NotW XXXII: Siege of Evermore: Game Thread

[Niklas]

There is another aspect, though, and that is the survival of the network leader or leaders. This is where I was surprised at the Svarts, who don't even seem to have discussed trying to kill Renata after it became clear that she was totally in control. Obviously, there was a good chance of her being protected, but did you actually know that to be the case? Looking at the QT, it sounds almost as if you guys decided to let Renata live whatever happened, for purely metagame reasons.

For me it was a question of a) I was totally sure she was protected, and b) my lunatic plan to acquire the medallion.

 

[Renata]

If you had killed me on night two, it would have been much much harder for the innocents to put the puzzle together. I had a lot of information I just couldn't find the time to put in order until after Bad Player was lynched -- you can see in our QT how late I made that big set of summary posts. Before that it had never been together all in one place.

So really the medallion ploy had more than one good effect for us.

I'm sort of mad at myself (and the people affected should be mad at me) for not telling Earthling to protect based on my best guesses the last few nights, because as it turned out I would have gotten every one correct. (Specifically Winston, Khazaar, Krill.) That never happens.

 

[Renata]

(Not to detract from Renata's excellent work, and stress probably given that everybody was probably spamming her messages all the time) It didn't matter, except maybe Niklas/landlubber might have acted differently towards Renata than other players or something so maybe they wouldn't have exposed themselves so easily.

Yes, and Winston actually trusted Seon much more than he trusted me. As irritated as I was about being manipulated into exposing Earthling's possession of the medallion to him, he was probably just as irritated about feeling like he needed to tell me he was a Flurry.

Even without me the group was strong enough with Winston/Seon/Earthling/Paulus that the outcome in the end would have been much the same. Earthling's protection of Seon was definitive at least as much as the attack on me.

I had been wondering if I was deliberately injured because of my stonewalling of Methos regarding whether I had any ability -- apparently not?

I do think this game should serve as somewhat of a warning to GMs about the power of confirming players as innocent in public, especially if the game also has one or more protective roles. It's something that should not be done lightly.

After saving Seon, he and I at the least would have been working together/coordinating the Innocents if we could. And apparently Seon/Winston allied really early too, (and I see Winston found Paulus) so we had a solid group no matter what. Renata didn't actually have any abilities (?) and you guys never attacked Renata again did you?

Correct, no abilities.

In other words, it wasn't the kills, but the ridiculous plan you all had to go around stealing items and talking about a "Massacre" and "traitor Flurries" that virtually ZERO Non-Svarts had any reason to talk about or think existed.

Edit: And if I had been calling the shots (well, if Seon listened to me) we would probably have lynched Methos and Autolycus Days Two and Three, because it seemed likely to me Methos was guilty from the start. The three of you all voting for CivGeneral at least really was evidence for your guilt that could be publicly figured out.

Yep. I waffled about the likely meaning of those roles until Niklas was lynched, despite being vaguely uneasy about Methos since basically the second (real-life) day of the game. After that it was easy.

 

[Niklas]

I had been wondering if I was deliberately injured because of my stonewalling of Methos regarding whether I had any ability -- apparently not?

Correct, landlubber unilaterally decided to injure you for reasons known only to him.

 

[Renata]

Here's our QT.

Landlubber's attack on Renata was rather a surprise to us, or at least me. As to my attitude that last day, I was having too much fun. I knew I was going down and so I did my best to enjoy it on the way. For those of you who are curious, the whole time Renata and I were arguing in the threads, we both were communicating via IM about life and just anything. Even though it looked like we were angry at each other, it was just roleplay.

I wouldn't characterize it as roleplay so much as just entirely not personal. Believe me, I was having a grand old time trying to tear your arguments to shreds in the clearest possible terms. At one point Niklas wandered by and commented on it, and I remember telling him I'd be being even more aggressive in my wording except that I thought it might not be a good idea politically -- I knew you'd be fine with it!

I'm so disappointed I didn't get the chance to rebut Diamondeye the next day.

 

[Renata]

Three statements:

- We the Svarts did played a really bad game. Me and Methos discussed at one point how we'd done pretty much everything wrong. But it was still fun, up until the point where the whole thing just went south and we got picked off one by one.

- The whole plan to steal the medallion was part of that overall fun I mentioned. It definitely wasn't the best tactical move, but it sure was fun!

- I hate resurrection as a mechanic, it's just bad in so many ways, and I did not really appreciate being raised. I was very RL busy on the day I was lynched, I only did some attempts (reasonably successful it seems ) to convince Renata of my innocence over MSN, figuring she might convince others. Me not posting a public defense was only due to lack of time, not that I didn't care if I died. I didn't read our QT that day until after I was dead, and I had no idea about Methos' plan to resurrect me. If I had, I would have opposed it, and landlubber would have died first, possibly giving me another chance to appear innocent. Only minor details though, I'd have died quite soon anyway I'm sure.

Yeah, that was my self-doubt in play again there. I didn't want to be forced into a decision on you until I absolutely had to, and certainly not while a confessed Svartalfar was out there just waiting for the lynch. But you certainly would not have survived the next day.

I never really got around to you as being the thief of the bunch -- that was a nice bluff on day two.

 

[Renata]

Yay, victory. Now I´m not the one to slap myself on the back (or am I) but without any townnetwork I found methos and even took a calculated bullet for town.

Even gave up my stupid personal victory condition... Yay me!!!

That WAS a calculated bullet! NICE! I was so hoping it was, because it was a fabulous move. Serious, serious, kudos. I'm really impressed.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Indeed. I was also impressed by Khazaar's nose-tweaking use of the term 'Swartalf' - it makes them sound like some kind of sanitary product.

 

[Renata]

I think this game is a clear case in point why pevergreen is right about townie networks. The whole "death by GM" setup definitely didn't help. I'm sorry to say I didn't enjoy this game very much (apart from the obvious fun of making Renata's head spin),

Haha.

for a number of reasons, and I think future GMs would do well to consider mechanics that make townie networks difficult and/or dangerous.

Yeah, I basically agree with this, and with Winston's post below. Townie networks are inevitable in games with multiple powers, and mechanics to limit or subvert them should be considered by GMs, particularly in games with only a single wolf faction. But in this game specifically it was the public confirmation of the attacks on us that turned out definitive, and it likely would have been definitive even if things had been done largely in public.

I played a game as mafia once on another site where my team got taken down just as rapidly and definitively as this on the basis of townie confirmation*, and that game was all-public, nothing behind the scenes at all (except for the mafia).

There were three major things that resulted in the outcome in this game, any questions of playstyle or effectiveness aside:
-- the near-confirmation of both me and Seon so early in the game, that allowed us to collect information
-- the presence of multiple confirmable or meta-game-susceptible abilities and item possessions that narrowed down the suspect list dramatically
-- the niklas/methos/autolycus linkage regarding the items that made it more likely each of them in turn was a wolf once it turned out that one of them was

DE and CH could have remained hidden a little bit longer (or at least made it harder to get them lynched) if they hadn't claimed what they did and hadn't tried to defend against their teammates' lynches. DE's scan result, for instance, was completely innocuous.

* It was a game where everyone had an ability, and my mafia team of five got off to a roaring start, finding the doctor and the detective with a well-chosen watcher target on the very first night. But on day two someone came up for lynch who wound up claiming town bomb (and was lynched anyway). The town bulletproof attached herself to the back of the lynch wagon. Boom, two dead townies -- only there was a player who could undo a lynch at the cost of his own life, and he used that ability that day. Scratch two dead townies, gain two living confirmed townies, and we couldn't easily kill either one. The next day the three masons revealed and requested a mass claim, and that was all she wrote. It was just plain ugly from there to the end.

 

[Renata]

A short AAR, though most of it’s already been mentioned one place or another and I’ll probably forget everything important anyway. 

Day/Night One
So I have the slave role, and I’m just a bog-standard innocent with no item or ability. Well, OK, this should be fun. I immediately decided to stonewall everyone regarding my possession of ability or item, in the hopes they would assume my character was much more than it was. Seems I didn’t have to try very hard, since everyone assumed the slave must be a big role anyway. 

But the main interest here was Khazaar. He told me he knew I was innocent. I was supposed to see him dead for my personal goal. Hmmm ….

At some point during this day or night, Methos switched from saying he had no interest in the game (which hadn’t struck me as odd) to saying he did, and I found him very suspicious immediately. I still don’t know exactly why.

Day/Night Two
Well, that was both a surprise and it wasn’t. Not a surprise I was attacked, but surprised to be alive in spite of it. And of course I had no idea why, though the use of an injury-only ability did cross my mind. (Didn’t do my suspicion of Methos any good, either, given all the fishing he’d done the previous day about whether I had an ability, and all the fishing he did afterwards.) And more of a surprise to find Seon had survived an attack as well.

Despite the reservations I have about how confirmed innocents can break a game, there was no way on God’s green earth I was going to pass up an opportunity like that. I immediately set to work requesting information and arguing to anyone I could button-hole that the write-up meant I could be trusted.

I got pushback from the expected quarters: Winston, Niklas, the .orgers. Krill refused to tell me anything. CCRunner told me he wasn’t good for much, just an old man. Methos denied any abilities. J-man was really suspicious of me. Pretty much everyone else told me at least something. Nictel revealed his healing/strengthening ability and Paulus his partial scan. Choxorn claimed a single-use full scan. And so on down the line. Earthling originally only told me of the medallion, though I learned about the protection soon enough in discussions with Seon, whom I was sure I could trust.

At some point that day landlubber offered his longbow. SURE!

Later, I talked to Niklas. He decided to reveal his ability and quest. He told me he wanted to find a certain artifact of Esus, so that it could be destroyed. I said I hadn’t heard of any item-destroying abilities, but the artifact of Esus sounded familiar. I went back through my PMs and found the medallion. Bingo! I saw no reason to be suspicious of Niklas at this point, but did not give him Earthling’s name. Earthling’s openness about the medallion convinced me he was not Svartalfar, and once the information got put together about Seon’s protection and such I trusted him as much as Seon, and I believe vice versa. Which got us both into a little trouble with Winston later on.

Niklas suggested the bronzesmith pevergreen might be able to destroy the medallion. I asked him, he said no, I told Niklas as much.

While all of this was going on, Krill accused Autolycus based on the partial scan results he had. (I still don’t know who the prophet was, though it has to be either Krill himself or CCRunner. Probably Krill.) I didn’t see his results as suspicious in themselves, and was also curious about the seeming presence of two personal-goal/ability scanners and zero full-time alignment scanners. And, I was hideously distracted with the inflow of information. In the end CivGeneral got lynched on three votes, all from wolves. Shameful.

 

[Diamondeye]

I think this game is a clear case in point why pevergreen is right about townie networks. The whole "death by GM" setup definitely didn't help. I'm sorry to say I didn't enjoy this game very much (apart from the obvious fun of making Renata's head spin), for a number of reasons, and I think future GMs would do well to consider mechanics that make townie networks difficult and/or dangerous.

This

 

[Krill]

If you had killed me on night two, it would have been much much harder for the innocents to put the puzzle together. I had a lot of information I just couldn't find the time to put in order until after Bad Player was lynched -- you can see in our QT how late I made that big set of summary posts. Before that it had never been together all in one place.

So really the medallion ploy had more than one good effect for us.

I'm sort of mad at myself (and the people affected should be mad at me) for not telling Earthling to protect based on my best guesses the last few nights, because as it turned out I would have gotten every one correct. (Specifically Winston, Khazaar, Krill.) That never happens.

Fun game, I basically spent it seeing how much damage a prophet could do without having a cabal to protect him. Still undetermined, but I think I met my PG several times over in this game.

Depends how much I was trusted. I nailed every single one of the Svarts except for landlubber. I knew Earthling could protect early on enough that I could have made myself perfectly safe, if I outed myself as the prophet.

Hello, Krill. Here is your role PM.

Philosopher
Strength: 2
Victory Condition: Innocent- Citizen
Personal Goal: Scan a Svartalfar
Ability: Deduction- Using your analysis skills, you may choose one person each night to scan for their PG.
Item: None
Gender: Male

I want to scan Autolycus please,

thanks in advance,

Krill

Autolycus's PG is-Find the book 'The Massacre Theory' and kill someone during the Massacre

I want to scan Renata please,

thanks in advance,

Krill

Renata's PG is- The Merchant will die

I want to scan Niklas please,

thanks in advance,

Krill

Niklas' PG is Find the person with the Medallion of Esus

I want to scan Earthling please,

thanks in advance,

Krill

Earthling's PG is: Protect a flurry from death

I want to scan Methos please,

thanks in advance,

Krill

Methos' PG is- Find the Knife and kill someone during the Massacre

I want to scan Diamondeye please,

thanks in advance,

Krill

Diamondeye's PG is- Survive to the end

I want to scan classical_hero please,

thanks in advance,

Krill

classical_hero's PG is resurrect a Svartalfar.

But, you may not reveal this in public or private, because you are dead.

 

[Renata]

I like your style.

 

[Krill]

Gotta say, it was fun acting as the nobody. I seem to have a lot of practice, most of my roles have a lack of ability.

I think the reason many people didn't fully trust Renata, was that if Landlubber had done his attack on a Svart, he would have made the wolf look innocent, which was what some people suspected. I think that happened in the Undercouncil game?

 

[Renata]

Also, I completely trusted you with more than enough warning to have protected you -- that's actually what I was getting at when I had that one conversation with you about you, Earthling, Zack, Khazaar ... I was offering you the chance to have "your" prophet protected, if you wanted it.

I'm not unhappy you didn't ask, though -- it was somewhat fitting with the pattern that had been set. Nice game.

 

[Renata]

Gotta say, it was fun acting as the nobody. I seem to have a lot of practice, most of my roles have a lack of ability.

I think the reason many people didn't fully trust Renata, was that if Landlubber had done his attack on a Svart, he would have made the wolf look innocent, which was what some people suspected. I think that happened in the Undercouncil game?

Not precisely; in that game it was the healer who would have been set up to look innocent. The person attacked actually would have been (by the standards of that game). This is part of why Winston distrusted Nictel.

I don't think I've ever seen one wolf attack another in any way.

 

[Krill]

Well, if the attack is only going to injure, and not reveal the faction, why not?

 

[Renata]

Not saying it couldn't happen ( if the GM allowed it), just that I've never seen it.

 

[civplayah]

If I may, I think the game setup was fine, but the actual GMing was a bit lacking. There were the issues about civplayah posting replies that actively took position, as Niklas noticed at one point in the thread, and the writeups weren't as inspired as I'm used to. It might just be me having a snobbish taste though

Well, I'm a new GM, and relatively poor at RP, but I hope I wasn't that bad (was I?). I'm on the queue for a mafia game, and the only way you can become a good GM is to practice, right?

So Civplayah, can you go into detail of my abilitiy?

What does a breadbox do? Earlier you said it could be important.

And if I rolled a higher number, what kinda of Item could I have made? A weapon of some sort?

Also to clarify something, could only Winston convert me? Or was I different from other innocents, and all flurries could convert me?

If you rolled a higher number, I'm not really sure what you might have made. Possibly a weapon, although I usually just winged it when the RNG results came up. Concerning the breadbox- if Nictel gave you food, over a period of two days your strength would increase by 2 instead of the normal 1. No, only the Flurry leader can convert.

 

[Zack]

-[Emperor Palpatine] Your overconfidence is your weakness [/YAY waiting for Star Wars Game]
The Svarts thought way too many "inactive" players were incompetent/inactive, and seemed to think too many times they had bought themselves off with arguments/convinced Renata especially (poor Renata for all this work but then she was really in control the whole time ). We did a good job of keeping some Innocents in line that way.

I'm flattered.

I was disappointed with the lack of private communication I had this game. In the Lord of the Rings game, I had about 80 PMs in my inbox halfway through (before I died), 70 something in my inbox for TFA's game... and only 10 or 15 this game, all from Renata, with 1 or 2 each from Methos and Autolycus.