Obama's Speech Today

[MobBoss]

I see pedophile is the new Hitler on line. It is no longer ejoyable to banter with you. Cheers.

Rofl. /carves another notch on his keyboard. Yeah, I hear that a lot when my opponents arguement gets riddled full of holes.

Perhaps another term similar to Godwin is required then. Whenver someone mentions 'pedophile' in a thread, could we just call it a 'Mark' as in 'you just Marked the thread'?

 

[Truronian]

Are you attempting to say that black churches are not the center of most black communities, and that the leaders of those churches are not the prominent leaders/spokepersons for those communities?

Gee, I wonder who the prominant leader/spokesperson of a community containing Barack Obama will be?

Yeah, obviously their influence is insignificant. Its not like we didn't see the entire church yelling and dancing with great mirth at the mention "THE US of KKK A!!!"

We didn't... have you actually watcheed that clip???

Apoligists such as yourself are known to show a blind eye to bigotry, racism, and the real problems of minority communities. I actually whole heartedly believe each one of your 's

The 's were symbolising my distaste for your belittling of child rape... which you can try to dodge if you must.

 

[luiz]

o the people that mistreated them are not worthy of their anger?

Sure they are, but where are they? Did you mistreat any blacks? Did any of your friends take part in a lynching? I think not.

We aren't talking about slavery two centuries ago. We are talking about people who were actually mistreated by our government/society being angry about it. Are they not allowed to voice their anger? May I ask why?

The society that mistreated them is long gone. As for the government, it is a democracy and the current governments were not elected by segregationists.

Stupid has nothing to do with it. Under-educated maybe, but not stupid. I think this is the point where I discount your opinion because you do not live here and are therefore too ignorant of the subject matter to construct an informed opinion.

I never said, I only pointed out that foreigners usually have the wrongest opinion. This is true for the US too.

But if you want to play that game, I've been to the US 6 times. How many have you come to South America?

 

[Gecko1]

And you'd get in more trouble, too. Of course, he has a drivers license. Critical thinking skills, they're important.


I dunno about the West Side, but there's a boy from the South Side of Chicago running for president right now....but don't let me ruin your view of "rasist" America.


Godwin's!


I don't think anyone here is saying that the way the educational system is currently set up is perfect, or even near it. It's definitely screwed up. But what you're effectively doing is blaming white people, and that doesn't work. Blame how teachers are hired, blame the way school funding is apportioned, whatever - but making this a racial "BLACK PEOPLE ARE GETTING SCREWED AND HAVE NO HOOOOOOOOOOPE" won't get you anywhere. Now where did I say that it was directly white people's fault? I was just explaining why the slums exist and why there is no way out. White people get screwed by this same system too, just that not in the same proportion as Blacks.


OK, how much actual discrimination have you faced in your life? How much of this is just a perception of how things are?

Have you ever been beaten up for being black? Have you ever been publicly insulted because of your race, by people who don't publicly insult whites in a similar manner? (Getting called names by the school bully doesn't count, unless he only picks on black kids) Have you ever actually had to wait two hours at a restaurant to get seated? Have you ever actually been pulled over and harassed by the police for absolutely no reason?

I doubt it. You're exaggerating Gecko, and you're repeating certain things as true for ALL African Americans. I have no doubt each and every one of those things has happened to somebody - but not all, or most blacks in America. And you'll never change anything so long as you see how things are in the manner that you do. Painting America as a racist land where blacks are continually oppressed and screwed over by whites at every turn is not only dead wrong, but it's offensive and counter-productive. If you actually read and didn't just decide to misquote me then you would have seen the part that said that, I know I was exaggerating and that these don't happen to all Black people. It just happens muc too often.

Have a specific, tangible problem with the status quo? Bring it up, and if you have a point, most people, white or not, will listen to you. But this general "America's racist!!" ranting isn't an argument, and won't get you anywhere. People will just ignore you, and think that you're being dumb - and that helps, how? Specific, reasoned, intelligent arguments trump emotional rants every single time. My argument was taht racism still exists and that MobBoss can't discount that.

Listen to me, or don't Gecko, it's your call.

Misquoting is a very good tactic, you guys have perfected it, I think I'll use it now.

 

[GenMarshall]

Misquoting is a very good tactic, you guys have perfected it, I think I'll use it now.

It's also against the rules as well. (IIRC the mods did made a notice about it a while ago)

 

[Gecko1]

It's also against the IIRC mods

Why?

 

[Archbob]

Look dude, if the majority of your race isn't willing to work hard, like you are, and pull themselves up out of the slums, whose fault is that?

Many black people have already shown that it can be done. The fact that most African-Americans refuse to follow their example is not some white guy's fault. Wright is preaching that all the current African American problems are the white man's fault even going so far as saying white man created Aids.

Like it or not, he is injecting racial hatred into this congregation and polarizing not uniting the country.

Maybe instead of blaming everything on white men, he should be encouraging black kids to do well in school, work hard, and get into a good college. Because, you know, that actually might help the situation down the line.

 

[Gecko1]

Look dude, if the majority of your race isn't willing to work hard, like you are, and pull themselves up out of the slums, whose fault is that?

Many black people have already shown that it can be done. The fact that most African-Americans refuse to follow their example is not some white guy's fault. Wright is preaching that all the current African American problems are the white man's fault even going so far as saying white man created Aids.

Like it or not, he is injecting racial hatred into this congregation and polarizing not uniting the country.

Maybe instead of blaming everything on white men, he should be encouraging black kids to do well in school, work hard, and get into a good college. Because, you know, that actually might help the situation down the line.

I agree, the first step that the government could do (if they want to) is to build better schools in the area. Perhaps they could invest in a Domino Theory that actually might work.

 

[Archbob]

I agree, the first step that the government could do (if they want to) is to build better schools in the area. Perhaps they could invest in a Domino Theory that actually might work.

The government has such programs, inner city teachers are paid just as much, if not more than suburban teachers. If teachers agree to teach in the inner city, they even get benefits like free down payment on a house. There's lots of incentives there, but face it, the kids in the inner city are hard to teach because most of them just aren't interested in learning. The government has tried to build better school and get better teachers in those areas, but in the end, its not anything else, but its the kids that are the problem. Sermon's like wright's are the center of the problem because it makes kids feel resentment and instead of trying to overcome, they simply go and join gangs after hearing stuff like that.


In most cities we also have programs where we buss alot of inner-city black kids to suburban schools so they get to go to a good school. But unfortunately they tend to drop out anyways. Its not the system that is failing them here, its the people that are failing.


The government can try all it wants, but if Pastors like Wright keep preaching these hateful sermons that blame everything on white men, then nothing that the government does will change anything.


Like I said, other minorities like Asians and Irish came over here with nothing, were starving and their kids attended the same schools. There was just as much racial hatred in the early 1900s towards us but we overcame. Why? Because we worked out, pulled outselves out and once white men saw that, they started to respect us and even praise us.

Just because you start out in a poor neighborhood doesn't mean you can't work hard and join the elite.

 

[Patroklos]

I agree, the first step that the government could do (if they want to) is to build better schools in the area. Perhaps they could invest in a Domino Theory that actually might work.

The first step is not the government. The second step is not the government. NONE OF THE STEPS INVOLVE THE GOVERNMENT AT ALL.

Way to prove that you are waiting for someone to come by and magically whisk you away into prosperity instead of doing it yourselves. But yeah, go ahead and keep doing that, it seems to have worked well so far...

 

[Elrohir]

Misquoting is a very good tactic, you guys have perfected it, I think I'll use it now.

Write out your responses properly, and I'll be happy to be respond. As a matter of principle, though, I refuse to respond to posts that mimic Skad's obnoxious posting style.

 

[Holycannoli]

Giving money to schools isn't the answer. I know firsthand. My brother is a state corrections officer and his wife is a 4th grade teacher in an inner city school.

You know what she says lately? She can't wait to leave that school because she's getting nowhere. She went in with high ideal hopes, "making a difference" and all that. Turns out most of her kids can barely read and write, none have any real families (you'd be surprised how many are being raised by grandmothers instead of parents), most have multiple relatives in prison, some barely show up for school at all, and neither the kids nor their families give a damn about what's going on in school or how well their kids are doing. Back-To-School night is a total washout; no parents ever show up.

What would throwing money at these schools accomplish, when neither the students nor their families give a crap about their education?

These kids go so far as to say they want to go to the prison my brother works at when they grow up! Yeah, their cousin is there, or their father just got out of there. "That's the prison I want to go to when I go". "Oh yeah I know that prison. It's nice!"

Don't you think that's a little messed up? Who's at fault here?

And if you think I'm not thinking critically when I see gangs slowly take over the neighborhoods my family used to live in years ago, you are just being ignorant by ignoring the real problems here. Gangs and poverty are the result of white people? The fact that young kids expect to go to prison is a white problem? The fact that you are ostracized for being successful is my fault as a white man?

Someone needs to open their eyes about what the real problem is here, and not try to lay blame on others all the time. You can go to school for free based purely on race. You will get a job before me because you are a minority (yes it's happened to me and I'm totally pissed). Thankfully though affirmative action is being heavily questioned now.

 

[eyrei]

Sure they are, but where are they? Did you mistreat any blacks? Did any of your friends take part in a lynching? I think not.

It is likely my granparents' generation of my family was involved at least in sitting idly by...

The society that mistreated them is long gone. As for the government, it is a democracy and the current governments were not elected by segregationists.

That society will not be gone until all of its members are dead, which they are not. It amazes me that people continue to insist that this is a thing of the past when the perpetrators were of the generation that currently runs our country.

I never said, I only pointed out that foreigners usually have the wrongest opinion. This is true for the US too.

But if you want to play that game, I've been to the US 6 times. How many have you come to South America?

I often do some additionally research after you tell me how wrong I am about something in South/Central America. I hope you will do the same here instead of being convinced by those who can shout the loudest and most often.

The racial paradigm in the US is complex, and while most of us at least wish it were a model of equality the reality is quite different, and is unlikely to change unless we start being honest about it.

 

[Gecko1]

The government has such programs, inner city teachers are paid just as much, if not more than suburban teachers. If teachers agree to teach in the inner city, they even get benefits like free down payment on a house. There's lots of incentives there, but face it, the kids in the inner city are hard to teach because most of them just aren't interested in learning. The government has tried to build better school and get better teachers in those areas, but in the end, its not anything else, but its the kids that are the problem. Sermon's like wright's are the center of the problem because it makes kids feel resentment and instead of trying to overcome, they simply go and join gangs after hearing stuff like that.


In most cities we also have programs where we buss alot of inner-city black kids to suburban schools so they get to go to a good school. But unfortunately they tend to drop out anyways. Its not the system that is failing them here, its the people that are failing.


The government can try all it wants, but if Pastors like Wright keep preaching these hateful sermons that blame everything on white men, then nothing that the government does will change anything.


Like I said, other minorities like Asians and Irish came over here with nothing, were starving and their kids attended the same schools. There was just as much racial hatred in the early 1900s towards us but we overcame. Why? Because we worked out, pulled outselves out and once white men saw that, they started to respect us and even praise us.

Just because you start out in a poor neighborhood doesn't mean you can't work hard and join the elite.

You have no idea how the cycle of poverty works do you?

No, you are dead wrong, because these schools stink there is no incentive to learn. You are also dead wrong on the racial hatred. Last time I checked Chinese and Irish didn' get lynched in massive numbers. Plus you came here wllingly.

 

[Gecko1]

Write out your responses properly, and I'll be happy to be respond. As a matter of principle, though, I refuse to respond to posts that mimic Skad's obnoxious posting style.

Good one less poster who refuses to live in reality. I learned something useful from Skad then.

 

[Patroklos]

You have no idea how the cycle of poverty works do you?

Apparently you don't, because the only example of that cycle being perpetual in this country is that of the black community. The only example of a community being uplifted out of that cycle by the government is...well...there isn't an example of that now is there? But you keep your fingers crossed and wish upon a star, I am sure that is the most effective thing to do despite all the opposite examples.

No, you are dead wrong, because these schools stink there is no incentive to learn.

Your mixing your messages G. The person who has no incentive to learn is me, because as you said when I have magic keys to the kingdom of suburbia and a white ID that gives me an all you can grab pass to the magic money vault, and of course as you said my rich grandparents will take care of me anyway (despite being dead, but hey this is your world...).

The people who do have in incentive to learn are the people who have no safety net and have no choice but to sink or swim.

Good one less poster who refuses to live in reality. I learned something useful from Skad then.

If I have misquoted you is because you have edited your posts after the fact. I copy and paste straight out of your posts.

You are also dead wrong on the racial hatred. Last time I checked Chinese and Irish didn' get lynched in massive numbers. Plus you came here wllingly.

You are also dead wrong on the racial hatred. Last time I checked Chinese and Irish didn' get lynched in massive numbers. Plus you came here wllingly.

What is massive, because the last time anyone checked at its height lynching was an out of the ordinary thing. In any case, when was the last time lynching was anything but an urban myth to the black community (spare us the anecdotes ), 50, 60 years ago? Lets see, the much more poor than the native black population (not to mention starving) Irishmen fleeing the famine came over starting in the 1850-1860ish? What was the status if the Irish 50 years later in say 1910? Still destitute poor and blaming all their problems on the evil nativists? Nope.

 

[Archbob]

You have no idea how the cycle of poverty works do you?

No, you are dead wrong, because these schools stink there is no incentive to learn. You are also dead wrong on the racial hatred. Last time I checked Chinese and Irish didn' get lynched in massive numbers. Plus you came here wllingly.

I know how the cycle of poverty works, I also know that those families who tend to stay in it are the ones who just sit there waiting for the government to bail them out, instead of actually working hard and trying to bail themselves out.

If the incentive of getting out of your current situation isn't enough to learn, then its the person's problem, not the government.


You still have failed to explain why the black kids who get bussed to good schools because of the government program still drop out despite being given the resources and the oppunrtunity to go to a good school. Its not the system at fault. They are refusing to work with the system even though the system is trying to help them. They want a free ride, not gonna happen.

And you are refusing to accept reality that the schools suck not because the government refuses to put money in them, its because of the people in those schools refuse to change.

You may have a point about lynchings in the south, but not in the north and yet, blacks still failed in the Northern states where discrimination was not that severe.

If blacks are forever going to lean on the crutch that its the government and not themselves who are at fault, then they will never go anywhere.

 

[Gecko1]

Apparently you don't, because the only example of that cycle being perpetual in this country is that of the black community. The only example of a community being uplifted out of that cycle by the government is...well...there isn't an example of that now is there? But you keep your fingers crossed and wish upon a star, I am sure that is the most effective thing to do despite all the opposite examples. Will you shut up already, you have no idea what you are talking about. I have already tried to explain the cycle to you and your hard headedness won't let you understand.



Your mixing your messages G. The person who has no incentive to learn is me, because as you said when I have magic keys to the kingdom of suburbia and a white ID that gives me an all you can grab pass to the magic money vault, and of course as you said my rich grandparents will take care of me anyway (despite being dead, but hey this is your world...).

The people who do have in incentive to learn are the people who have no safety net and have no choice but to sink or swim. when you have no money for college and your school has no books for you then you will see how hard it is to learn. Your grandparents got you into the middle class where you actually have a chance. If you weren't living in a good community with a good school then you wouldn't be posting here would you?



If I have misquoted you is because you have edited your posts after the fact. I copy and paste straight out of your posts. You like to post everything except what ties my arguments together. That makes a lot of sense doesn't it?

Really, start actually thinking before you regurgitate what crap you have already said five times.

 

[Trajan12]

And you are refusing to accept reality that the schools suck not because the government refuses to put money in them, its because of the people in those schools refuse to change.

Now now, FAL, you know better than anyone that change is just rhetoric.

 

[Gecko1]

I know how the cycle of poverty works, I also know that those families who tend to stay in it are the ones who just sit there waiting for the government to bail them out, instead of actually working hard and trying to bail themselves out. Really, when you live on less than 40,000 dollars a year with three children how do you expect to pay for college? Scholarships are far and inbetween. How many good jobs are in the inner city? Considering that no company wants to go there when there is a good chance of being robbed?

If the incentive of getting out of your current situation isn't enough to learn, then its the person's problem, not the government. Everyone wants to get out of their situation. They just reach a point when they finally realize it's impossible.


You still have failed to explain why the black kids who get bussed to good schools because of the government program still drop out despite being given the resources and the oppunrtunity to go to a good school. Its not the system at fault. They are refusing to work with the system even though the system is trying to help them. They want a free ride, not gonna happen. Can you study when there are gun shots in the middle of the night? When your parents who have been disenchanted about education don't push you onwards? When you have to work a job just in order to buy food for yourself?

And you are refusing to accept reality that the schools suck not because the government refuses to put money in them, its because of the people in those schools refuse to change. Really, you have no idea what these schools look like. Where do you live?

You may have a point about lynchings in the south, but not in the north and yet, blacks still failed in the Northern states where discrimination was not that severe. Discrimination was de facto in the north, don't think that everything north of the Mason-Dixon line was peachy keen.

If blacks are forever going to lean on the crutch that its the government and not themselves who are at fault, then they will never go anywhere. They'll never get anywhere with or without the government, there is no way out. The cycle is too powerful to be stopped. You guys just don't seem to get it.

Look at the post above.