Observed morality of god allowing the torture of children

[Homie]

You pose a good question there Sahkuhnder. One I have asked many pastors and speakers. I still think the 1st argument I posted in this thread holds up though. Where do we draw the line? Should God prevent all disaeses, mutations? What about people who are very ugly, that may seem small, but in todays world it might result in great depression, low self-esteem, hard to find a spouse etc...
What about the natural disaster. A baby might be caught in the rubble of an earthquake for days and be in excruciating pain from injuries caused by the quake and he will slowly die of thirst.

One could put up a great amount of these scenarios, what one is left with is this: "God, why isn't everything perfect and people happy?"
In heaven things will be perfect, but the earth is a fallen place because of Adam and Eve. However, compared to eternity life is but the blink of an eye, so it'll all be over soon anyway, just try to make as much good here while you are still around.

On a side note, even if God was not "good" in our eyes, it would still be in our best interest to follow His will, because He is all-powerful and may do with us as He chooses, He is accountable to no one. It is easy to be tough in this life-time and stand up to things you believe is wrong, even if that means you go to jail or get shot or tortured. Because this life is only for a time, eternity is forever.

 

[Homie]

EDIT: After Job proved himself, he was given all of it back by the Lord. Except the deaths of his family which would contradict the physics of our world. But I would bet because this was a "test" God may have spared the children in the afterlife. No way to know until we get there.

Job got many more sons and daughters afterwards. Not the same ones, but new ones of course. Back then, women and children were very much like property and legacy, you wanted children to bring about your legacy. and you wanted wives for love-making and to bear you children.

 

[classical_hero]

As I mentioned to MobBoss I could find some pictures of horribly deformed infants to illustrate what I mean by hopelessly disfigured. Children really are born sometimes so badly twisted and mis-shaped that it is amazing that they were even born alive. These infants with missing parts and vital systems underdeveloped have no chance of survival past a few years. During that time all they have is the wracking pains of their misery. Can you imagine a child that is in excruciating pain and can't sleep until it literally passes out from exhaustion only to awaken again screaming in misery and suffering?

Who is responsible? Who could have prevented this? What kind of sick and horrid mind could even conceive of inventing a system that allows for such pointless torture?

We already know the answer. And you want me to worship such a being?

You are making an assumption that just because it appears that someone has horribl suffering that no good can come out of it. I have seen in many cases where children have been born under extreme suffering and as a result of it people have shown great compassion towards them and as a result of this they are able to come through this suffering as a result of this generosity. Where you see a problem I see an opportunity for good to come out of it. When I see the children of Africa suffer through no fault of their own, it brings me to tears many times because they are suffering as a result of others actions. Without this there would not be any opportunity for us to show them what we can do for them. That is why there are many wonderful charities that go out of there way to help people in those terrible situations. I say that rather than complain about this, do something positive to help those who are suffering because your complaints will do them no good, whereas if you do something then good can come out of this.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Job got many more sons and daughters afterwards. Not the same ones, but new ones of course. Back then, women and children were very much like property and legacy, you wanted children to bring about your legacy. and you wanted wives for love-making and to bear you children.

As a footnote, Job got twice as many livestock, servants, twice as much wealth, et cetera, but the same amount of sons and daughters. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[MrCynical]

Job got many more sons and daughters afterwards. Not the same ones, but new ones of course. Back then, women and children were very much like property and legacy, you wanted children to bring about your legacy. and you wanted wives for love-making and to bear you children.

I'm sure that was a huge comfort for the sons and daughters "god" regarded as worthless enough to allow their destruction in a test. The "god" of the old testament could do with getting a lot of maturity, and more than a little moral education.

One could put up a great amount of these scenarios, what one is left with is this: "God, why isn't everything perfect and people happy?"
In heaven things will be perfect, but the earth is a fallen place because of Adam and Eve. However, compared to eternity life is but the blink of an eye, so it'll all be over soon anyway, just try to make as much good here while you are still around.

But once again we return to the setup of a God who either does not have the power to restore this "fallen place", or chooses not to, and so deliberately allows suffering, however finite, which is unnecessary, and in many cases where no good comes of it. As I've said, religions trot out the line that the human race "deserves" to be punished for the actions of Adam and Eve, despite the fact that no one should be responsible for the actions of another unless they deliberately took part in them. Once again, the only acceptable conclusion I can draw is that God is completely severed from the universe, unable to influence it for good or ill, and is only omnipotent in the afterlife. Otherwise his moality is truly appalling.

On a side note, even if God was not "good" in our eyes, it would still be in our best interest to follow His will, because He is all-powerful and may do with us as He chooses, He is accountable to no one. It is easy to be tough in this life-time and stand up to things you believe is wrong, even if that means you go to jail or get shot or tortured. Because this life is only for a time, eternity is forever.

True, but if God is genuinely evil then this is a sick universe. I don't think anyone would wish to believe that, since it would be far preferable to believe there is nothing at all beyond this universe.

You are making an assumption that just because it appears that someone has horribl suffering that no good can come out of it.

True, good can sometimes come of suffering, but that merely indicates that God has an approach where the ends justify the means. The teaching of most religions seems to condemn that approach.

In any case, there is meaningless suffering which benefits no one. I do not doubt that somewhere in history someone has been killed in a natural disaster and no one has remembered them, or noticed their loss. It may take some time for me to find an example, since it tends to be the deaths that no-one notices, remembers or records that are most certainly without meaning.

 

[eyrei]

"God, he stole the handle and
the train won't stop going
no way to slow down."

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

I cannot reconcile the conflicting ideas of an all loving and an all powerful God. If He were both, there would be no suffering or pain in the universe whatsoever. So, I choose to believe in the former, and that much of the suffering in the universe is a result of the evil forces that He has yet to subdue. But He will subdue them, as I believe that His victory is already predetermined, as it was on the day Christ was crucified. That day was the turning point, when the outcome was decided. However, there still lies a long battle ahead, and He wants us to be a part of that battle for Him.

 

[MobBoss]

My question lies more in why infant babies are punished. Is it for something they did? Is it for something someone else did? Either way seems very unfair to say the least.

First, I disagree that babies, in of themselves, are being punished. However, their very well could be situations where babies are living under a generational curse due to the sin of their fathers and grandfathers.

I should have been more clear. I mean only infant children born with chronic, unhealable, painful birth-defects that live for two or three years in terrible misery and suffering only to finally succumb to their painful deaths. I could find some pictures of horrid soon-to-be-fatal birth defects but I'll assume you know what I mean when I say totally unhealable and without hope.

I would humbly submit that God is truly the only hope FOR such unhealable people, not the cause. What if the cause of such birth defects is something man made being in the water table? At this time, we dont know all the answers on why some birth defects occur and some dont. But, we have been able to see trends in certain communities of such occurances where something has gotten into the water table.

I am not god and do not claim to be perfect. I could do more to help the world but choose not to. Just because I don't devote my life to helping others does not mean I am not a moral person in the general sense and do more good for the world than evil. You may judge me for my actions if you wish and I will make no objection. I need not be perfect to see the flaws in the actions of others (or in this case the inactions).

I find it odd that you would excuse your own behavior (or lack thereof) while blaming God for the actions of man.

If you gave me the ability to make all births healthy ones and make all infants survive healthy to age three I would make it so.

Tell me, would you make all the decisions for your kids down through their lives if you didnt agree with the ones they made? I dont think you are able to imagine a world where freedom of choice has been taken away.

To have that ability available to you and to not use it just seems evil.

Once again, I could do this with my kids....if I took away their freedom of choice I most certainly would be the one viewed as evil. However, if you take away a persons freedom of choice you take away thier ability to grow and mature. You would simply never learn from your mistakes because you would never be allowed to make any.

I see people praise god for healthy births, but never see the same people hold god equally responsible for the unhealthy ones.

I have seen people thank god for children regardless. Do you not think the parents of ******** kids sill love their kids? That in their own way, they are just as special as any kid born to any person? The same with kids that get sick and die. If one of my daughters, god forbid, got sick and died, I would still thank god for the time I was allowed to have them in my life and how special they were/are.

How are birth defects only the actions of man?

There have been many instances where toxic chemicals have infiltrated a water supply and resulted in birth defects. Is that not the actions/sin of man?

I see terrible people have healthy children and good law-abiding tax-paying upright christians have birth-defects. I don't see god giving deformed children only to bad people.

Because, whether you believe it or not, a deformed child can still be a blessing to a family irregardless of the childs deformity.

Who does allow very painful and soon to be fatal birth defects then? Satan? If god is all-powerful it seems to me that he can stop them and so therefore he does allow it to happen by his direct inaction. For example if you are holding a fire extinguisher while your buddy burns alive and dies you are in large part responsible for his death occurring. I hold god to the same standard.

Unfortunately, you do not have the brain power to judge God. You do not adequately understand his plans, motives or reasons. Holding God to some human standard will only fail - he isnt human.

I guess this sums up to punish the guilty, us adult sinners, and not the innocent infant children who are too young to have sinned.

Once again, if some evil corporate types save cash by dumping some poison into the water table and it results in birth defects, why is that Gods fault? Answer: It isnt.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

First, I disagree that babies, in of themselves, are being punished. However, their very well could be situations where babies are living under a generational curse due to the sin of their fathers and grandfathers.

Don't you read your bible?

Ezekiel 18:20 "20 The soul who sins, he shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him."

Stop pulling stuff out of your ass in a desperate attempt to cover it.

I would humbly submit that God is truly the only hope FOR such unhealable people, not the cause. What if the cause of such birth defects is something man made being in the water table? At this time, we dont know all the answers on why some birth defects occur and some dont. But, we have been able to see trends in certain communities of such occurances where something has gotten into the water table.

Again, if you believe in both an all powerful and an all loving God, then yes He is the direct cause of their suffering, because He, in all His supposed infinite love and power, should just snap His fingers and end their suffering. He doesn't. This means He's either not all loving or all powerful. I choose to believe he's all loving but not all powerful.

[/QUOTE]I find it odd that you would excuse your own behavior (or lack thereof) while blaming God for the actions of man.[/QUOTE]

Again, if God really is as you say, He could end absolutely every problem in the universe in five minutes. But He doesn't.

Question: don't you think that, since He has way more power, God should be held to a higher standard than us pitiful humans?

Tell me, would you make all the decisions for your kids down through their lives if you didnt agree with the ones they made? I dont think you are able to imagine a world where freedom of choice has been taken away.

Stop making the comparison between God and someone's parent. God has a lot more power to influence the world than a parent does his or her child. The two are not comparable.

Once again, I could do this with my kids....if I took away their freedom of choice I most certainly would be the one viewed as evil. However, if you take away a persons freedom of choice you take away thier ability to grow and mature. You would simply never learn from your mistakes because you would never be allowed to make any.

But how many deaths does it take for God to be satisfied that we are mature? A billion more, on top of the countless billions we've already lost? This kind of theology just lends more credance to the "kid-with-a-magnifying glass" theory. Once again, it's not possible to logically and rationally have both an all loving and an all powerful God.

Unfortunately, you do not have the brain power to judge God. You do not adequately understand his plans, motives or reasons. Holding God to some human standard will only fail - he isnt human.

No, but because we were made in God's image, His logic is not beyond our comprehension. If God really did create us to be His children, then it's not logical for us to be unable to comprehend God's plans, motives, or reasons, as they should simply be a better version of ours.

Once again, if some evil corporate types save cash by dumping some poison into the water table and it results in birth defects, why is that Gods fault? Answer: It isnt.

No, but if God truly were both all loving and all powerful, he could and would just whisk away all those poins dumped into the water in an instant. But he doesn't, so that means he either is all loving and not all powerful, or the kid with the magnifying glass. You can believe in whichever you choose; I do the former.

Here's a pop question for you: do you believe that babies that die while in the process of birth, are aborted, or die shortly after birth, go to hell? These babies never accepted Christ as their personal saviour, the only supposed prerequisite to salvation, so do you believe that God would condemn them?

 

[Sidhe]

Whilst I agree with most of this I don't see how God couldn't be all powerfull but want for mankind to grow at the same time, the whole reason God set up the Garden of Eden scenario for a fall, I.e deliberately wanted mankind to prosper and to go from perfection to mortality was so that we could grow, in the Garden of Eden life is sterile unfullfilling and dead, no pain no death no sorrow, just perfect, this is a non evolutionary environment, as I said before God is incapable of lying he cannot do it, neither can he commit evil, he is bound by his own laws. So when he says man has free will and can grow the only Omni power this rids God of, if indeed he ever had it, which I doubt is omniscience, you can't give man free will and then stroll round controlling everyones lives any more than you can know all possible futures and have free will,you can't control who lives and dies, because this is just the Garden of Eden all over again, Growth = suffering, mistakes and accidents = learning, to remove it voids free will and voids Gods promise, something he cannot do.

I suggest you read Job if after that you can still make the claim that God is limited in what he can do then I would be surprised.

Death is a part of life and to make only those who deserve to die, die teaches no one nothing. Even the suffering it brings brings wisdom and effort to prevent this happening, a will to do good, can you not see that by letting a child die a good man can do miracles with science and prevent it from happening, the scope of learning increases by the unpredictability or free will of man. To me it's fairly obvious but I'm not sure how I could make it clearer than it is made in the BIble so I won't even try. With evil comes counterpoint, with yin comes yang with more good than evil comes imbalance and an imperfect lesson, and movement towards more evil.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

To reiterate my position:

I think that, whether we see it or not, good can come out of any suffereing (even that of a short-lived child). God is limited in His power; He is able to stop all our suffering but not to then at the same time give us the benefits of that suffering. He loves us and therefore only allows us to suffer because it is ultimately for the best.

 

[King Flevance]

the whole reason God set up the Garden of Eden scenario for a fall, I.e deliberately wanted mankind to prosper and to go from perfection to mortality was so that we could grow, in the Garden of Eden life is sterile unfullfilling and dead, no pain no death no sorrow, just perfect, this is a non evolutionary environment, as I said before God is incapable of lying he cannot do it, neither can he commit evil, he is bound by his own laws.

Snipped for not taking up space.

Or he created the world with the Garden of Eden, knowing what the result would be. However, he chose to do it anyways, because he believed in mankinds ability to overcome it. In a way you did in fact hit this though. Just in a different way I think.

 

[Sidhe]

Both Eran and the next post have good points, but even with omnipotence either way, his knowledge and his will to lead us to learn is the reasoning. Without choice that denys a direct hand we have nothing as the bible shows clearly, he cannot give us free will on one hand and then deny it on another that would be a lie, if he did he would have lied which he cannot do, thus free will must be unbound, or suffer the consequences of a lack of it.

Yeah I think we both know of the reasoning behind Eden King Flevance it's just as always it's open to intepretation. It was a simple creation and a beginning to make the end of the tennant of Genesis in the early chapters a reality, to give us a first point, what annoys me is people focus on the sin, without the knowledge that it was not God's plan to chastise for it but to lead to growth, a lesson not an admonishment, but as always religion focuses on punishment not the real reasoning, and it is again a childlike interpretation based on a misunderstanding. It makes you weep that a punishment is taken as a sin so great we can never be free of it because to me this is not the method behind the wisdom, it is just a will by man to delude fools into following: to make us out as somehow tainted when in fact we have the breath of life and a will to go were we will. Again a pointless misintepritation and again another lesson we should certainly have learnt.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Observed morality of god allowing the torture of children

This should clue us in to the fact that we what we consider to be morality is not the same as what god considers it to be. 'Morality' is a joke concept when it comes to god anyway. It implies that there are things which happen out of gods control. For all intents and purposes, all that happens fits within gods 'morality', obviously.

 

[El_Machinae]

And as His child, I feel honour-bound to do whatever I want, since it's all His will!

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

And as His child, I feel honour-bound to do whatever I want, since it's all His will!

Well, it's His will for you to choose to do what He wants you to do. Ideally, you will do His will because it coincides with His, which it will when one has a true understanding of morality.

But a high price has been paid for our free will - from Satan's expulsion from heaven to Christ's sacrifice. We had better use it.

 

[MobBoss]

Don't you read your bible?

Ezekiel 18:20 "20 The soul who sins, he shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him."

Stop pulling stuff out of your ass in a desperate attempt to cover it.

Before you accuse me of pulling stuff out of my ass, perhaps you should read your own bible:

Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Next time, instead of being simply insulting lets try to discuss the issue and the biblical proofs behind what is stated eh?

Question: don't you think that, since He has way more power, God should be held to a higher standard than us pitiful humans?

Not at all. He is above our "human" standards and does things for his own reasons which we plainly dont have the brain wattage to comprehend.

Stop making the comparison between God and someone's parent. God has a lot more power to influence the world than a parent does his or her child. The two are not comparable.

The two are extremely comparable. Are we not referred to as his children repeatedly in the bible? Also, from your statement I can tell you are most likely not a parent. A parents influence on their child is paramount to that childs development and their control over them, especially early, is TOTAL.

But how many deaths does it take for God to be satisfied that we are mature? A billion more, on top of the countless billions we've already lost? This kind of theology just lends more credance to the "kid-with-a-magnifying glass" theory. Once again, it's not possible to logically and rationally have both an all loving and an all powerful God.

Once again, it is mans' hands holding the magnifying glass...not Gods.

No, but because we were made in God's image, His logic is not beyond our comprehension.

I disagree and to state such a belief is nothing more than pure hubris/pride. I can make an image of myself with enough spam, but it will hardly be infused with my logic.

If God really did create us to be His children, then it's not logical for us to be unable to comprehend God's plans, motives, or reasons, as they should simply be a better version of ours.

Do young children understand the logic or motives of their parents? Nope. We do not have either the maturity or development to understand his logic.

No, but if God truly were both all loving and all powerful, he could and would just whisk away all those poins dumped into the water in an instant. But he doesn't, so that means he either is all loving and not all powerful, or the kid with the magnifying glass. You can believe in whichever you choose; I do the former.

Shrug. You just shift all the blame of humanity and its sin onto God. Adam blame shifted first and it continues to be an issue with man to this very day.

Here's a pop question for you: do you believe that babies that die while in the process of birth, are aborted, or die shortly after birth, go to hell? These babies never accepted Christ as their personal saviour, the only supposed prerequisite to salvation, so do you believe that God would condemn them?

I believe as they have never reached the age of accountability that they die innocent and dont go to hell. They never had a choice in the matter.