Now, about the Koreans.....

[aronnax]

I am a South Korean and for all these years I found out that although has had a history spanning 4000 years, nobody knows our history.
Seriously, nobody does. I mean, some people dont know where Korea is,which leaves me in a state of frustration or a passion to become the ANGRY KOREA MAN,but do people here know about Korea's history?
Wwhen I read threads in this forum, I find a lot of people who are educated in history, so I would except some people to know; if u guys dont have a clue, I might just as well play the ANGRY KOREA MAN on CIV4

I furthest I can reach back is when Korea was wracked in a Civil War between three Kingdoms that rose in competition, the youngest and most southren of them, the Silla Kingdom manage to dominate over the other two and unite. Save for a few Jurchen raids, Korea maintained its indepedence til Han China, marched it troops in and conquered the Northen Areas and subjected the south to heavy vassalisation. After some time, possibly around 200AD, Korea regained its independence once more. I think it fell again to a Civil War.

Then its kinda blank until the Tang Dynasty conquered it again.
Then blank
Then Indepedence
Then there was this one king who created a Korean Script to replace the Chinese one. Popular with the peasants, not so much with the nobles.
Then blank
Then Mongolia comes in and swoops everything.
Then blank
Then indepedence
Then more blanks
Then the Seven Years war for Korea begins, with Hideyoshi of Japan invading the Penisula twice. At first, there was much sucess, the Japanese smashed it to the capital. With support from Ming China, they manage to halt its advance. But it was really from the Korea's Naval efforts by the Great General Yi-Shun-Something that really dented Japanese. One of his greatest victories was defeating an a huge armada of Japanese ships that run in the 100s with only a handful of ships himself as well as a "Turtle Ship". Wind factor as well as a torrent water current in a narrow rocky strip helped to defeat the Japanese. The Admiral statue stands in downtown Seoul today.
Then Blank
Then changing its name from the Korean Kingdom to Empire.
Then the Japanese forced the Royal family to yield its control and put the nation under Japanese Occupation for 40 more years in 1910.
Ends the 600 year reign of the House of Yi.
WWII ends and the two countries are spilt in half.
We know the story of the Korean War. You know?
North Korea invades, pushes to Pusan Corridor, UN and US troops push back to Yalu River, China repels them back to the original border. Seoul was taken 4 times and reduce from 1 million people to 200,000
Truce signs
Demilitarized Zone
Several Dictators later... Riots over American Meat.

I will think about reading on Korea a little more

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

I furthest I can reach back is when Korea was wracked in a Civil War between three Kingdoms that rose in competition, the youngest and most southren of them, the Silla Kingdom manage to dominate over the other two and unite. Save for a few Jurchen raids, Korea maintained its indepedence til Han China, marched it troops in and conquered the Northen Areas and subjected the south to heavy vassalisation. After some time, possibly around 200AD, Korea regained its independence once more. I think it fell again to a Civil War.

Then its kinda blank until the Tang Dynasty conquered it again.
Then blank
Then Indepedence
Then there was this one king who created a Korean Script to replace the Chinese one. Popular with the peasants, not so much with the nobles.
Then blank
Then Mongolia comes in and swoops everything.
Then blank
Then indepedence
Then more blanks
Then the Seven Years war for Korea begins, with Hideyoshi of Japan invading the Penisula twice. At first, there was much sucess, the Japanese smashed it to the capital. With support from Ming China, they manage to halt its advance. But it was really from the Korea's Naval efforts by the Great General Yi-Shun-Something that really dented Japanese. One of his greatest victories was defeating an a huge armada of Japanese ships that run in the 100s with only a handful of ships himself as well as a "Turtle Ship". Wind factor as well as a torrent water current in a narrow rocky strip helped to defeat the Japanese. The Admiral statue stands in downtown Seoul today.
Then Blank
Then changing its name from the Korean Kingdom to Empire.
Then the Japanese forced the Royal family to yield its control and put the nation under Japanese Occupation for 40 more years in 1910.
Ends the 600 year reign of the House of Yi.
WWII ends and the two countries are spilt in half.
We know the story of the Korean War. You know?
North Korea invades, pushes to Pusan Corridor, UN and US troops push back to Yalu River, China repels them back to the original border. Seoul was taken 4 times and reduce from 1 million people to 200,000
Truce signs
Demilitarized Zone
Several Dictators later... Riots over American Meat.

I will think about reading on Korea a little more

Yes, at least someone knows the generastuff; although you got some things wrong in the beginning; after the mythical Gojoseon(we DONT KNOW if It exists, probably didnt) dissolved, t Kingdoms of Buyeo, Okjeo and the Samhan Confederacy were made.
Aalso Goguryo and later Balhae ruled Manchuria; both were multiethnical countries.
Also one funny thing I noticed is that after the rioting over Aamerican Meat ended, prices soared for AMERICAN MEAT AND PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING TO GET AMERICAN MEAT
I personally would prefer american meat to chinese meat...might die from some unnown disease after eatig chinese meat

 

[Sharwood]

Yes, at least someone knows the generastuff; although you got some things wrong in the beginning; after the mythical Gojoseon(we DONT KNOW if It exists, probably didnt) dissolved, t Kingdoms of Buyeo, Okjeo and the Samhan Confederacy were made.
Aalso Goguryo and later Balhae ruled Manchuria; both were multiethnical countries.
Also one funny thing I noticed is that after the rioting over Aamerican Meat ended, prices soared for AMERICAN MEAT AND PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING TO GET AMERICAN MEAT
I personally would prefer american meat to chinese meat...might die from some unnown disease after eatig chinese meat

Just be glad you don't have to eat British meat then...

 

[plarq]

Yes, at least someone knows the generastuff; although you got some things wrong in the beginning; after the mythical Gojoseon(we DONT KNOW if It exists, probably didnt) dissolved, t Kingdoms of Buyeo, Okjeo and the Samhan Confederacy were made.
Aalso Goguryo and later Balhae ruled Manchuria; both were multiethnical countries.
Also one funny thing I noticed is that after the rioting over Aamerican Meat ended, prices soared for AMERICAN MEAT AND PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING TO GET AMERICAN MEAT
I personally would prefer american meat to chinese meat...might die from some unnown disease after eatig chinese meat

You know, I would rather lump Manchuria, Korea and far east Siberian history together, calling it "history of Northeastern Asia". People in this regions sharing similar languages, similar Shaman beliefs and interacted (war, submission and annexation) often.

Talking about Chinese meat, I already got several poisoning.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Yes, at least someone knows the generastuff; although you got some things wrong in the beginning; after the mythical Gojoseon(we DONT KNOW if It exists, probably didnt) dissolved, t Kingdoms of Buyeo, Okjeo and the Samhan Confederacy were made.
Aalso Goguryo and later Balhae ruled Manchuria; both were multiethnical countries.
Also one funny thing I noticed is that after the rioting over Aamerican Meat ended, prices soared for AMERICAN MEAT AND PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING TO GET AMERICAN MEAT
I personally would prefer american meat to chinese meat...might die from some unnown disease after eatig chinese meat

You know, I would rather lump Manchuria, Korea and far east Siberian history together, calling it "history of Northeastern Asia". People in this regions sharing similar languages, similar Shaman beliefs and interacted (war, submission and annexation) often.

Talking about Chinese meat, I already got several poisoning.

you actually could lump Siberia, Manchuria, Korea, and to an extent, Khitan and Mongol history together..... but then the Chinese lump Vietnam , Japan, Mongolia, Tuva, Turkic, Tibetan, Korean, and Taiwanese history into theirs....
China is ready to take over Asia;
Imagine my agony when I hear innoccent Chinese middle school students wondering why do those ignorant 'provinces'(they mean Vietnam , Japan, Mongolia, Tuva, Turkic, Tibetan, Korean, and Taiwanese history ) object to the 'Great China-ism' which made complete sense to them............
I restrained myself from taking action......

 

[plarq]

you actually could lump Siberia, Manchuria, Korea, and to an extent, Khitan and Mongol history together..... but then the Chinese lump Vietnam , Japan, Mongolia, Tuva, Turkic, Tibetan, Korean, and Taiwanese history into theirs....
China is ready to take over Asia;
Imagine my agony when I hear innoccent Chinese middle school students wondering why do those ignorant 'provinces'(they mean Vietnam , Japan, Mongolia, Tuva, Turkic, Tibetan, Korean, and Taiwanese history ) object to the 'Great China-ism' which made complete sense to them............
I restrained myself from taking action......

Well, as far as I know, Chinese nationalists and culture supremacists are beyond the scope of history textbooks. As long as the official history textbook strictly describe China as current territory holders and only including Tibetans and Taiwanese into "a part of Chinese history", we should not worry about it--instead, the right wing nationalists and fascists who demand it outside the official channel is worrying. But at least they canceled each other out: territorial imperialists praise Genghis Khan and Manchu Emperors while Han nationalists despise them.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Well, as far as I know, Chinese nationalists and culture supremacists are beyond the scope of history textbooks. As long as the official history textbook strictly describe China as current territory holders and only including Tibetans and Taiwanese into "a part of Chinese history", we should not worry about it--instead, the right wing nationalists and fascists who demand it outside the official channel is worrying. But at least they canceled each other out: territorial imperialists praise Genghis Khan and Manchu Emperors while Han nationalists despise them.

Imagine, Chinese people gloryfing Temujin and Kublai Khan and translatiing their Mongol names into funny Chinese ones, while The Mongolian are wondering if the Chinese are crazy for gloryifing the people who almost slaughtered them.

 

[plarq]

Imagine, Chinese people gloryfing Temujin and Kublai Khan and translatiing their Mongol names into funny Chinese ones, while The Mongolian are wondering if the Chinese are crazy for gloryifing the people who almost slaughtered them.

That's the problem, but don't worry, that's what those Han nationalists for. It's like Foxnews and MSNBC.

 

[Nerowannabe]

YOu know how Eat Asian scholars are when they try to give a date to their countries history. They try to make it as grand and long as possible

That's horrible the scholars eat Asians? Just playing with you mate all I know is some of Korea's more recent history (mid twentieth century and present). Thought that and what I get to go on the campaign in Empire Earth II...

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

That's the problem, but don't worry, that's what those Han nationalists for. It's like Foxnews and MSNBC.

We dont have those in mainland China; CHina has been brainwashing these guys into the Greater China mode of thought since Yuan Shikai when he the name the country the Republic of Greater China(i know tht name makes sense, but one has to understand understand the CHinese language to understand wht im talking about;fortunately, i speak five, and Chinese is one of them)

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Which five? I'm intrigued.

In a good way.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Which five? I'm intrigued.

In a good way.

english, japanese, chinese, korean, chinese, and cantonese if you count hongkong as a valid political entity

 

[TheLastOne36]

um......well the muslims at least have a sphere of influence(even if it is just nominal);Korea has no influence or a sphere of influence on anybody.
Poland had an interesting history;personally liked the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the pre-WWII period of their history when Pidulski(i cant remember how to spell his name correctly) sent the Soviet soldiers under Tukachevsky away( I recall that this war was called the Polish-Soviet War of1922)............
The oly influence Korea has on anybody is the electronics industry(Samsung, LG,etc) and the auto industry(Hyundai, KIA))

You forgot Sobieski!!! I'll go ANGRY POLISH MAN on you!! btw his name was Jozef Pilsudski.

 

[TheLastOne36]

FOR CHRIST'S SAKE ERETZ, USE THE MULTI-QUOTE BUTTON! YOU'VE ALREADY BEEN TOLD TO, AT LEAST TWICE!

There's a multi quote button??? Wow that would've saved me so much time and effort copy and pasting everything into one post...

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

You forgot Sobieski!!! I'll go ANGRY POLISH MAN on you!! btw his name was Jozef Pilsudski.

Thxs man. I love tht guy.

There's a multi quote button??? Wow that would've saved me so much time and effort copy and pasting everything into one post...

I dont see a multi-quote button; all i see is angry Sharwood

 

[Dachs]

Here you go:

 

[neutrino]

Goguryeo broke the Sui.

Form over substance: The repetitive failure of the Sui's campaign into Koguryo brought down that dynasty, but it did not take much time for the rise of Tang Dynasty. If anything, the Tang launched even more campaigns against Koguryo. Substituting a tough opponent for a tougher opponent .... OMG!

So much for the glories of Koguryo-Sui Wars. Perhaps the single most significant thing that eventually led to worsening Koguryo's strength relative to Cina was the grand north-south canal built under the reign of Yang Di (the second emperor of the Sui Dynasty). This canal allowed China to connect grain-rich south to conflict-prone north. Meanwhile, much of the battles were fought within Koguryo, not within China. Do some maths and Koguryo basically had little chance as attrition took relatively heavier toll on Koguryo than on China.

A simple geographic comparison should be enough: China has large, warmer southeastern provinces which have been the 'rice-bowl' for the rest of China. Not only that, in warmer climates, rice can be harvested more than once per year. Impossible in Korea as it has shorter summer. Climate alone strongly favors China. As for Koguryo, it has the largest landmass compared to Paekjae and Shilla, but that was all about it. There are some speculation as to why Koguryo have always struggled against Paekjae and Shilla; Koguryo's agricultural production was no better than these two smaller rivals. To sum this up: You need large surplus of foodstuffs to raise and maintain an army. Also, per each man you draft, one less farmer available.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Form over substance: The repetitive failure of the Sui's campaign into Koguryo brought down that dynasty, but it did not take much time for the rise of Tang Dynasty. If anything, the Tang launched even more campaigns against Koguryo. Substituting a tough opponent for a tougher opponent .... OMG!

So much for the glories of Koguryo-Sui Wars. Perhaps the single most significant thing that eventually led to worsening Koguryo's strength relative to Cina was the grand north-south canal built under the reign of Yang Di (the second emperor of the Sui Dynasty). This canal allowed China to connect grain-rich south to conflict-prone north. Meanwhile, much of the battles were fought within Koguryo, not within China. Do some maths and Koguryo basically had little chance as attrition took relatively heavier toll on Koguryo than on China.

A simple geographic comparison should be enough: China has large, warmer southeastern provinces which have been the 'rice-bowl' for the rest of China. Not only that, in warmer climates, rice can be harvested more than once per year. Impossible in Korea as it has shorter summer. Climate alone strongly favors China. As for Koguryo, it has the largest landmass compared to Paekjae and Shilla, but that was all about it. There are some speculation as to why Koguryo have always struggled against Paekjae and Shilla; Koguryo's agricultural production was no better than these two smaller rivals. To sum this up: You need large surplus of foodstuffs to raise and maintain an army. Also, per each man you draft, one less farmer available.

Thank you,finally another man who knows his Korean history!
But you have to admit, Goguryo kind of asked for the attacks of Sui and Tang. During Sui's attack, Goguryo survived cuz they had the General Ulchi Mundok;(and cuz Sui Yang Di was not too good on campaigns);
But the Tang, they linked up with Silla to knock Goguryo out.
Manchuria would have been Korea's if Balhae or Goguryo became the dominant power.

 

[neutrino]

Exactly my point. Aand the fact is there is no evidence all of these hpotheses by both Japanese and Korean scholars. They are never objective.......(well, i guess the most crazy scholars are the Chinese scholars unde Goverment payroll; they make no sense at all)

I think one of the most significant shortcomings among East Asian historians, compared to their western counterparts, is they weigh hypotheses and speculations as much as known recorded facts. (I think producers of historical dramas are worst offenders, though.) Also, the deeply-ingrained cultural norm of East Asia makes it rather difficult to treat history as a field of rigorous study, instead of it as a means to perpetuate national myths.

(Rather straightforward among Western historians to form historical associations and cooperate in research. The same sort of arrangement would be much more difficult among China, Japan and S. Korea, as their respective historiography have conflicting agendas.)

In much of East Asian culture, there has been no sharp distinction between history and mythology. Likewise, much less distinction between the state and the histories of its people.

 

[Dachs]

Form over substance: The repetitive failure of the Sui's campaign into Koguryo brought down that dynasty, but it did not take much time for the rise of Tang Dynasty. If anything, the Tang launched even more campaigns against Koguryo. Substituting a tough opponent for a tougher opponent .... OMG!

[etcetera]

So, how does that contradict anything that I said? I was simply clarifying (in a rather pithy way) something somebody else mentioned.