nvm

Xarthaz, at this point you and I are debating each other's logic using our own premises, which is pointless so I suppose we both offered each other our argument and can leave it at that.

& heavy civilian weapon use(due to it not being regulated) makes it difficult to eliminate guerilla warfare (aka afghanistan situation),

Aha! Utopia!
 
As for the weapon use, i meant heavy by the lines of what the US has today with small arms, which is very big compared to european countries!
Which is also the state over most of the world. Besides, wouldn't small-arms possession increase in proportion to a decrease in the power of the state?
 
We should then analyse what makes our premises contradictory and how likely either are to be. Perhaps you should start with it since I dont really understand how seperate our distinct premises.
Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of war, where every man is enemy to every man, the same consequent to the time wherein men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them withal. In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
 
xarthaz said:
i assume this is a joke because i cant decipher it
You're essentially advocating a state of nature and you can't recognize the writings of the man who invented the concept? :confused: Read up on your Leviathan, man. Along with the concept of the state of nature, in that very paragraph Thomas Hobbes invented the concept of the war of all against all - the most fundamental criticism of your anarchic society.

It may be an archaic translation, but Hobbes hits all of the major stuff - there will be no industry because of the perpetual state of fear that occurs in a time of war, which occurs whenever man distrusts others - this is all the time in a stateless society.
 
War is defined by Hobbes not simply by war itself, but by distrust of man. The war of man against every other man exists because man will always distrust other men in a stateless society. This is true from the fact that there is a need for protection to begin with. Competition is unnecessary when it's far easier to take another man's wealth, and if when know that the other man would do the same if he had the chance. An-cap leads to his chaos because it completely lacks an ability to enforce laws outside of retribution. You cannot have a voluntary code of laws. It lacks a guarentee of property rights, again, outside of retribution - those enterprises can only have as much wealth as they can protect, which is far, far less than is possible in a state which enforces property rights; the military power of the PDAs will be far more limited in power projection than that of the state, due to the free rider problem. Not even including the fact that it would be extraordinarily expensive to maintain a strong enough army.

Also, people are not going to have their own liberty as a high priority when their survival is at stake; the vast majority of people are willing to form social contracts, and spontaneously do so in an anarchy. Your anarcho-capitalism will either be war against every other man or will quickly convert to nothing more than a huge collection of microstates. The former is undesirable, and the latter is no longer anarchy, although it is a state of war amongst the microstates.
 
Ok i can understand how war can cause the things he is saying, but how does an-cap lead to this chaos? How does it lead to a war between every man? Competition, i understand, but war? It contradicts the data given by Hygro conserning people's ability to kill.
People's comfort with killing can change with conditioning and motivation. When part of a mob people can become very comfortable killing. When punishing subhuman devient behavior, as defined by whatever conservatism is popular, killing becomes very possible even for the average person. Some of that requires a certain amount of authority. Not all of it.

Furthermore, killing is not the only act of war. While bayonet charges yielded a very low rate of actual stabbings, the amount of people un-fatally slashed (which can lead to death of course), or bludgeoned viciously would be very high. The typical human's rejection of killing won't stop them from pillaging, stealing, raping, beating, imprisoning, torturing, and otherwise destroying other people. And few humans object to killing when there's the impersonal distance of artillery, machine guns, or anything even more remote. It's not that the low rate of killers make war, violence, fear any rarer. It means fewer people have that violent courage to effectively stop those that do.
 
Being the probable future form of government(Why? It distributes resources most efficiently due to competition and free market in all areas of society), it is a good idea to discuss it.

A good point to start with is the skepticism of privately owned governments being able to maintain peace due to conflicts between each other and due to members of different governments being involved in legal issues.

The answer is: it is in the interests of private governments to solve problems peacefully, as an attack against a government representing someone else will surely attract a counterattack and cause the destruction of the capital of those who pay for the governments clients. Thus, only rational, peaceful governments will be able to keep their customers.

[citation needed]

Anarchy is good for neither socialism nor capitalism.
 
I love capitalism, but know Anarcho-capitalism could not work. Too bad half my political club on campus doesn't realize that yet. I'll feel bad when reality breaks it to them.
 
See, even someone with a political compass left/right score of 10 can see that anarcho-capitalism cannot work.
 
Socialism: If there's no government, who regulates?

Capitalism: See above.
Anarchy doesn't necessarily mean a lack of government, it means a lack of hierarchical, imposed government. Anarchist societies operate on the principle of voluntary co-operation, not imposed cooperation, and may still self-regulate while adhering to such a principle.
As for anarcho-capitalism, the point, as I have been lead to believe, is pretty much that no-one regulates, and so it's adherents are unlikely to be phased by the lack of the very activity they wish to eliminate.

See, even someone with a political compass left/right score of 10 can see that anarcho-capitalism cannot work.
You do understand the principal of Political Compass' dual axes, don't you?
 
I would surmise that without the lack of recognized authority, things would revert to a variety of informal coercive relationships having only the potential to be just as fair.
 
Coercive force isnt necessary for authority to exist. People choose the private courts they trust and authorize them to have power by doing that. PDA-s have authority in that, they have the power to use the money from their clients to protect their interests.

Why would people choose a "private court" at all? They can't enforce the law.
 
Anarchy doesn't necessarily mean a lack of government, it means a lack of hierarchical, imposed government. Anarchist societies operate on the principle of voluntary co-operation, not imposed cooperation, and may still self-regulate while adhering to such a principle.

Generally, government is considered to be an inherently hierarchical body; a body above general society, with authority over it. As such, personally I would not refer to anarchist direct democracy, in which every member of the commune has an equal say, as a form of government. In fact, if anything I'd say it's the antithesis of government.
 
Do you have a social contract of buying coke and only using state transport? People need to get over this stigma of personal defense being any different from other services

What the crap? Dude, this isn't about "personal defense", this is about the instrument of war. This is different from other services. PDAs will *not* simply be used for defense. This is because it is a more efficient method to enforce your will over others than money. You cannot threaten to kill someone through money. You can earn money through intimidation, and it's been pretty a successful method for the past 6000 years.

Laws work on retribution in any state just as well. Nothing prevents you from killing people, nothing prevents Russia from launching all its 5000 nukes at other countries, except the fear of negative consequences. The same principles can work at a smaller scale, if people are educated enough to support such ideas.

...there's other things that prevent me from killing people other than the fear of negative consequences, such as the fact that murder is immoral, but whatever. You're not going to get people in a stateless society to be educated as they will be worrying more about other things than education, such as survival.


Is every country in a constant state of war against each other simply because there is no central power that controls countries? No. When countries know that hostility leads to wrecked reputation and retaliations, they dont do it. Russia ignored that principle and lost tons of investors after Georgian war.

Absolutely every country is in a constant state of war against each other. The international system is entirely anarchic - there are no set of laws that binds nations together. This is true even despite the existence of international agreements, but those are voluntary agreements.


How does the presence free riders hurt the PDA-s more than a state?
Because PDAs presumably wouldn't enforce taxation, and PDAs would be offering protection to others merely than those who protect If you're in some community which is being protected by a PDA but don't have the PDA defending you, if the PDA defends against some bandit raid against the community, you are a free rider.

after all, isnt the state a collection of relative free riders by itself(due to low efficiency of any work done by a state) and doesnt tax evasion(relatively easy thanks to inefficient goverment regulation) create the ultimate oppurtunity for enjoying services without doing jack for it. It seems to me like free-riderism is in correlation with the level of socialism.
No. The state exists to eliminate free riders. The state is the of the primary means to eliminae free riders. The state eliminates free riders through taxation. The level of tax evasion is irrelevant when you're comparing to a system in which there's no taxes.


PDA-s can impose their own codes of laws which people that choose to use their services also choose to obey.
You said "private court systems." So the PDAs own the law system now?

How is this society any different than a collection of chaotic microstates again? Doesn't sound very anarchist too me.

Negotiations between PDA-s representing different world views and the use of private courts(in whose interest it is to not to make the highest bidder win due to it ruining their reputation and possibility to earn profit) ease differences between the companies.
Again, why the hell won't a PDA simply try to influence private courts? Nothing is stopping corruption here, especially when the primary motivation is money, and it's pretty easy to gain a profit if you're being bribed. Or being intimidated through force.

at least provide some arguments other than ad.hominem to prove your point, otherwise we have no reason to take you seriously
You're not being taken seriously, as it is quite obvious to anyone that this system will not work, therefore you are being ridiculed.

Coercive force isnt necessary for authority to exist. People choose the private courts they trust and authorize them to have power by doing that. PDA-s have authority in that, they have the power to use the money from their clients to protect their interests.
First of all, people arn't going to be able to obtain as much money as in a system with full enforcement of property rights. Second of all, the reason why we have authority is precisely because it is eventually enforced through coercion. Your CEO may be your authority, and your contracts voluntary etc, but the existence of the CEO's authority is created by the state, which allows the formation of a corporation and enforcement of corporate law. You must do what your boss told you because in the long run if you do something illegal, such as stay at your job when you're fired, you will run afoul of the law.

Your system has absolutely no method to combat corruption outside of mere trust, and that does not work without the existence of a state to enforce the law. There is no rule of law as PDAs do not have any incentive whatsoever to weaken themselves by having the law apply to themselves. States, on the other hand, do have an incentive to reduce corruption, assuming that the states are not merely the possessions by the government - which PDAs will eventually do, anyway.

ANd dont bring the argument of PDA-s not being able to be formed, because of social contract and state immediately forming in anarchy, because a revolutionary change to an-cap is certainly not what im advocating, rather a steady evolutionary path to first a minarchist state, to then gradually eliminating public courts and allowing pda-s to form and create a mature market before complete freedom established
Read Jennifer Government.

in many cases people dont need enforcement, they just need someone neutral to decide over their dispute, and if a judge has a good rep, both of the people agree on him, then thats enough, no need to involve PDA-s in it except its criminal stuff.
Sure they need enforcement. There's plenty of failures of arbitration which is pointless if it's not enforced - see the UN. However, courts do much more than merely arbitration, they enforce sentences as well, such as compensation for crimes. There is no way in hell that a person who is told to give an item he stole back to the original owner will do it if there is no enforcement of the law.
 
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