Official announcement: Hot off the presses. Next Civ game in development!!!!!!!

I'm so confused. Why is it insane to include Ukraine?
I'm not saying it's insane per se, I have nothing against a Ukrainian civ somewhere down the road, it's just that the current geopolitical climate makes it unfeasible to be included in this moment in time.
I presume you are a Westerner. It would be difficult for you to understand just how maddening the discourse surrounding Ukraine has been for someone who lives outside of the West. I could explain my position in greater depth, but that would be outside of the purview of this thread.
To put it this way, I would rather the Civilization series chug along as they have been doing so without responding to current events. Much idiocy may thus be averted.
 
Could easy accessibility by Steam also be a contributing factor? I'm not quite sure when Steam started to be honest and if that was the main way to play Civ 4 back when it was released, or not?
Yeah that could be an explanation. I bought Civ IV on CD or DVD (I still have it). Even Starcraft 2 was delivered on CD. That's all gone now.
 
One thing Civ VII should definitely fix is the stupid 'first encounter' bug in Civ 6, where the civ that initiated the first meeting with the second gets to view their capital but the second civ doesn't. And if you happen to be the first civ, and you missed the chance to 'visit their city' at the first meeting, well, then you may have to wait until embassies become a thing to discover where they are located.
I can't believe this is something that hasn't been fixed even now in Civ 6.
 
How is it unfeasible? That doesn't make any sense to me. When I think of the unfeasibility of including a given civ, I can only think of 2 reasons:
1. The language is undeciphered
2. The people of that culture expressly do not want to be included (eg, Pueblo in Civ 5)

AFAIK neither of those 2 reasons apply to Ukraine, so I'm unclear on the unfeasibility.
I shouldn't have used that word, I meant something else, but that was the only one I could think of. But you should be able to understand what I meant to say from the rest of what I wrote.
 
Is that the better way to do it, though? I don't know. As I said, I think there's some pieces that are good to be flexible on. But I do think forcing a few permanent decisions along the road could allow for different strategy options you make in the course of the game. Like, say you were given the choice on turn 20 of a game for +1 production in all forest tiles for the rest of the game, but you don't get the one-time bonus from chopping them. Would you take that? Which decision you take will shape the way your empire grows. But if suddenly you are given that same choice but can change your mind on it (even if you can only change your mind every 20 turns), then suddenly the choice matters less, and it's just going to swap back and forth based on what's going on at that moment in time.
Of course, we need some permanent choices. My problem with the social policy trees was that they were all permanent bonuses and there were so very many of them.
I'm not saying it's insane per se, I have nothing against a Ukrainian civ somewhere down the road, it's just that the current geopolitical climate makes it unfeasible to be included in this moment in time.
I presume you are a Westerner. It would be difficult for you to understand just how maddening the discourse surrounding Ukraine has been for someone who lives outside of the West. I could explain my position in greater depth, but that would be outside of the purview of this thread.
OK. Let's exclude Russia from the next game, too. Because of the geopolitical climate, of course.
 
Your response is to tell me me that Country A being older than Country B means it is more relevant...but I disagree with the premise entirely. If what you're suggesting were true, then we would never have "less relevant" civs like Scythia, Cree, Gran Colombia, etc.
You are misunderstood my response. I meant Country A has been historically relevant for longer than Country B.
As for Scythia, I disagree with its inclusion and believe there were far better choices that should have been included. I do not know much about Native American history, but I suppose Cree filled up the Native American quota. As for Gran Colombia, I disagree with the inclusion of post-colonial states as well, but I am less hostile to its inclusion because Bolivár is just that impressive of a leader.
 
You are misunderstood my response. I meant Country A has been historically relevant for longer than Country B.
Me: "Why is Country A more historically relevant than Country B? What does that mean? What does that have to do with being in a Civ game?"
You: "Country A is more historically relevant than Country B because it is more historically relevant."

:confused:
 
But why do we want more permanent bonuses?
Well, I suppose I can elaborate on my "if Civ's gonna keep pushing the completely parallel playstyles", because I don't take it for a given that this is a good thing for the game's design, but I do take it for a given that it will continue to happen. Civilization VI leans heavily into having the different VCs effectively be a different game. They all interact with some mechanics, but most mechanics in the game are not really focused on for more than 1 or 2. The idea being that by about the mid-game there will be multiple vectors of strength at which various Civs excel, and allowing players to have very different game experiences between runs. This makes the game very....sandboxy, for lack of a better term, Civ VI is like a complex set of Lego blocks you can mix and match for as many interesting combinations as your imagination permits, focusing on the "final result" with very few external pressures. This is also why I don't think the game is going to get any harder, because that sandbox element has proven highly successful with a large segment of the market. To reiterate my previous point then, if Firaxis is going to continue in a sandbox direction for the franchise, giving the players more toys to play with only makes sense.
Civilizations, empires, and peoples change over time and adapt to their circumstances. If your neighbors are aggressive, then you devote more resources into military matters. If you have peaceful neighbors, then perhaps you look into culture or science. If you acquire coastal territory, then you might devote some time to learning more about exploiting that terrain. And so on. Permanent bonuses are actually kind of boring.
The contextual focus of of civilizations historically is arguably covered by other, more direct player actions: If you're feeling military pressure, build units. if you feel you need more science and culture, build the appropriate buildings, promote/upgrade pingala, get a wonder or religious bonus that helps. If you settle some coastline, you'll probably research sailing, maybe build some boats. This doesn't really need to be represented by policies, and especially the way that Civ VI does that makes no historical sense: "Want to make some improvements to your land, better adopt Feudalism for 2 turns. Builders done? Great, get rid of that, no problem. Need more 10 turns later. Back to Feudalism we go boys!" "I want my people to get a Pantheon, better have the worship me as a God for 25 turns until they discover....other....dieties.....don't question it." "My people have spent most of their early history in way with the Aztecs, but by adopting an Oligarchic and militaristic social structure we have been able to conquer our enemies. But, we're about to finish our Ancestral Hall, so we must become a Republic for a handful of turns to grab the Legacy card. Either way, I'm gonna go to Monarchy in a dozen turns anyway." My point here shouldn't be confused as saying that V's Social Policies were any more realistic, but rather that I think Civ is fundamentally unrealistic in how much freedom it gives the player to sculpt their Civilization, and I don't think that's going away.

Permanent bonuses being boring however, that's something I'd like to hear you elaborate on if you're willing, cause I find with VI that just the opposite is true. Social Policy cards suck because there's no consequence to just quickly swapping Feudalism in and out, or military production, or wall production. Being able to specialize in whatever I'm currently doing means I am effectively specialized at doing everything, at which point there's little function in specialization at all. Social Policies at least allowed the player to mix and match different synergies, and the fact that they were permanent meant that your decisions had opportunity cost, and consequently strategic weight. In Civ VI even the more extreme Dark Age cards tend to be used with little consequence, because if the downside's going to cause a problem you simply switch them out. Laws systems like in Civ IV and Old World provide some middle ground here, although the latter leans too far towards Civ VI's impermanence for my liking, and Old World's laws only make balancing sense as one of many ways to spend a powerful secondary resource (Civics)
 
OK. Let's exclude Russia from the next game, too. Because of the geopolitical climate, of course.
Russia has always been in the game. And for good reason too. They are unique in the sense that they are European yet not truly Western, and have been a major player in world history for a long period of time.
The only reason Ukraine is being considered for inclusion is because of current events.
 
Me: "Why is Country A more historically relevant than Country B? What does that mean? What does that have to do with being in a Civ game?"
You: "Country A is more historically relevant than Country B because it is more historically relevant."

:confused:
Yep.
 
Could easy accessibility by Steam also be a contributing factor? I'm not quite sure when Steam started to be honest and if that was the main way to play Civ 4 back when it was released, or not?
Probably. Civ5 was the first game I bought that was a Steam download code rather than an install disk. When Skyrim was the same shortly thereafter, I haven't bought a physical game since.

Isn't Kievan Rus usually what people mean when they want a Ukranian civ? Still, I think it might be a political minefield to include them too.
I'd assume most people are asking for a Cossack Hetmanate, which is the genesis of modern Ukrainian identity. As much as I'd love to see a Rus' civ, it seems very unlikely when both Russia and Ukraine (legitimately) claim it. Personally, I can think of a dozen Central, Eastern, and Southeastern European civs I'd rather see in the game than the Cossack Hetmanate, which IMO would be pointless political pandering that doesn't actually help anyone or affect anything in the real world but... :dunno: NB I'm not saying the Cossack Hetmanate doesn't deserve to be in the game; it would just be far less interesting to me than any of Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia, Czechia, Romania/Transylvania/Wallachia, Lithuania, etc.
 
Russia has always been in the game. And for good reason too. They are unique in the sense that they are European yet not truly Western, and have been a major player in world history for a long period of time.
But Russian culture hasn't been immutable. It's not even been internally uniform or consistent. Yet you speak as if it were this monolith moving across time.

Your argument seems to be almost entirely reducible to: "whichever names for the polities of a given geographical location have run the longest, should be given priority."

So by your approach, England should be in the game because there was already a place which one could refer to as England back in 1066. However, if for whatever reason, instead that region had back then be called "Popolele" and the name England not appeared until the 19th century, now "England" should no longer be considered relevant.

The only reason Ukraine is being considered for inclusion is because of current events.
Not true.
 
NB I'm not saying the Cossack Hetmanate doesn't deserve to be in the game; it would just be far less interesting to me than any of Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia, Czechia, Romania/Transylvania/Wallachia, Lithuania, etc
This is exactly what I have been trying to say for so long but I can't seem to make myself understood
 
But Russian culture hasn't been immutable. It's not even been internally uniform or consistent. Yet you speak as if it were this monolith moving across time.

Your argument seems to be almost entirely reducible to: "whichever names for the polities of a given geographical location have run the longest, should be given priority."

So by your approach, England should be in the game because there was already a place which one could refer to as England back in 1066. However, if for whatever reason, instead that region had back then be called "Popolele" and the name England not appeared until the 19th century, now "England" should no longer be considered relevant.
what
 
Sorry, what button are you refering to?
The big Next-Item-That-Requires-Your-Attention Button in the bottom right.
 
Or, y'know, people with young kids :D Probably other scenarios too.
Certainly. Busy schedules, etc. I throw rocks in jest because it was kind of a sellout, but it made the game easier to play for everyone. Might have made us all a little stupider in the process, but that's the price you pay for convenience.
 
But Russian culture hasn't been immutable. It's not even been internally uniform or consistent. Yet you speak as if it were this monolith moving across time.
Oddly enough yesterday I had a conversation with the instructor whose class I am a teaching assistant in together with other TAs about national, ethnic and linguistic identity. We all concluded that the way people describe themselves as their identities is way different than how we describe our identities nowadays. Like how people call themselves Russians or Ukrainians nowadays is different from how they call themselves 300 years ago. "Russia" as a word to explicitly describe a polity only existed in 1574. During the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the only group that identifies themselves as Polish were the nobles - the peasants didn't even bother what they think of themselves as, all they identified with was their village.

In other words, most, if not all, national identities are relatively recent concepts based on older concepts people that people pick and choose over time.
 
To put it this way, I would rather the Civilization series chug along as they have been doing so without responding to current events.
I agree. And to that extent I believe excluding potential civs based on your reasoning is responding to current events.

But I also agree that the thread is getting mired in this.
 
All I’m saying is that it wouldn’t leave a good taste in my mouth if they only add Ukraine in as a civ because of modern day situations.

If you asked me whether Ukraine would be added if what was going on now wasn’t happening, I would confidently say no. If you asked me whether Ukraine had a slither of hope of getting into Civ VII before February 2022, I would have said no.

It wouldn’t stop me from buying the game, but I would be a little disappointed with such an addition

Anyways, besides Ukraine, Civ VII excites me, but I hope they take their time to polish the game and its AI. That’s one of the big goals imo
 
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