. I am preparing a post to try this. Thanks !!!

Other than that, if I are interested in watching videos for hours for learning more about the game, you can check out video series by AbsoluteZero/Chris or Lain (odd address, but it appears to be correct). Both are excellent Deity level players. There are also some great write-ups by Seraiel, but sadly I think the pictures are gone now, so they're not as instructional as they once were.

Thanks again. I have watched some AZ videos and learned a bit from them.

 

[lymond]

Thanks for your answer Lymond. The other post I did a while ago you answered me and it helped me a lot.
Since then I have evolved from Noble to Emperor and I am pretty confident now to try to win on Immortal.

Your welcome. I remember. Good to hear that you are moving up!

I'm sorry I have not been more specific. I meant to say water map types. Because I see a lot on the forums people talking about water map types, and since I only play Pangaea maps for me all the other maps were water ones and I am not sure I am ready for them.

Well, I just figured you had a particular map type you planned on playing.

I had no idea that there were other Pangaea-like maps. Which other ones fit into this category?

Well, by Pangaea-like I meant that there are maps that are exclusively or primarily of one land mass and/or little to no bodies of water. Boreal, Oasis, Lakes, Highlands, Great Plains, Arboria, Rainforest to name a few. Basically, on many of those maps the entire map is land with maybe some small lakes. Inland Sea is an interesting map with a large sea in the middle, with the rest land, but while you might have some coastal cities, naval stuff can generally be ignored completely. Terra maps are large earth like maps with a new world and old world, but all players start in the old world.

Serious? In all my ignorance I thought they were completely different.

Not really. The main point here as in all games is that the early game is so important...expansion, teching, worker management, etc. Not much difference in that regard from Pangaea. Now..say..an Archipelago map, which is the most watery of maps, often requires some early boats to expand or even to conquer stuff early game, so there is some differences to that map. But really, on most maps, you are going to focus on similar mechanics for much of the early game to achieve success. Of course, on certain maps you might adjust how you do things depending on the location of things.

One important distinction though on certain maps that differs strongly from Pangaea, is that you likely might not meet all the AIs so early. This impacts most immediately on tech pace, but also diplo considerations long term. More AIs mean more tech, resource, and gold trading.

Thanks. I'll dot that soon enough

I don't play Continents much myself, although certainly have in the past in my time. I'd say standard settings Continents is the most basic and predictable map type in terms of what to expect early and late game in terms of naval requirement. Early game you play as usual, expanding and trading, or conquering. Then expect a touch of naval stuff mid-game to meet and deal with the group of AIs on the other continent. There are other maps that are variations on Continents maps.

How about the costs of having cities overseas? Aren't them prohibitive?

Prohibitive of what? Yes, overseas cities incur more maintenance, but there are ways to offset this. Your goal is to win the game, not worry about increased costs. You can create colonies as well.

Too much chaos for me

Indeed

But then how do you find out which map type are you playing? After exploring a bit?

Sure. Fractal is Fractal. It's is not "random-map type" or "shuffle". In other words, it is not that it randomly produces a Pangaea, Continents or whatnot, but it is just how the map is created. It's the most unpredictable of maps types, and I think this is why it is quite popular among players. It is not uncommon to start in iso or semi-iso situations which does really change one's approach significantly. Often though you get at least one oddly shaped large landmass with some AIs, and other smaller landmass(es) with one or more AIs...or you.

Overall, Fractal creates some very unique experiences map-wise. It is not cookie-cutter at all.

That's boring. I thought water maps were full of Pirates of the Caribbean war. JK

Well, if one wishes, one can pursue a lot of naval warfare. It's just guys like Pangaea and me won't recommend it in terms of optimal game play. It would be more for fun. But focusing on ship-to-ship combat is not really going to get you anywhere. It does not win games. As Pangaea said, you mainly focus on just protecting your transports, but if you do things right you don't have to do much of that.

AIs do love to send out a few Pirate ships after Astro/Chem, so you may need to kill those off or protect transports from them. AIs appear to favor sending Pirate ships to the human regardless of relations. Really just a minor nuisance though.

 

[ArchGhost]

Intercontinental wars can be a pain, and I really don't like them But it's a part of the game, if one chooses to embrace it all.

You shouldn't be too focused on ship combat as Lymond advises. The reason is AIs spam them in totally unreasonable amounts, and just love to pick off your ships by suiciding into them with numbers; they'll also maintain and upgrade their units all the way to Combustion navy abusing their upgrade discounts, so it's often just not worth it try to keep up in that arms race. They can get away with it, they pay less unit upkeep and get free economic boni, the cheaters!

Really the big deal is just getting enough of a force there to maintain a beachhead on the initial attack. Then you can just continue to ferry over units as you can. In this earlier window (age of sail) you can deter your Galleons from being slammed by Caravels and Frigates with a few Frigate of your own in the ferry stack, though it will move a bit slower.

If the distances are fairly short, or there are island cities between you and the target, don't be afraid to leap-frog form port to port to avoid harassment either.

How about the costs of having cities overseas? Aren't them prohibitive?

Overseas trade routes are automatically more lucrative, so these cities tend to have a bit of economic cushion when you already have Astronomy. If you start accruing too much maintenance cost (usually from colonial costs from lots of cities on a singular other continent) liberating a colony, gifting them to other rivals, or heading for State Property is an alleviation. Cheaper civics (Nationhood, Pacifism) or Free Market can also help before that point.

If you don't need the cities/territory, gifting away intercontinental spoils to a new vassal can be a handy trick: The enemy gains no war success against you for taking the city from your vassal, the vassal will automatically garrison and defend cities, you drop all maintenance costs but gain some juicy trade routes, and any resources you stole control of then handed over are still yours for use via trade with the vassal.

But then how do you find out which map type are you playing? After exploring a bit?

Mostly by exploring around and making inferences based on how much AI contact you have. Isolation is pretty obvious, Fractal can also put you together with only one or two other AIs, or most of you together which then plays mostly like Pangaea games.

In cases of isolation, foreign contact ASAP is often important after stabilizing against barbs, so you can make some tech trades and eventually open up international trade with Astronomy for trade routes and resources. This is where you see the talk of "getting to Optics."

 

[Peacefanatic]

Inland Sea is an interesting map

I just played an Inland Sea game, it's very fun, thanks for the tip!!

Your welcome. I remember. Good to hear that you are moving up!

Thanks lymond. All your advice definetely helped me a lot.
I'm playing my first game on Immortal now and I'm not doing that bad. But I think it's very different from Emperor, especially barb defense. On emperor I did not care much about that and usually just beelined alphabet. Now on Immortal barbs are very annoying and I have to fogbust if I don't want to lose land to the barbs. From what I can remember ut's my first time playing Civ IV that I'm not the tech leader.

Intercontinental wars can be a pain, and I really don't like them But it's a part of the game, if one chooses to embrace it all.

I never played one and don't plan on doing it

Overseas trade routes are automatically more lucrative, so these cities tend to have a bit of economic cushion when you already have Astronomy

I had not realized that, thanks for the info. I never pay attention to costs and stuff, maybe that's one of the reasons I'm not that good.

Thanks for all the advice ArchGhost. I'm playing inland sea maps now and I think they are very fun.

 

[lymond]

Although Deity is much much harder than IMM, IMM is basically a level where you can start practicing things that will help later on Deity..and, ofc, necessary to beat IMM. Things like often teching Aesths for Alpha trades and stuff. Really focused on tech path and worker management. And, yes, using spawnbusting as best you can. Sometimes you may have to tech Archery early, but I avoid that if at all possible. Deity though you often have to.

Interesting note on overseas trade routes is that it applies to any city not directly connected to you home landmass, and applies to your own cities. For example, and this is quite common on Fractal maps, you may start on a landmass that has some nearby islands reachable via sailing. Cities settled on those islands, even one tile islands, will have boosted trade routes internally. Really great with GLH. And overseas foreign trade routes are even better.