OB01 - Time Gentlemen!

[Conroe]

This proves a Culture Bomb on the long run isn't as good as settling a GA,

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just dense, but I don't follow what you mean. I think the culture bomb was absolutely the right thing to do. It gave us, at the time, our only source of iron.

FP for Delphi
Ironworks for Zapata
Hermitage for Culture
Oxford for Timbucktu?

Didn't we build the Heroic Epic in Zapata? If so, I think we should build the Ironworks somewhere else. I like to put West Point (+4xp) in my HE city. I think Ironworks should go somewhere like Djenne or Kumbi Saleh.

Hermitage definitely goes in Culture. Also a couple of Cathedrals should be built in the city, as time allows.

I'm Ok with Oxford in Timbuktu. However, Wall Street may be a better choice. I'm thinking we built a Hindu shrine in our capital. How does everyone feel about Oxford and Wall St in the same city?

 

[Xtream_Rockstar]

hey everybody i gotts my computer back and i can play

 

[Ozbenno]

Didn't we build the Heroic Epic in Zapata? If so, I think we should build the Ironworks somewhere else. I like to put West Point (+4xp) in my HE city. I think Ironworks should go somewhere like Djenne or Kumbi Saleh.

Yeah, you're right on this one.

I'm Ok with Oxford in Timbuktu. However, Wall Street may be a better choice. I'm thinking we built a Hindu shrine in our capital. How does everyone feel about Oxford and Wall St in the same city?

I like having both in the highest gold city, and can see no better city for either wonder at this time.

National Epic - Nieni?

 

[Conroe]

National Epic - Nieni?

You mean like a GP farm? That would be a good site. But, I think we already cottaged the flood plains.

 

[Ozbenno]

You mean like a GP farm? That would be a good site. But, I think we already cottaged the flood plains.

Right, get the bulldozers in then . Anyway, can't you have National Epic in a pretend GP farm.

 

[FuRRie]

Conroe: some time ago there was a discussion on the forums what's best, using the Great work to get an instant +4000 in a city, or merge the GA with the city to get + 12 each turn.
It was then shown that in the long run, merging the GA was in most cases better then using the Great work for the instant culture.
In our situation it was best to use the Great Work indeed, it's just now, in a later stage we also have the culture war.

 

[Cabledawg]

Oxford and Wall Street seem fine for capitol. Build natl thingy at Niani and farm over everything. Its not like we have generated a ton of GP's, so Niani could really pump out a few in quick succession.

Which means, those watermills at the capitol need some bulldozing as well.

 

[Xtream_Rockstar]

so build cottages around the capital 2 gain the max effect of Oxford and Wall street

 

[Ozbenno]

OK, a roster

Ozbenno - ordering bulldozers
Cabledawg - just brought Alex to his knees
FuRRie - UP
Conroe - still wondering about the opposite of progress
Xtream - is back and raring to go

 

[Conroe]

Conroe: some time ago there was a discussion on the forums what's best, using the Great work to get an instant +4000 in a city, or merge the GA with the city to get + 12 each turn.
It was then shown that in the long run, merging the GA was in most cases better then using the Great work for the instant culture.
In our situation it was best to use the Great Work indeed, it's just now, in a later stage we also have the culture war.

Well, I obviously have not read that thread. But, I can already tell that I do not agree with it. To say that one way or the other is best depends entirely upon your objective!

Our objective was to steal an iron source from Cyrus. We knew we were going to be in a culture war with Cyrus before we even had the city. IIRC it was Ozbenno that pointed that out to us.

The original plan was for Culture to start constructing culture producing buildings to establish its own culture base. Hermitage was always planned for this city. Unfortunately, Alex declaring war and us city defenders was not part of the original plan.

But, that's what makes this game interesting, right?

 

[Ozbenno]

The original plan was for Culture to start constructing culture producing buildings to establish its own culture base. Hermitage was always planned for this city. Unfortunately, Alex declaring war and us city defenders was not part of the original plan.

But, that's what makes this game interesting, right?

Bingo. If Alex hadn't declared on us, we would have many more culture buildings in Culture and wouldn't be in a culture war.

FuRRie is right as well, culture wars are won by culture produced per turn, not by "absolute" culture.

Munterpipe had an idea to win a SG by domination, with "Always Peace" selected . Many people said it couldn't be done but it could and Ruff and Sullla took up the challenge as well. They are all great reads to discover how culture wars are won and lost. Sullla's report was on Realms Beyond but I couldn't find it.

 

[Xtream_Rockstar]

besides real war is better than culture war

 

[FuRRie]

Got the game, i'll try to play tonight, might be tomorrow

 

[FuRRie]

Played 8 turns to get us back on a decent number of remaining turns (205 Left)

T1: Djenne: Grocer -> Market

T2: Timbuktu: Bank -> Courthouse
I increase Science spending to 70% to get Democracy in 2 turns

T3: Kumbi: Grenadier -> Monastery
Gao: Grenadier -> Theatre
Sparta: Theatre

T4:


Well, no surprise there


I select Rifling as our next tech

Uzbek: Grenadier -> Bank
Thermopolae: Granry -> Theatre
We pop a GE in Uzbek (I fortify him for now in the city)

T5: Kumbi: Monastary -> Temple

T6:Kumbi: Temple -> Jail
Gao: Theatre -> Market
Niani: Courthouse -> Library
Athens: Forge -> Theatre
Sparta: Theatre -> Courthouse

T7: Zapotec: Bank -> Library
Culture -> Theatre -> Courthouse

T8: Timbuktu: Courthouse -> Temple
Djenne: Market -> Bank
Walata: Grenadier -> Grenadier

 

[FuRRie]

And the save:

http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=other&file=OB_01_AD_1725.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Cabledawg]

Good turns Fur....Took a look at the save and we can save 25GPT if we terminate all the Jumbos, cats, longbows. Even with those gone, we still have a big army.

25GPT is alot. Weve proven that even with a smaller army, we can win....so lets reduce our numbers and spread out those northern forces to some of the lighter defended southern cities.

We are currently at 60% research making 101GPT....I say we turn that down even further. I looked at Zapotec and its building a Library...that city is currently generating 1 beaker....but then i realized, we still need more universities for oxford and Zapotec can build stuff quick.

We havent started SOL yet....Are we gonna use the GE on SOL? I think we should.

Timbuk has a 53% chance to get a great prophet. If we get him, lets build the confused shrine and spread both our religions massively. Were gonna need alot of cash in the future. Can we start running merchants if we get the prophet next?....that might be good for some cash.

 

[FuRRie]

The Library in Zapotec is also for the culture.

 

[Ozbenno]

We havent started SOL yet....Are we gonna use the GE on SOL? I think we should.

And have we revolted to Emancipation?

SoL should be the plan! Once its built I'd revolt to mercantilism and representation as well. Mercantilism will also stop the AI picking up juicy trade routes from us.

Culture might be a good spot to GE the SoL?

 

[Conroe]

I think I might be up. I might be able to play this tonight, otherwise it will be tomorrow night.
Edit: Sorry, but I'm too tired. I will play and report tomorrow (Saturday) night.

Culture might be a good spot to GE the SoL?

I'm thinking our GP farm would be a good spot for the Statue of Liberty. It would give the city a bit of a jump start on GP generation.

As for the Great Engineer ... Has Versailles been built by an AI, yet? As widespread as our empire is, that would be a nice wonder to snatch from under their noses. We'd have to do a quick trade to pick up Divine Right, first. Any thoughts?

I'll try and download the save here in a bit and see how feasible an idea it really is.

Edit: Versailles has already been built by Japan. So I'll use the GE on the SoL in Niani unless anyone objects. Unfortunately, the GE will only give us about half the hammers for the statue. Better than nothing, I guess.

 

[Conroe]

Turn 255 (1725 AD)
I decide to start the show off by MM'ing all of our cities. I want to crack the one last time before we lose slavery. I am especially hard on the in the former Greek towns! I also decide to change up a few of the builds, in line with our discussion about wonders.
Timbuktu begins: University we need 3 more for Oxford
Walata begins: Hindu Mandir the city is losing tiles to Peter
Culture begins: Hermitage
Niani begins: The Statue of Liberty

Next, time to change civics.
Revolt to Universal Suffrage from Hereditary Rule
Revolt to Free Speech from Bureaucracy
Revolt to Emancipation from Slavery
We get more hammers, more culture, more commerce, and faster cottage growth. Not to mention the very un-sportsman-like happiness penalty against our opponents!

I notice that Cyrus and Tokugawa are sitting on some extra gold. I renegotiate our iron deal with Tokugawa to suck a bit more gold out of him. I decide to leave the Cyrus deal alone for the time being. If we can get him to stop trading with Vicky, we can get his spare marble. While I'm at it, I decide to hit Tokugawa up for a free handout.
Tech learned: Optics its a prerequisite for Astronomy.

And finally, I lower the research slider to 50% per Cabledawg's suggestion. Our research into Rifling remains at 3 turns after the change.

Turn 256 (1730 AD)
Zapotec finishes: Library and begins: University need 3 more for Oxford
Awdaghost finishes: Grocer and begins: University need 3 more for Oxford
Delphi finishes: Forge and begins: Library
Tadmekka finishes: Grenadier and begins: Worker need a lot more!
Thermopylae finishes: Theatre and begins: Jewish Temple need 1 more for a Cathedral
Athens finishes: Theatre and begins: Granary
Sparta finishes: Courthouse and begins: Granary

Turn 257 (1735 AD)
Kumbi Saleh finishes: Jail and begins: Worker
Since we are now down to five Workers, it makes sense to build more.

IBT:

Turn 258 (1740 AD)
Tech learned: Rifling and Research begun: Military Tradition for West Point
Our next research path was a tough decision. I considered Astronomy; however, we're still building Universities, let alone Observatories. And I was really tempted to go after coal and start building Railroads. But in the end, I think I'd like to get West Point constructed before anyone declares on us again.
Athens finishes: Granary and begins: Barracks

It looks like it is going to cost 2000 gold to upgrade all of our Longbowmen to Riflemen. That is a bit steep. I go ahead and disband all of the archery units that have no experience. I also disband all of our remaining melee units. The remaining are upgraded to Riflemen.

IBT:
Narak (Great Prophet) born in Timbuktu

Turn 259 (1745 AD)
Kumbi Saleh finishes: Worker and begins: Worker
Tadmekka finishes: Worker and begins: Worker
Sparta finishes: Granary and begins: Barracks
Our Great Prophet heads to Kumbi Saleh and all of the priests in Tumbuktu get fired and put to work.

Turn 260 (1750 AD)
Zapotec finishes: University and begins: Worker
Kumbi Saleh finishes: The Kong Miao

IBT:
Mao's timing could not have been worse! On the same turn that Cyrus has marble available to trade ...

I wish I could have agreed to this ... I really do. I would like nothing better to improve relations with Mao, in the hopes that we could then bribe him to declare on Victoria. But, we need the marble to speed up the production of some of these wonders we have to build.

Turn 261 (1755 AD)
Kumbi Saleh finishes: Worker and begins: Worker
Gao finishes: Market and begins: Confucian Temple need 1 more for a Cathedral
Uzbek finishes: Bank and begins: Rifleman
Thermopylae finishes: Jewish Temple and begins: Library for culture & commerce

I renegotiate our banana deal with Cyrus to pick up some marble.

IBT:
Now look who's feeling his oats ...

Sorry dude ...

Turn 262 (1760 AD)
Tech learned: Military Tradition and Research begun: Steam Power
It's tempting to research Corporation for the extra trade routes, but I think I'd rather know where our coal is so that we can start thinking about railroads. It takes a unit 10 turns to go from the top of our empire to the bottom.

Zapotec finishes: Worker and begins: West Point
Delphi finishes: Library and begins: Forbidden Palace I can't believe I forgot to queue this up earlier!
Tadmekka finishes: Worker and begins: Worker

Turn 263 (1765 AD)
Djenne finishes: Bank and begins: Jail
Kumbi Saleh finishes: Worker and begins: Worker almost done
Gao Confucian Temple and begins: Confucian Academy for the culture wars
Athens finishes: Barracks and begins: Library for culture & beakers