OCC Always War

Following in the OCCC tradition, I thought I'd resurrect this OCC challenge.


Here's the start
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0000-6.jpg

Spoiler settings :
attachment.php

Here's the original save and the WB save allowing you to play any level


edit: I accidentally put the wrong start WB save, that was one I was playing around with. Also fixed the MaxTurns=0

Would it be outre' to change the player leader to Lincoln?

:mischief:
 
I will upload a no-events, no-huts version tonight for better comparisons. I propose that people specify:

date of oracle (+which tech), pyramids, liberalism, biology, rifling, assembly line
city size, max prod/bpt, #units, #GGs (settled+attached) at 1AD, 1000AD, 1500AD

Does that make sense?

What is the vote on espionage? I don't like it as it is mainly annoying to repair improvements all the time, but I guess disabling it will make the game slightly easier (also by not getting early GSpy that is not so useful)

I'd go without espionage. If you disable forges burning down through events, I'd disabled forges burning down through espionage as well.
 
Lincoln, you get charismatic and Philosophical. More GP and More GG. It's a win win!

You don't get more GG, you just get quicker promotions with Charismatic. Cyrus gives you more GG and quicker promotions, although not as many other GP.
 
Hmmm I'll reload before the breakout and plan a new try at commando infantry. These should eat pretty much whatever the computer has at that point, assuming it's not going to outrun me anytime soon.

I've been attaching all my GG's now, leading to around 10-15 superunits by the time I got rifling (+/-- 1000 AD? (from memory)). I could also have settled all these, getting units out of the gate with say 30XP. = 6 promos. That means that we could get C4+commando+march units out of the door. Wouldn't it make sense to use say 50 or 100 of these rather than 6 super-super units? Did anyone try?

Probably, the first 2-4 GG's should be attached anyway to hold the pass initially, but the rest can be settled. Or would we lose the pass too easily?

Also, I find that I need to rotate the GG's that are "done trainig" (120-something XP) away from the pass to allow the GG recruits to soak up some XP, but that is a very dicey affair as I think it is difficult to judge how much damage an AI stack will do. I ended up reloading a couple times to put the 4-star generals back in position, but that doesn't feel right...

Depends on when you plan to do the big break out (haven't got to that point yet... ). If it is with Mechs, they come with march for free so you only need 5 promos, or 9 settled GGs.
 
(and by that time you have the pentagon as well, and might as weel swith to theo, so you get 3+2+3=8 starting XP)
 
One tactic to spread the experience a bit more among your GG is to look after an AI assault to see what is left in the square opposite the hill. Quite often it is just a few damaged Horse Archers that were lucky enough to withdraw. That's 2XP at >99.9% to help the inexperienced guys. Don't attack the last unit in that tile of course.
 
How can I pick another civ and leader? If I change it in the WB save its just random afterwards.
 
@calouste once you have a unit with morale, it is very good at picking off the last one :-)

OK, attached is the save with nu huts/events/espionage/vassals. I had to manually delete all the huts so I hope I didn't miss one. I decided to stick with the current leader as otherwise it would just be another debate (eg to pick two out of phi / cha / imp / spi). I accidentally saved after settling and moving the warrior towards the pass, but I guess that's what anybody would do anyway...
 

Attachments

OK I've played till 10AD:

1925BC Oracle -> CoL
1350 Pyramids
470 CS

I went literature -> CS -> MC -> Drama -< Machinery -> Education, planning to take bio from lib and then on to rifling - assembly line. I decided to get the Paya to get OR so I can avoid mono and later theology, not convinced that it is the best thing to do. Got all useful wonders except the ToA.

10AD:
City size: 20, Running Rep, Buro, CS, OR
Max bpt (without starvation) 262, 3 turns from education
Max hammers: 31 raw, 93 for wonder
5 GGs, 1 settled, 4 great samurai (exp ~160, 120, 60, 30)
3 GS (2 settled, 1 bulb edu), 1 GP (settled)
Spoiler :

occ10ad.jpg



Edit: to 1000 AD

Liberalism 775AD -> Biology, after that towards rifling (4 turns away)
City size 32, same civics
Max beakers: 766
Max hammers 39 (raw)
total 11 GG (7 settled), 3/3/1 GS/GP/GE. I think I bulbed one on sci meth

Plan is to grow the city to size 38 while researching comm, AL, and towards mech inf, replace all farms with SP watermills, and create an army!
 
I'd go to AL first while still building samurais, try going straight to mechs. Also grenadiers work well in the pass getting CG3, Hill3, with a fort and all the 1st strikes. Just make sure to have all the Drill4 line. Once you get to mechs, switch to Nationhood and draft away. You'll have enough :food: to regrow.
 
Got AL, communism and converted all farms to watermills. Switched to theo after the pentagon, building 1 march/commando inf a turn with around 100 overflow. Going to electricity (coins on mills) and on to mech inf. Sent out around 20 inf with my leaders to go raze a nearby shrine that has >50% of the population. Some die but they do a pretty good job.

@cripp
What's the point in building samurai? The extra drill is nice, but the XP upgrade limit not so much. Now I am building commando+march infantry which I am using for a raid to get a holy city down and generally wreak some havoc. Is it overflow money for mass upgrade to mechs, and breakout with lots of 10XP mechs (from upgrade or draft)? Is a 10xp mech that much better than a 20xp infantry a hundred turns earlier?
2) re draft: I guess that's the only way to build >1 units per turn, but the draft costs 3 pop for a mech inf right? at sizes > 30, that's quite a task to regrow quickly, so I guess you go down in size quite a lot? can you still keep up building 1 a turn in that case?

I tried using the music GArt for a GAge to go into pacifism for 10 turns on the stretch to bio (where there's not much useful to build). I guess you could also use that for the big civic+religion switch, maybe delay things so CS, pyramids and OR come together the 10 turn window? I hate spending turns in anarchy...

-- Wouter
 
Ok, here's the WB saves with Lincoln and Cyrus. I'm going to try both to see how they work!

Tried this last nite as Hannibal (on Noble). I'm currently at 1500AD The AI has NEVER killed one of my units, but I can't see how I'm going to break out. Have two GG units in the pass (now grenadiers) and about 20 other units there, almost all of them fully drill promoted. I was first to Communism, Fascism, and Physics. I have Assebly line but for some reason can't build infantry. Is that a bug?

Also, Re: the issue of enough money for upgrades, I built wealth. with all the hammers, it came to nearly 200 per turn.
 
Tried this last nite as Hannibal (on Noble). I'm currently at 1500AD The AI has NEVER killed one of my units, but I can't see how I'm going to break out. Have two GG units in the pass (now grenadiers) and about 20 other units there, almost all of them fully drill promoted. I was first to Communism, Fascism, and Physics. I have Assebly line but for some reason can't build infantry. Is that a bug?

Also, Re: the issue of enough money for upgrades, I built wealth. with all the hammers, it came to nearly 200 per turn.
Not a bug. You need Rifling as well as Assembly Line to build Infantry.
 
Stupid question, but do you have rifling (prereq for building inf)

I find that building a unit a turn plus getting cash is a very good way of getting money while still building a unit per turn.

The crux to this game is getting out. You have 3 advantages vis-a-vis the AI (plus Actual Intelligence)
1) the pass (ie your defense is easy, theirs isn't)
2) tech. They are bigger but waste all their money on troops. The real challenge would have been putting a normal mansa or inca in the bottom left corner with enough room. You should be able to have units one or two levels more advanced.
3) experience. If you settle your GG's, you can easily get 25XP units out of the gate. Combined with CHA, that means level 6 or 7, eg C4+march+commando

I have yet to succeed, but I have just sent out my first raiding party that is having some success. And my investment is 'only' 20 turns worth of production, while teching towards mech inf...

I really like the watermills on all non-special tiles (and the elephant and beaver), giving 4f3h4c each. This generates a lot of hammers in total while still generating enough food to stay at size 38 (=18 specialists).
 
Here are some major helpers in beating the deity save (NOT using the WB save to start):

Spoiler :

Here is how to get mining, masonry, BW, and 1 other tech (Ive gotten either IW, math, MC or aesthetics) from the first 4 huts:
Spoiler :

If you take the goody hut NE of the city tile with your starting warrior you get mining, if you move him then south to the next hut you get masonry and if you move him afterwards to the goody hut at the top of the screen (NW of the elephant) you get bronzeworking. You have to follow this order though, else the random numbers won´t match correctly.

The 4th hut s/b popped on turn 35. I've gotten either math, aesthetics, IW, or MC from this one.


Here's turinturambar's walkthrough of the first 81 turns to get CS from Oracle:
Spoiler :

Regarding fast teching: Here is my turn by turn playthrough for the initial oracle slingshot. I´d be curious if you find something to improve:

turn0: research hunting, build worker, move warrior to goody hut, work rice.

turn2: Pop goody hut for mining, move warrior to second goody hut

turn 7: Pop goody hut for masonry, move warrior to the north hut

turn 10: hunting finished, research agriculture


turn 11: buddhism founded in a distant land

turn 13: worker finished, start another worker, start improving deer

turn 14: pop bronce working, warrior goes south to hunt scouts

turn 19: deer improved, move worker to the corn, start chopping the forest

turn 21: meet ghenghis' scout

turn 22: meet shaka, focus espionage only on him.

turn 25: worker finished, start another worker, so he gets the hammers from chopping.

turn 26: agriculture finished, both workers improve the corn, switch production from worker to great wall, so that the city can grow, research pottery

turn 27: meet hammurabi

turn 28: war chariot quest: yeah very likely that I will do that as it requires you to stay in the classical age

turn 29: corn improved

turn 31: both workers start chopping the gold mine.

turn 32: city grows to size 2, switch production back to worker

turn 33: worker finished, goes to chop the copper hill

turn 35: warrior kills hammurabis scout

turn 36: gold mine finished, wheat is the next tile to get improved

turn 37: city grows to size 3, meet tokugawa

turn 39: pottery in, change production to granary, research writing

turn 42: change deer tile to unimproved silver so that the city grows after granary is finished.

turn 43: granary finished, wheat improved, work all 3 improved high food tiles. workers improve gems next.

turn 44: city grows to size 4

turn 45: copper improved, worker joins the others to improve the gems.

turn 47: city grows to size 5

turn 48: GW finished, start axemen, move warrior to the top to pop the last hut for a chance on mathematics once writing is in.

turn 49: gems improved, switch production from copper to gems, workers start chopping rice.

turn 50: city grows to size 6

turn 51: writing in, start mathematics

turn 52: axeman finishes, start library, stonehenge built in a distant land, rice chopped, move workers to silver to chop wood, pop hut, gold.

turn 53: city grows to size 7

turn 56: city grows to size 8, library finished, assign two scientist specialists which were working unimproved land. warrior reaches city and takes over garrison duty, axeman goes archer hunting.

turn 57: rice improved, switch copper tile to rice, workers start improving the ivory.

turn 59: axeman wins against a quecha

turn 60: city grows to size 9

turn 61: meet montezuma, axeman finished, start pyramids, hinduism founded, workers improve the fur, work the improved ivory tile instead of copper.

turn 63: city grows to size 10, fur improved, gets worked, workers improve silver.

turn 65: mathematics in, research mysticism. Axeman kills an archer.

turn 67: mysticism in, research meditation, siwtch production to monument, silver improved, switch ivory to silver, workers head towards the marble.

turn 68: axemen kill two scouts, city grows to size 11, work ivory again.

turn 70: monument finishes, resume pyramid build.meditation finished, research priesthood.

turn 72: priesthood in, research code of laws.

turn 73: great scientist born, builds academy, one scientist specialist switched to copper mine.

turn 74: marble hooked up, start building cottages.

turn 75: switch production to oracle

turn 76: city grows to size 12, citizen works as a science specialist.

turn 77: cottage finished, starts getting worked.

turn 79: second cottage finished, second science specialist removed to work it, workers start chopping forests.

turn 81 1975 BC: Col finished, oracle finished, research metal casting, pick cs, revolt to bureaucracy, switch production to conf temple, delete missionary.



And here's his tips for getting biology from lib in the BCs:
Spoiler :

So here is how to get Biology in the BCS:

a) Get incredibly lucky, I wasn´t able to reliably hold the pass with this buildorder.

b) Follow this tech path: After CS, first go for metalcasting to get the +3 happy forge, then the path to literature for the great library and national epic. Afterwards research music to get the great artist for a golden age. That golden age finally allows you to adopt representation, caste system and confucianism immediately without anarchy. Research philosphy to make the switch to pacifism during the golden age as well.

After philosophy (should be about 1200 BC now) beeline to machinery and use the first great general that your axes have hopefully generated to make a free upgrade of your most experienced axeman. Once this is done the path to your valley is safe until massed flanking 2 horse archers show up, so focus on economy now.

Next tech goal is education, you will most likely generate a great scientist that you can use to bulb education and save a lot of turns. After education go for the printing press, then it´s a straight beeline to chemistry, research liberalism to one turn of completion, bulb another great scientist to partially research sci method and use liberalism to pick biology.

You might have to make a quick detour to drama if you have insufficient happiness at some point.

b) Focus on science buildings, e. g. monasteries are more important than an aqueduct. Only build the necessary and useful wonders ( e.g. great wall, oracle, great library, pyramids, hanging gardens). Use a minimum of axes(2-4) and build 2 musketmen with gunpowder to compliment your samurai general.

c) Always grow your city as fast as possible to the ever raising happy cap.The AI loves to assign a useless specialist when you want to quickly grow your cottages/city. The city should be size 20 in ~900BC.

d) You only need one great general to hold the pass reinforced by some woody3/guerrilla2 muskets. The others wouldn´t effectively fight anyway and would only get collateraled to uselessness anyway. Apart from the first you should settle them all for the beaker/xp bonus until you get railroad.
and
It´s been a while since I last played it, but I think the techpath after CS was metal casting --> meditation --> literature line (chop GL and NE here asap) --> music (Use the GA from the artist as late as possible when you need to switch civics for the happy cap) --> philosophy -->paper --> doublebulb education or self research if you didn´t get two scientists --> machinery --> alphabet --> printing press (bulb with GS if possible) --> chemistry line (chem is bulbable) --> Biology slingshot (sci meth is bulbable).

Once you have biology you have the most important techs for OCC, so you shouldn´t bulb GPs anymore until you get close to robotics (~less than 70 turns of research left).

Remaining tech path was steam power for the +21 hammer levee --> nationalism for the taj mahal (maximum efficiency from GA) then railroad to train new generals safely --> astronomy line for the observatory --> assembly line for the factory and plant --> industrialism for tanks --> straight beeline to robotics.

After Robotics you need to research Mil Science for Commando and theology for theocracy. Fascism for the GG is also helpful, all other techs are not needed, so shut off research afterwards.

Inbetween you want to steal drama from shaka to build the globe to help with emancipation unhappiness.

The National wonders I built in order of appearance:
National Epic --> Oxford --> National Park --> Heroic Epic --> Globe Theatre

I used two GGs to create superunits then settled the next 8 ones, so I could get 21 xp (for commando) with theocracy.

I only built the really useful ancient world wonders, the only modern wonder I built was Christo redentor (Chop the remaining forests for that one) .




I still can't beat it on deity, even with the hut cheats, but I did manage a 1944AD conquest on immortal/normal, no events, no espionage:
Spoiler :

I broke out once I had industrialism, using a GG machine gun for stack protection/healing + a dozen commando infantry + 10 CR3/Pinch/drill tanks + 10 commando/pinch tanks. I killed off around 1/2 of Hammi's empire by the time mechs came online. Another stack of CR3 tanks tore through Shaka (he only had rifles). CR3 tanks are by far the best attackers available (other than the GG mechs), but they're only 2 movement units so they hold up your commando stack. I was able to take out Shaka, Hammi, Khan, and Boudica using mechs, but Toku was a problem with his CG3 marines/ptroops - I was able to take out his peripheral cities with only mechs, but mobile artillery finally saved my bacon. He and Monty went down fast after that.

Civ4ScreenShot0112.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0113.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0114.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0115.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0116.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0117.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0119.jpg

 
Back
Top Bottom