Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
Also @Snerk: Would you consider yourself a user of magic?
NotW LIV - The Masque of Death
- Thread starter Arakhor
- Start date
Snerk
Smeghead
My block on Winston failed and I lost my gilded mask in the process. Not sure what to make of that. First I thought Winston had stolen it but it appears in the write-up as broken so I'm not sure.
No, my magic is stat 1. Makes sense for a merchant, I guess.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
As far as we're aware, there's no one with an ability going around and smashing masks. So I'm going to give you an opportunity to try again.
Then please explain why I scanned you yesterday as a spell-caster.
Snerk
Smeghead
Try again? lol. I blocked, blocked failed, mask bye-bye.
You'll have to ask Arakhor that. Again, I have an estate scan and a block. In the game's setting I guess that's kind of spell-ish. And my magic isn't zero after all.
Midday Tallies
Sable Mask
Autolycus: Backwards Logic, Autolycus, Snerk
Silver Mask
Snerk: Autolycus, Snerk
Legato Endless: Backwards Logic
Iron Mask
Backwards Logic: Backwards Logic, Autolycus, Snerk
Not Voting for Masks: Legato Endless, Winston Hughes
Lynch Tally
Winston Hughes: Backwards Logic, Autolycus, Snerk
Legato Endless: Winston Hughes
Absent: Legato Endless
Those who voted on the masks unanimously decided to award Backwards Logic the Iron Mask and Autolycus the Sable Mask, but only a majority agreed on Snerk receiving the Silver Mask. Still, in the last day of the ball, such few votes were all that mattered and the masks were handed out appropriately.
Day Seven ends: [TIMER=5/28/2015 10:00 PM GMT+1; Day Seven over][/TIMER]
Sable Mask
Autolycus: Backwards Logic, Autolycus, Snerk
Silver Mask
Snerk: Autolycus, Snerk
Legato Endless: Backwards Logic
Iron Mask
Backwards Logic: Backwards Logic, Autolycus, Snerk
Not Voting for Masks: Legato Endless, Winston Hughes
Lynch Tally
Winston Hughes: Backwards Logic, Autolycus, Snerk
Legato Endless: Winston Hughes
Absent: Legato Endless
Those who voted on the masks unanimously decided to award Backwards Logic the Iron Mask and Autolycus the Sable Mask, but only a majority agreed on Snerk receiving the Silver Mask. Still, in the last day of the ball, such few votes were all that mattered and the masks were handed out appropriately.
Day Seven ends: [TIMER=5/28/2015 10:00 PM GMT+1; Day Seven over][/TIMER]
Apart from that high magic score, my role seems a bit of a liability to the town. Look how I've played it: aggressive, going after people, trying to make a decisive contribution to catching a scumbag. I won't say I was desperate for them to attack me, but I was fairly relaxed at the prospect. I figured I had a decent chance of matching them if they did, and, even if they won, it might be better for town to lose my role than a more useful one.
This was in my mind when I thought I'd lynched Newyn at the original deadline on D2, and I told protectors not to waste their efforts on me if he showed up guilty. But, looking back on it now, I made a mistake there. I should have revealed the ability in full, and that is a point against me. It was only a couple of minutes to the deadline, so my thoughts were rushed, and I added the part about scanners to make it clearer that I wasn't claiming to be bulletproof. It's a heavily ingrained habit with me to hold back info to mess with the scum's calculations, but if I'd stated the whole thing it would have been more likely to draw their fire. It would also have looked a little better for me with regards to the current discussion.
How different things would have been if Newyn had been lynched at the original deadline. Maybe I'd have been killed that night, taking with me the satisfaction that I'd helped my team towards what would likely have been a decisive victory. Instead, I went and lynched spaceman to lock the lynch at the end of the extension, and find myself here, still just a liability to the town cause.
All those posts I made above, all the reading and thinking behind them, the hours and hours I've dedicated to it today... This isn't me trying to dig my way out of a lynch, so I can lose the game N7 instead of D7. This is me trying not to screw it up again. This is me trying to make amends for lynching spaceman and Visor, and for ending up looking so damned guilty to you that it might actually cost us the game.
Oh dear. The fail just keeps on coming. I just read the rules about combat. I've played this whole game not realising that magic and combat scores max out at 3. 
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
@Snerk: Your replies have been less than satisfying, and I would have expected something more substantial in response to Winston. I'd like a really, really good reason why I shouldn't switch to you.
@Winston: You claim no active abilities, correct? I have scanned you as a spellcaster. Can you explain?
For context, my scans on each day phase and their results:
Day One: Legato - inconclusive. Unable to determine yes or no.
Day Two: Activated Dragon Mask over scanning. No scan.
Day Three: Visorslash: Not a spellcaster
Day Four: Newyn: Spellcaster
Day Five: Winston Hughes: Spellcaster
Day Six: Snerk: Spellcaster
@Winston: You claim no active abilities, correct? I have scanned you as a spellcaster. Can you explain?
For context, my scans on each day phase and their results:
Day One: Legato - inconclusive. Unable to determine yes or no.
Day Two: Activated Dragon Mask over scanning. No scan.
Day Three: Visorslash: Not a spellcaster
Day Four: Newyn: Spellcaster
Day Five: Winston Hughes: Spellcaster
Day Six: Snerk: Spellcaster
Well, you'll have to read between the lines a little here, as my PG prevents me from saying it out loud, but there's certainly one thing about my role which would make it rather odd if I didn't scan as a spellcaster.
And, given the above, I'd also say it's a pretty safe bet that my ability, passive though it is, results from some kind of spell. Then there's my high magic score, which you'd expect from someone with my *ahem* professional interests, and which would presumably manifest itself in a combat situation by me shooting off a load of magic missiles or something.
So despite my lack of any active ability, I'd say it's pretty blatant why I'd scan as a spellcaster.
Snerk
Smeghead
Look, Winston has been throwing around a lot of subjective player analysis the last couple of days. Most of which I find it hard to reply with meaningful counterarguments. I certainly can appreciate Winston's dedication in reading as much as possible of player behaviour, and analysing votes and players is tricky business. Winston is a dedicated mafia/notw player, and a skilled one. If he's town I don't see why he's sinking so much time in a game that is more than likely already won. It seems very likely that the chance of another scum died with the Visor lynch. Arakhor practically admitted that the ancient mask had a converting ability. Four scum plus a convert? No chance.
I'm a pragmatic mafia player. I'm less inclinded to vote on somebody because they feel scummy. I much more prefer a solid lead even if it's weak.
The remaining scum is a dark cultist. Winston fits the bill. Add to that he has made a couple of shady votes.
Concerning me. First of all, the d2 vote is plenty of casus belli for a vote against me, no hard feelings if you switch. But my abilities and uses checks out, and I don't see how an estate scan could help the mafia. It I'm right about winston, it definitely can help the town in figuring out the final pieces of the puzzle.
Right, now let's get down to the real business here. I've been holding off to see if Legato showed up, but our time is running down, and there's things that need saying.
Firstly, Snerk is obviously scum. There's a ton of evidence against him, including a couple of points which should have damned him on their own long ago (the roleblock, the saving of Newyn). I've already dispatched quite comprehensively the main point in his favour - the D1 lynch - and I don't think I need to go through the bussing that occurred after BL revealed his block on Newyn to show that it ain't worth squat in Snerk's defence. And this thing about the Gilded mask just happening to break on the penultimate night, after he'd already told us that you have to break it to get a lynch manipulating effect? Anyone who believes that crap - coming from someone with as much evidence against him as Snerk - is suffering from a case of terminal gullibility.
Secondly, that Gilded mask could complicate matters here. If he was telling the truth about what it does (and, given the circumstances of the reveal, my guess is that he was), then Snerk has probably pre-cancelled BL's vote against him today, in the hope that it will take out both the natural and the mask-enabled vote. At this point, the question of whether we have one or two scum remaining becomes rather more pressing. If Snerk is the only scumbag, everybody piles on, and town gets the win. If he has an accomplice, however, and if both of BL's votes are cancelled, the accomplice only has to vote for me to ensure they can't get worse than a tie on Snerk. Add any other vote manipulation on their part, and they get the win outright.
Firstly, Snerk is obviously scum. There's a ton of evidence against him, including a couple of points which should have damned him on their own long ago (the roleblock, the saving of Newyn). I've already dispatched quite comprehensively the main point in his favour - the D1 lynch - and I don't think I need to go through the bussing that occurred after BL revealed his block on Newyn to show that it ain't worth squat in Snerk's defence. And this thing about the Gilded mask just happening to break on the penultimate night, after he'd already told us that you have to break it to get a lynch manipulating effect? Anyone who believes that crap - coming from someone with as much evidence against him as Snerk - is suffering from a case of terminal gullibility.
Secondly, that Gilded mask could complicate matters here. If he was telling the truth about what it does (and, given the circumstances of the reveal, my guess is that he was), then Snerk has probably pre-cancelled BL's vote against him today, in the hope that it will take out both the natural and the mask-enabled vote. At this point, the question of whether we have one or two scum remaining becomes rather more pressing. If Snerk is the only scumbag, everybody piles on, and town gets the win. If he has an accomplice, however, and if both of BL's votes are cancelled, the accomplice only has to vote for me to ensure they can't get worse than a tie on Snerk. Add any other vote manipulation on their part, and they get the win outright.
If the best thing in Legato's favour is that he cast a third vote on the D6 Snerk wagon with forty-six hours of the day still remaining, I'd say he's looking pretty damned scummy here. Here's what you'd just said about Snerk, about a half-hour prior to Legato's vote:
Newyn got lynched the previous day, they just failed to kill for a second night in a row, and the guy who led Newyn's lynch is now going after Snerk with a vengeance. If he and Snerk are scumbuddies, why on earth would Legato not try and get his bussing in early? Sure, he's hoping another wagon takes over, and maybe he'll shift his vote later on if the right circumstances arise. But in the meantime, where else would Snerk's scumbuddy want to be but on that wagon?
So, the life and scummy times of Legato Endless...
First thing: it's important to bear in mind that he and Newyn are already well acquainted with one another. Both of them are confident, experienced and highly capable players. If you have any doubt about that, then consider the fact that they were both amongst the frontrunners to represent Giant in the Playground at the Mafia Championships (indeed, Newyn himself voted for Legato to be their rep).
After each laying down a random vote, they begin the game by talking to one another about rulesy stuff (scum love doing this - giving the sense of active towning whilst doing nothing to solve the game or create suspicion, with the added bonus here that townies often assume these public exchanges are unlikely from scumbuddies):
Starting roughly four hours into D1, those six posts cover about a hour and a quarter (scumchatting in the QT all the while?), during which time the following posts from Visor represent the only interruptions:
These posts were just straight ignored by Newyn and Legato. But that's no surprise, because they're experienced enough, and they know Visor well enough, to realise that engaging with him here was unlikely to be a wise move. As far as possible, they want their contributions to the thread to be on their own terms, especially before they've had a chance to get a decent handle on the set-up. This exchange pinged me on D1. Looking back on it, in the light of what we've learned since, it certainly doesn't look any better now.
First thing: it's important to bear in mind that he and Newyn are already well acquainted with one another. Both of them are confident, experienced and highly capable players. If you have any doubt about that, then consider the fact that they were both amongst the frontrunners to represent Giant in the Playground at the Mafia Championships (indeed, Newyn himself voted for Legato to be their rep).
After each laying down a random vote, they begin the game by talking to one another about rulesy stuff (scum love doing this - giving the sense of active towning whilst doing nothing to solve the game or create suspicion, with the added bonus here that townies often assume these public exchanges are unlikely from scumbuddies):
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Next time we see Legato on D1, he gives us more of the soft stuff:
Visor's post came immediately after Legato's one there, but the response doesn't show up for nearly 27 hours, by which time Snerk has gone into the lead for the lynch, and has done his role reveal:
Spoiler :
Having waited more than a day to respond to Visor's question, could Legato have fudged that read on Snerk any more than he did? Finding someone 'tonally a bit strange' is reason enough to vote them D1, but Snerk has just announced a scummy-sounding ability and Legato ignores it completely. Instead, he does this:
Now, aside from pushing another candidate as a possible alternative to the likes of KM and Snerk, there's also the actual explanation for his vote. It's another massive fudge on a probable scumbuddy, and a very weak justification indeed for voting bladescape. Again, Snerk is the leading candidate here, and has just tried to save himself with a dubious roleclaim, but this doesn't seem to feature into Legato's thinking at all.
Further to the above, I posted this two minutes after Legato's vote on bladescape:
(i) It shows I'm not Snerk's scumbuddy. At this point he's in the lead on three votes, with KM, BL and (thanks to Legato) bladescape on two each, and my vote stays on him after the reveal, which I call out as dubious. The end of the day is closing in and, unlike Legato, I'm saying stuff that's likely to draw more votes onto Snerk. (Sidenote: The estate scan ability is blatantly more useful to scum than town, because it can help to guide their attacks. They don't want to attack mages with magic or fighters with combat, and knowing which estates players are in makes that much easier to achieve.)
(ii) As with Visor's earlier question to him, Legato disappears as soon as talking about Snerk ceases to be something he can avoid. Now, to be fair, activity levels were low all around at this stage. But I do wonder if there's a pattern emerging of Legato avoiding the subject of Snerk's scumminess, perhaps because it would be hard to talk about it convincingly without making Snerk look worse, or drawing too obvious a connection between the pair of them.
This is relevant for two reasons:
(i) It shows I'm not Snerk's scumbuddy. At this point he's in the lead on three votes, with KM, BL and (thanks to Legato) bladescape on two each, and my vote stays on him after the reveal, which I call out as dubious. The end of the day is closing in and, unlike Legato, I'm saying stuff that's likely to draw more votes onto Snerk. (Sidenote: The estate scan ability is blatantly more useful to scum than town, because it can help to guide their attacks. They don't want to attack mages with magic or fighters with combat, and knowing which estates players are in makes that much easier to achieve.)
(ii) As with Visor's earlier question to him, Legato disappears as soon as talking about Snerk ceases to be something he can avoid. Now, to be fair, activity levels were low all around at this stage. But I do wonder if there's a pattern emerging of Legato avoiding the subject of Snerk's scumminess, perhaps because it would be hard to talk about it convincingly without making Snerk look worse, or drawing too obvious a connection between the pair of them.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
No, he doesn't look good at all with that mask break. And his reasoning is worse - It just broke I swear! It's like some little kid knocked a plate off of a table and claimed it fell all by itself while standing amongst the pieces.
I agree, I'm sure he canceled mine. That said, I could just support you assuming Snerk/Auto or Snerk/Legato vote your way. Legato not being here does not help the situation any, and with Autolycus being blind to the possibility of Snerk as scum doesn't bode well for a switch there.
I'm still torn because I can neutralize Snerk tonight if it comes down to it.
Never suggested or believed you were working with Snerk. I don't think that's even on the table.
The sidenote I agree with, but if you look at the kills/kill attempts they have what, one kill that pits strength against weakness (Sprig kill). Everything else per Snerk's reveal suggests he hasn't been scanning to aid traitor endeavors. Hell, I got attacked with magic after being scanned first estate the first night. Who does that? And if he made the scan results up to cover up who he's really been scanning, how did he get them all right? The role matches what a scum would need. His use doesn't.
So, knowing now that KM, Newyn and Snerk are scum, how does D1 look for Legato?
Not good at all. He indulges in a comfortable back and forth with his old pal Newyn, talking about the soft stuff, whilst ignoring Visor's attempts at engagement. But on the subject of Snerk's scumminess, he ducks and fudges, and pushes an alternative to the scumbags threatened by the lynch.
Let's move on to D2. Straight out of the blocks, we have townies placing votes on Newyn, Snerk, spaceman and choxorn. Choxy then shows up to stick his vote on spaceman, and is followed immediately by...
Next we have this, which, despite his odd reticence about pushing it, Visor seemed to find very suspect indeed after he received the mask:
Visor was right that at least one scumbag voted him that mask. But could it have been two of them? On first glace, I find it unlikely. Collusion here seems rather unnecessary.
Then you look at the times on those two posts. Identical. They both voted Visor the mask at exactly the same time. Kind of like they'd talked about it in scum chat, but got confused about who was supposed to be doing it. Notice that Newyn's post comes second, and will have taken longer to write, so it seems highly improbable that he had time to cook it up after reading Legato's vote. This is either pure coincidence, or outright proof of collusion. Taken on its own, you'd say more likely it was coincidence. But when you look at the other incidences of collusion between the two, not least on the spaceman wagon that saved Newyn later that day, the case for coincidence doesn't seem nearly so strong.
Having seen this now, I begin to wonder if Visor felt he had the game more-or-less solved early on, and just hung around waiting to see if anyone else figured it out, offering a few hints here and there, but otherwise just chillin' with his mask fetish and maybe trying to get himself recruited to the scum team.
Not good at all. He indulges in a comfortable back and forth with his old pal Newyn, talking about the soft stuff, whilst ignoring Visor's attempts at engagement. But on the subject of Snerk's scumminess, he ducks and fudges, and pushes an alternative to the scumbags threatened by the lynch.
Let's move on to D2. Straight out of the blocks, we have townies placing votes on Newyn, Snerk, spaceman and choxorn. Choxy then shows up to stick his vote on spaceman, and is followed immediately by...
Now 'third on the bandwagon' ain't much of a rule to work with in normal circumstances, but when you know that 2/4 of those candidates are scum, it seems a bit more valid.
Next we have this, which, despite his odd reticence about pushing it, Visor seemed to find very suspect indeed after he received the mask:
Spoiler :
Then you look at the times on those two posts. Identical. They both voted Visor the mask at exactly the same time. Kind of like they'd talked about it in scum chat, but got confused about who was supposed to be doing it. Notice that Newyn's post comes second, and will have taken longer to write, so it seems highly improbable that he had time to cook it up after reading Legato's vote. This is either pure coincidence, or outright proof of collusion. Taken on its own, you'd say more likely it was coincidence. But when you look at the other incidences of collusion between the two, not least on the spaceman wagon that saved Newyn later that day, the case for coincidence doesn't seem nearly so strong.
Having seen this now, I begin to wonder if Visor felt he had the game more-or-less solved early on, and just hung around waiting to see if anyone else figured it out, offering a few hints here and there, but otherwise just chillin' with his mask fetish and maybe trying to get himself recruited to the scum team.
Actually, the Gilded Mask break plus him showing up as a spellcaster makes me wonder if my scan might have failed to penetrate a cover role.
If there's only one scum left, we've probably won no matter what.
If there's two scum left, then the question is why they didn't kill last night. A mis-lynch loses for us in this case, while no lynch puts everything on preventing a kill tonight.
What happens if we switch to putting out a network of support votes? If I switch to support: Winston, BL supports Snerk, and Winston accuses Snerk, we're at zero (or less) all the way around (assuming the gilded mask doesn't cancel support votes), and BL can shift his vote to counter any late-day votes, even if Snerk used the mask to pre-cancel BL's vote on him. If everyone stays put, the only way this results in a lynch is if Snerk used the gilded mask on BL, and the gilded mask also prevents support votes, and in that case Snerk lied, so I'm fine with him dying.
Thoughts? I'll be back on a little before the deadline.
Yeah, that is what it looks like.
You blocked Autolycus the night you were attacked, right? If so, that means he can't have been injured, and so was free to make a kill last night. Since it also means he can only be scum if there are two left, that clears him.
Now I look at it, though, there is a slight inconsistency here. When announcing your block on Newyn, you said you lose your block the night after blocking a magic user, and also pointed out that Awnshegh had used black lightening to kill his victims. Having blocked Newyn, then, it would seem you ought to have lost your block the following night.
However, it was Autolycus who came out and announced he'd been blocked early in D6, which means either you were able to block him, or the pair of you are scumbuddies. If the latter was true, you should have won the game already. And, while my respect for your scumming skills means I wouldn't die of shock if you were scum here, my jaw would certainly move rapidly in a downward direction.
Nah, it's Snerk, Legato, or Snerk/Legato.
And that makes this the essential question for us: did Snerk tell the truth about what the Gilded mask does when broken? If so, lynching Legato should secure us the win, regardless of which of the three possibilities is true. If not, all bets are off.
I say we lynch Legato.
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