OCC Always War

[cripp7]

@cripp
What's the point in building samurai? The extra drill is nice, but the XP upgrade limit not so much. Now I am building commando+march infantry which I am using for a raid to get a holy city down and generally wreak some havoc. Is it overflow money for mass upgrade to mechs, and breakout with lots of 10XP mechs (from upgrade or draft)? Is a 10xp mech that much better than a 20xp infantry a hundred turns earlier?
2) re draft: I guess that's the only way to build >1 units per turn, but the draft costs 3 pop for a mech inf right? at sizes > 30, that's quite a task to regrow quickly, so I guess you go down in size quite a lot? can you still keep up building 1 a turn in that case?

1) Samurais start with DrillI+2 1st strike, along with W3 that's 5 1st strikes which can hold up to just about anything. Yes the overflow is for the upgrades, having 4-5 GG units in the pass and having the rest settled you can have 25-30XP mechs/tanks coming out (running vassalage/theo +4XP) Though I haven't tried the infantry on Deity.

2) once you get down below 20 it starts going to 2 turns, running all farms/watermills it'll grow back fast. But having 30 or so samurais to upgrade helps, I usually build tanks and draft mechs. I'll play one doing Lincoln or Cyrus and post a save.

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

When is too soon to break out? I restarted and tried breaking out with a stack of GG Units (200+XP) and cavalry, got just a bit into it and my stack ended up getting decimated, though the AI was not advanced or strong enough to take the pass. Looks like I'll be restarting again

 

[mystyfly]

@OP: Thanks for the game, I finally had a go. Played with lincoln. I don't see why anyone would want to play an OCC with a financial leader.

Scored a conquest victory at 1250AD but that game is not really comparable, I'll play again later, I had huge luck (got a few techs from huts, every wonder I wanted, lots of GMs) and had a huge techlead after AL. Got bio from lib 40BC... that brings up another point, I played on marathon Wanted to give it a try (found it so boring to play a game this slowly but with only 1 city...) and it just meant that I could use my 5 ultra-infantries with commando and morale to chew through the AIs like butter. Went into the offense around 800AD IIRC.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Wow, Lib @ 40BC. What difficulty was this on?

 

[Kid R]

Re. The original leader, level, speed. It was designed to be hard

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

Spoiler :

Despite not managing the XP-gathering mini-game as well as I could have, at Robotics there were still 10x 300-450 XP warlords who could go out as the desired 6-move unbeatable stack. The AIs were still fielding cavalry, cannon and had just got infantry, but in any case they really have no idea how to handle a stack approaching cities from 4-6 tiles away. I guess not knowing which city will be attacked they seem to hedge their bets and just leave their units roaming about! This is great because cities generally then don't have many defenders, and the 10 warlords could usually clear out one city per turn. Or sometimes 2 turns killing a few easy infantry or cavalry on the way to a convenient resting hill.

Eliminating the most advanced AI, Boudica, was easy before Kyoto fell, and I think the more ******** AIs could have been taken down after that before they reached a similar tech level. So in summary 16 super-units (2 stacks of 8, one going each way) would at least have a shot at clearing the whole map, and I believe with better XP management a force like that is achievable.

Q for you, Kid...I've tried this strategy, and ran into the problem of not generating enough GGs. How do you manage to generate 16 of them? Do you leave these units only in the pass?

 

[Kid R]

Q for you, Kid...I've tried this strategy, and ran into the problem of not generating enough GGs. How do you manage to generate 16 of them? Do you leave these units only in the pass?

Yes, just hold the pass and the GGs will come from the AIs suiciding units. Very important is the great wall though (+100% GG inside our culture) *and* for our culture to extend out to the hill in good time so all the fights get the +100%. A few early wonders seems to do that quite nicely.

The two times I played it through to robotics I got 17 GGs both times, the 17th coming just around that time. I think you can reasonably expect to lose 1 of them to unlucky combat dice rolls through the game, and the last 3 or 4 will not really have time to level up very far.

So the plan is 2 stacks of 8 GG units. Each containing 4 units with all useful promos, 1 unit with nearly all plus medic 3, and 3 units with lower XPs, around say 150, 75, 25, where 25 is what you get from just the GG. I think this'll work because I tried worldbuildering 16 such units into the failed game I described before, in place of the ones I actually had ready. The 16 were enough to clear the map (plus a little help finishing off the last 2 AIs from 30-odd raw mechs that got slow-built one per turn during the first 4 wars).

That worldbuildered save is attached - enjoy!

I was a bit overgenerous with XP on the 3 weak units in each stack - I gave them 200, 200, 25. But on the other hand I also gave every unit Morale, which was unnecessary (lots of AI rail around then) and would have saved 36 XP each unit . Promotions get pretty expensive at level 21 even for charismatic Hannibal!

View attachment breakout.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

Yes, just hold the pass and the GGs will come from the AIs suiciding units. Very important is the great wall though (+100% GG inside our culture) *and* for our culture to extend out to the hill in good time so all the fights get the +100%. A few early wonders seems to do that quite nicely.

The two times I played it through to robotics I got 17 GGs both times, the 17th coming just around that time. I think you can reasonably expect to lose 1 of them to unlucky combat dice rolls through the game, and the last 3 or 4 will not really have time to level up very far.

So the plan is 2 stacks of 8 GG units. Each containing 4 units with all useful promos, 1 unit with nearly all plus medic 3, and 3 units with lower XPs, around say 150, 75, 25, where 25 is what you get from just the GG. I think this'll work because I tried worldbuildering 16 such units into the failed game I described before, in place of the ones I actually had ready. The 16 were enough to clear the map (plus a little help finishing off the last 2 AIs from 30-odd raw mechs that got slow-built one per turn during the first 4 wars).

That worldbuildered save is attached - enjoy!

I was a bit overgenerous with XP on the 3 weak units in each stack - I gave them 200, 200, 25. But on the other hand I also gave every unit Morale, which was unnecessary (lots of AI rail around then) and would have saved 36 XP each unit . Promotions get pretty expensive at level 21 even for charismatic Hannibal!

View attachment 260029

In mine, I settled only two GGs. I built WP and Pentagon to make up for the lack of settled GGs. I think the mistake I made was that I over-promoted too few GGs and when those (5) died (as infantrymen, BTW, to much weaker units) outside of the pass, I was devastated. Ok, well, not really, but I am going to restart

 

[mystyfly]

I played on deity ofc. AI teching is pathetic enough anyway (with these personalities). As a reference, I got 14 GGs until 1250AD. You shouldn't only defend but also attack when having an advantage with base strenght (like maces or rifles). I used all my 5 units alone (no stacks). For my next attempt I'll only use 2 axes and 2 archers, archers for early defence (drill!), axes get drill after becoming samurais plus CR. After drill, combat/woodsman promotions, combat is great when you're having greater base strenght, and woodsman increases healing and first strikes. Medic is not as important a the units shouldn't get injured with the first strikes.

Think I settled 8 GGs, pentagon is far too expensive, inf is much better. I was running rep/buero/caste/pac all game. Built NE, ox, nat parc, HE and IW. 3 religions in cap means a lot of happiness so no need for globe. Cap was size 35, needed culture up to 80% for WW though.

 

[Calouste]

I was wondering whether IW is worth it over Globe. You're already running +160% production (Forge, Factory, Shaleplant, Buro bonus), +260% for units, so the +50% you get for IW (no coal) is not as much as it seems, and you save quite a few hammers early on from not having to build happiness buildings. IW Engineer slots look rather useful though.

 

[mystyfly]

With all the happiness resources and buildings you should be able to please lots of citizens. Then there's the culture slider, with mostly specs the slider is not important anyway.

Whether the production bonus is necessary, well on epic or especially marathon, it is. Only downside is that you don't get the coal as you NEED the parc, so IW is only +50%. The slots were no factor for me as I quite like AWAT in OCC as settled GPs are very strong. I didn't have many base hammers as I was trying to run max specs.


Someone said something about the leader being an "intended additional difficulty" or so. Well I think one of the most precious skills in civ is to adapt. Use the map to your advantage, the opponents, and mostly, your traits, starting techs and UU/UB. If you're using a leader that gives you 1 trait that slightly helps with warring and 1 completely useless trait, together with a lategame UB while you're having a good UU, this is kinda stupid as you can't "adapt" and run a successful CE in OCC. That's my reason to change the leader anyway as I like to leverage my advantages. Regardless of leader/civ, I really like the scenario and enjoyed the game a lot

 

[cripp7]

2 thing
a) I still can't get the Oracle>CS sling down, I usually hit the 2 huts outside the pass first. 1 to the NW and the second to the SE of the pass. Then build a scout for the ones inside, I've saved them before and let the border pop the one to the NE and waited on the others. Popped Astro one time!

b) I also did a Suleiman/Jap game (Phi/Imp) with the GW/Imp that 200%GG plus every GG getting Leadership. But for some reason this game kept getting run over, had 5 GG samurais with all Dr4/W3/C4-6 etc 200+XP but just couldn't hold.

It's nice to try the custom game and mix/match your player, I'm going to try an experiment using WB to try GG LBs, or xbow, and janeseries which are awsome muskets. Thought abot adding a god-given GG machine gun at the pass.

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

2 thing
b) I also did a Suleiman/Jap game (Phi/Imp) with the GW/Imp that 200%GG plus every GG getting Leadership. But for some reason this game kept getting run over, had 5 GG samurais with all Dr4/W3/C4-6 etc 200+XP but just couldn't hold.

Really?

In my current attempt (#3), I have undertaken a strategy called "The Seven Samurai." I have seven NON-GG (I'm settling all my GGs) samurai guarding the pass. Only two ever really see action, and they are all fully drill promoted so siege means nothing. One is an (almost) super-medic with woodsman 3 and medic 2, so they're never injured over the span of a turn. The AI is still coming at me (in 1500s) with axes and swords as well as chariots, and can't make any headway. Now, I'm starting to roll out infantry. The end is near for the AI. I think this might be the way to go.

Re: the CS slingshot from oracle, I popped mining, masonry and bronze working from huts. manually researched mathematics and code of laws, while prebuilding oracle to one turn left. As soon as CoL was finished, bang! It's a nifty trick, thanks for all the advice.

 

[Calouste]

Really?

In my current attempt (#3), I have undertaken a strategy called "The Seven Samurai." I have seven NON-GG (I'm settling all my GGs) samurai guarding the pass. Only two ever really see action, and they are all fully drill promoted so siege means nothing. One is an (almost) super-medic with woodsman 3 and medic 2, so they're never injured over the span of a turn. The AI is still coming at me (in 1500s) with axes and swords as well as chariots, and can't make any headway. Now, I'm starting to roll out infantry. The end is near for the AI. I think this might be the way to go.

Re: the CS slingshot from oracle, I popped mining, masonry and bronze working from huts. manually researched mathematics and code of laws, while prebuilding oracle to one turn left. As soon as CoL was finished, bang! It's a nifty trick, thanks for all the advice.

Which level do you play on? I'm trying deity and in one game Shaka came at me with Cuirassiers in about 1050. Samurai don't hold up against those. I think my current try is in the 1500s, and their are airships around and I have spotted the first Infantry.

@cripp7:
I was thinking about a variant with a god-given Mech Inf at the pass, although with the restriction that that is the only unit allowed there. Should be able to get that above 2000XP before you break out.

 

[mystyfly]

I never had any problems guarding the pass. I find it most important to use axes as well as archers. With decent teching there should be no problem keeping at least pairity with AI units. God-given Mech Inf is overkill.

Early build order is very important. It's vital to get a second worker out to speed up chopping and improving while growing to max size. Your warrior should go hunting workers and get to woodsman 2 to try and get a free worker. Mysticism and SH are important to me, mostly for the GPPs, since it's so cheap with stone. Then GW > mids. A woodsman 3 + combat warrior can hold out until axes are coming in.

RE promotions, keep in mind that also guerilla helps defence as the pass is on a forested hill. Still, the drill line is by far the most important.

 

[Agramon]

I've been learning a lot from obsoletes industrial series. So basically aimed at WE/SSE. While holding the pass. Normally play on Monarch, so I did in this challenge. This feels a bit easier though. Plenty resources, GG farm, AI techs like a snail. Took bio from Lib. Breaking out with cannons and C5D1 MG (upgraded Samurai). Outdated defenders make up my mop up crew. Facing LBs and some grens. Almost all GG settled for REP/CASTE/MERK. Fully farmed only 4 forest left.

 

[Agramon]

God given defenders are definitely overkill.

 

[mystyfly]

That's where I took the idea with awat and settled GPs from. Keeps production alive while working but farms and specs.

 

[Gwynnja]

This is a fun one! I was initially hesitant cause I'm not a big fan of unrestricted leaders, but I'm glad I did. Thanks, cripp7.

Spoiler :

Leveled down to emperor/marathon (I'm a wuss, I know.) Resisting the urge to reroll every time a GG dies. I have one samurai with every promotion available pre-pinch/commando/blitz; ATM he has 718/589 exp. AI isn't going to be able to touch him without rifles. Teching is weird w/o trades. I'm about to take astro with lib ~900 AD. Trying to decide if I want to keep turtled until Mech Inf or take cannons with my samurai army. We'll see. Question Re: floodplains... I didn't build cottages mostly because I don't think I'd be able to destroy them for state property. They have waterwheels, but pre- Replaceable parts/SP/Levees, they kind of suck and I'm just whipping them if I can find something that I can't build in a turn or two. What has everyone else done with them?

 

[Agramon]

whipping in OCC?

Concerning floodplains, I thought farming is the best option? You still get +1 food even though it causes health problems, or am I mistaken.