Now Is The Future!

[jbieksha]

GPS

This recent war is most disconcerning. The Americans violating an non-aggression pact with their neighbors?

Seems Russia and Aztecia may have to change priorities to assure their defense and preclude escalation by Blue American Allies.

 

[Tim Ford]

Dazz is right, France is bound by it's oath to America to help them. Most of Blue france would have been gone if it wasn't for America's help.

France deeply regrets this conflict, but we also understand why you are asking the international community for help. When India launched their surprise attack against us we were confused, angry, and hurt. We blamed ourselves for never pursuing diplomatic relations with our neighbor that could have prevented the attack. We approached the neighboring countries to help us fight off the attack. Germany declined, America accepted.

France had long suspected that the Germany-American war would take place, that is one of the main reasons we tried to involve Germany in the Indian-Franco war. France wanted our continent to stand together and forge strong ties. We felt that was the only way to keep the peace with so many cities so close together. Unfortunately the doors of diplomacy were never open far enough.

The people of France are full of remorse. We have always considered Germany a Pacifist with their large peaceful expansion, amazing culture development, and small army. However, if you are going to be a pacifist in Civ you still need to have strong diplomatic ties.

The peace treaty between Germany and France has long expired, we were never asked for a new one which we would have agreed to.

 

[Dazz_G]

America and now France have tried hard to justify their actions but in the end there is no justification.

Germany has always been peaceful and never moved against anyone.

We have always known the day would come where we would become 'the meat in the sandwich' positioned between America and France ... the lure of an easy peaceful target has obviously now become too great to deny.

 

[Tim Ford]

If you knew that would happen you should have taken diplomatic measures to prevent it or developed a suitable defensive army and navy. You have done neither. You are trying to vilify us diplomatically now but I think it will be too late. Any nation that tries to mobilize to come to your aid won't find a Germany left when they arrive. Your army is just too weak. Your own other country England is still moving troops about with Galleons.

Germany's claims that the boarder was roughly even are also false. My explorer and air intelligence showed that the boarder was pushed right up against his cities. This was one of the main reasons that France (who was initially against this conflict) was swayed to support the attack. America's initial landing on the French/German/American continent was not a threat to you, there was still plenty of land and you got much more than him anyways. Besides his blue American start was on an iceberg with no expansion options! Of course he had to settle with us. I'm sure he would have been very willing to keep the peace if it had not been for your very aggressive culture war.

I invite all other nations who look down on this attack and are starting to think that France and America are warmongers to click on the graph icon and pull up the Info Screen. If you switch the graph from score to culture you will see that Germany has a culture level that shot up at an alarming rate. This culture level is 500% higher than the average. The next highest culture is blue America who is desperately and futilely trying to keep up. All other nations can judge for themselves wether they consider this an act of aggression, however America and France do consider it an act of aggression and are responding appropriately.

I also want to assure all other nations that France and America are not attacking players for sport, nor do we have any plans to attack anyone else. America is defending it's right to exist and France is dutifully returning the favor. America has tried to fight back using only culture, but that is a war he cannot win because he has half as many cites as Germany, plus all of the turns that he could have been building culture buildings he was building troops to help France. That's just the kind of stand up guy Dogboy is. After the Franco-Indian war, America and France found themselves with a surplus of military units (a byproduct of any war). Dogboy asked for my help, I did the research and found his invasion justified.




To Dazz_G Germany…

I suggest you withdraw your navy and as many troops as possible to england and convert them to that civ. France gives our word that we will not fire on any retreating ships or units. America and France are also willing to accept a German surrender.

Here are the facts:

Frankfurt, Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Berlin, and Bremen have fallen.

We have killed 10 Infantry, 3 artillery, 1 Panzer, and 2 explorers with surprisingly little losses to our army due to their superior experience.

I sunk an empty transport and I don't know if the Americans sunk any of your ships.

Your remaining forces and cities are as such:
Essen 2 inf
Cologne 2 inf 1 fighter
Stuttgart 2 inf
Dortmund 2 inf
Munich 2 inf
Plus whatever your remaining navy is.

Half of your holdings are gone and we have the supply lines to take out the other half very soon. We are willing to spare the lives of your remaining army and navy so that you can take them to England to help shore up your defenses there and insure that that country does not share the same fate as Germany. In fact if you gift your units to France I will even deliver them myself, you have my work as a gentleman.

I beseech you to listen to reason. Cut your losses now, learn from your mistakes, and don't fight a fools war out of pride.

These are the our terms of surrender.
Do not counter attack our troops, navy, or air-force.
Give all the german money to England
Gift Munich to France
Gift Essen, Stuttgart, and Dortmund to Blue America.
Leave Cologne empty so that America can take it with out resistance (i'm sorry but your fighter will have to be lost)
Take all of your troops to neutral territory, once we have your cities we will declare peace with you. You will gift your units to Blue France. Blue france will immediately ferry them (with the exception of workers) to England and gift them back to you.

I am sending you the turn. We await your response.

 

[ruff_hi]

India 1 & 2 will not be talking any sides in this war.

However, please note re the above ... all Germany's troops will disappear if you kill off all of the German cities. You might need to leave 1 around until the troops have been repositioned. The alternative is Germany gifts one of his cities to England, gifts all of his troops to that city to England.

 

[Tim Ford]

I thought the games was set up to allow units to exist without cities, well anyways Ruff brings up a good point. After rethinking this if Dazz_G does accept the terms of surrender this would be smarter.

Move all of the German troops towards French Territory (after arriving name them "Engish" and gift them to France). Gift Munich to France and gift Essen, Cologne, and Dortmund to America.

Make sure the cities are empty before you give them to America because when you gift a city to another civ the units are gifted too and if America gets involved in the troop exchange too it will just be more of a headache.

After France receives all of the troops they will alert the USA which will take Stuttgart with no resistance.

Thank you Ruff_Hi for the suggestions. I would like to save the lives of those soldiers.

 

[DogBoy]

GPS

This recent war is most disconcerning. The Americans violating an non-aggression pact with their neighbors?

Seems Russia and Aztecia may have to change priorities to assure their defense and preclude escalation by Blue American Allies.

To Russia/Aztec: I want to point out that America did not violate a non-aggression alliance with anybody. Blue America and Germany had a non-aggressive alliance which expired and we were never asked to renew it.

You have my word that Blue America's Allies will not attack Russia and Aztec because we still have a non-aggressive with you. I trust you will uphold your end of the alliance. In fact, we have open borders and share the same religion which I did to show you I wanted to be your friend.

To the Germans: I don't think anybody is buying your statement about pushing the cultural boundaries to a neutral point. All anybody has to do is hit F8 and look at the cultural score. I can also provide screenshots showing the cultural progress. I urge you to listen to reason and accept France's (and mine also) peace deal.

To the world: America and France and not super-powers looking to divide the world amongst ourselves. Blue France was in danger of being extinct and America came to her aid. Would any of you do less if you had a mutual progression pact? Now Blue America is in danger of being swallowed by Germany and is fighting to survive. Would any of you do less? America hopes to live in peace after this war is over.

 

[jbieksha]

Actions and words don't seem to match. France says they are not warmongers. America implies it only wants to feed their startving citizens, yet your goal is to annilate the entire country of Germany?

This does not bode well.

 

[DogBoy]

The only reason Germany needs to be gone is because their cultural push is too high. For example, I captured a city 4 spaces away from my nearest city. Even after doing that, another city that is 4 spaces away at a diagonal is still pushing up to my American city and starving it. Therefore, this one city is pushing so much cultural that even after taking away his city nearest me, my citizens are still starving. That city is so far away and it's still starving me! I urge you to sail a ship up there, see what cultural boundaries Germany is pushing, and you will see for yourself. Don't take my word for it, don't take France's word for it, and don't take Germany's word for it. Believe your eyes.

 

[Dazz_G]

It was already assumed by the German High Command that, by the time our troops got a chance to retaliate, things would already be too far gone.

Germany has, therefore, no alternative but to accept the terms of surrender.

It may be said by some that, by saying what i'm about to say, that it is a matter of sour grapes or that I am trying to stir things up a bit (i'm very capable of both ) but this is the situation as I GENUINELY see it ...

I have never denied utilising cultural methods to push American borders back but in doing so, I don't believe I did anything wrong. It was never our intention of trying to swallow up American cities ... it simply was a matter of quite some game time ago when American culture had pushed our borders right back against a few of our cities and our people were starting to starve. Therefore I utilised cultural buildings and a Great Artist or two in order to push the borders back to allow my cities room to survive.

France says that, due to America solely building troops to aid her in her time of need, America was unable to compete against me with cultural buildings. Likewise, as I was solely building cultural buildings, I was unable to build an adequate military.

Now the roles are reversed ... instead of my cities starving, American cities are starving. The difference is, I didn't try to solve the problem with military means - I used peaceable methods.

And that is where everyone can make their own minds up ... is America justified ?

I feel Joe is right ... this doesn't bode well at all.

 

[Tim Ford]

Man this game has gotten interesting today!

(And lets all remember it's just a game.)

 

[Tim Ford]

France accepts germanys surrender and will make transporting the troops a top priority.

As far as that "bode well" stuff goes I give you my word that Dogboy and I have not made a secret pact to conquer the world. We are not planning on attacking any other human players with the intent of taking over the world.

To start an interesting discussion. Is a large culture push considered peaceful or an act of war? I've always considered it a little sneaky, but it wasn't until I saw the German culture off of the charts that I considered it could be counted as an act or war. What does everyone else think?

 

[ruff_hi]

Make sure the cities are empty before you give them to America because when you gift a city to another civ the units are gifted too

That statement is not correct. The units are not gifted if you gift the city. India #2 specifically gifted units to the city gifted to India #1. For a turn or two, the gifted cities had zero India #1 units it it ... only units from India #2.

 

[ruff_hi]

re looking at the cultural position - how about we trade maps so I don't have to sail a boat all the way over there?

 

[jbieksha]

I don't think cultural flips are sneaky, or acts of war. Consider it a revolution against your own empire. If yo ignore your outskirts, and the grass is greener, then your citizens will go over.

Maybe a nice topic for one of the strategy threads?

 

[Tim Ford]

I feel that way when playing against a computer, but if I did that to a human player I would def feel like I was taking stuff from them. I like to maintain my boarders right in the middle.

 

[Dazz_G]

I'm probably biased but I believe its a matter of putting it into perspective and also a matter of personal opinion.

If you drop a settler on someone else's island, found a city then bombard the natives with culture then the natives might consider this an act of war. If you do this late game when the natives have considerable culture, then in order to avoid the culture flip, you pretty much have to bombard with your own culture.

In my situation, a nation I viewed as foreign landed on my shores and popped a few cities. The culture he possessed had pinned my borders on my doorstep ... check out the culture graph ... I didn't view this as an act of war. Instead I utilised my own culture potential to push the borders back again. I didn't see this as an act of war either but like I said, thats a matter of opinion.

I have to say though, that the extent to which I outstripped America's culture surprised me somewhat. I think this was largely due to the fact America was building military units solely ... had she been buildin g cultural improvements, then I think my culture explosion may never have happened or at least to a much lesser degree and to this end I think what happened was a matter of accidental timing.

I concur with Joe ... the effect my efforts had certainly raises questions as to the viability of it as a legitimate strategy.

 

[DogBoy]

Blue America is pleased to announce that we have accepted peace with Germany. However, we will need to declare war on them again in the very near future in order to capture Stuttgart since they were not able to gift us their capital. We trust that two turns will be sufficient for Germany to move their troops to French lands in order to gift them to France as France has GENEROUSLY offered to move them to English lands.

 

[Tim Ford]

France isn't sweating it. France has enough transports.

 

[DogBoy]

Guys,
Going to the field for Army training Monday morning and will be gone about two weeks. See you when I get back.

DogBoy