Official announcement: Hot off the presses. Next Civ game in development!!!!!!!

Civilization 5 was an unmitigated disaster. So much so that the lead designer bailed after less than a year in disgrace.

Ed Beach came in and salvaged what he could with the game. God Bless him for that.

However, it was only the Civ community that brought the game up to a somewhat halfway decent level with Vox Populi.

The art style for Civilization 5 was drab and dreary. Just like the game.

Civ VI, while imperfect, is a breath of fresh air and light years better than 5. I have high hopes for Civ VII, especially if they return to a more Civ IV type of game. Civ IV is the best game in the series, by far.
I agree that Beach and the team did a great job with fixing many problems and making a much better game out of Civ 5. But I also think that you do have some strong biases against it!

The art style was certainly never a problem with the game, and I never heard anybody say something bad about it until after the release of Civ 6. The art style was in fact quite stunning at release, and other strategy games like Age of Wonders 3 borrowed ideas from it. In my opinion it looks great today, and as far as I can see it still has a big community of players who play the game and never were able to enjoy Civ 6 much because of that game's artstyle. Including prolific modder Rhye.
 
I agree that Beach and the team did a great job with fixing many problems and making a much better game out of Civ 5. But I also think that you do have some strong biases against it!

The art style was certainly never a problem with the game, and I never heard anybody say something bad about it until after the release of Civ 6. The art style was in fact quite stunning at release, and other strategy games like Age of Wonders 3 borrowed ideas from it. In my opinion it looks great today, and as far as I can see it still has a big community of players who play the game and never were able to enjoy Civ 6 much because of that game's artstyle. Including prolific modder Rhye.

I have strong biases against terrible games, it's true.

However, no need to talk about it further. The less said about that awful game, the better. Not to mention it being off topic.
 
My quarrel here was never with board games. "Gamify" could be interpreted to mean more like a board game and more like a computer game. Criticizing a computer game for becoming more computer game-like may seem a little strange, but I don't know if there are any better words for this and you probably understand what I mean with "gamifying".

Simulation could mean different things to people, especially in computer games, hence why I wrote it in brackets. The main aspect of the simulation or "simulation" in the Civ series is as you mention the other civilizations, how they interact with each other, with you and with the world. This interaction is also governed by rules, which change as their technological level increases. This interaction creates situations such as for example civilizations that were isolated on small geographical bodies lagging behind in technology, compared to those that were on larger continents and had a lot of contact. (In Civ 4 and earlier games, because of tech trading.)

This difference in technology based on geography isn't something that was hardcoded as a mechanic in the game, but instead something which developed naturally, and also mirrored developments in the real world. (Jared Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel" is a strong argument in favor of how important the size and shape of continents have been to shape the destinies of the people living on them.) I would definitely call this a simulation aspect of the game series. And there are many of those, both intended and unintended.
Sorry, didn't mean to suggest you had a problem with one or the other, I was just trying to nail down definitions. My problem is I can talk about design for hours, and this time - when a new game has just been announced - is just a bit addictive, hah. The possibility space is far greater now than it will be as soon as info actually starts dropping about what the game will eventually look like. Eventually, we constrain it to "what we want for the current title", and then the speculation ramps up again.

Having experienced tech trading in SMAC, I can't say I was a huge fan of that as a mechanic. It overwhelmingly favoured the AI as a catch-up mechanism, as in general you are both better than the AI, and the AI was rarely going to give you something you needed (though, admittedly, I favoured Planet, so a tech lead was the general state for my style of gameplay). I dunno. Diplomacy systems in general are tricky, and I avoid using them precisely because they're very hard to get right. I'll participate when there's an obvious benefit to me, and the AI kinda do the same thing, but at higher and lower margins. It doesn't create an organic relationship - it's inherently transactional, and that becomes very "game-y" to me, rather than emergent (the latter is what I'd assign to a more simulation-style game).

I liked the Agendas and how they introduced a need to actually buy into talking with other leaders, building up trust, and so on. It made inevitable betrayals more meaningful (even if they were still obvious). It wasn't just a downward spiral of denounce > war (looking at you, CiV) - you could tailor your gameplay to sooth potential allies in VI, even if the AI still wasn't great at making clever decisions, it felt more organic. It also allows the AIs to interact with each other in more nuanced ways (at times). But I'm harping on about AI personalities a bit and they've often not been a strong point for the series (AI in general is a tricky thing, in my opinion).

I can definitely see it the other way around, mind you. Religion is something that was very "gamified", with entire armies of religious units (by the time we get to VI) massing to maximise the spread of religion. There's a pressure system that enjoy, because that's a consequence of empire-building in a specific way, but the active component was very much not emergent.

(I'm trying not to talk about SMAC too much because it's not a core series entry, but Probe Teams are another great example of gamify-ing a system in a very active way)

The problem with things developing naturally, or any kind of emergent property, is it's linked to how well the game is paced. If the game pacing is off then you could end up missing potential behaviour like this - nomatter how the game progression incentivises it (like tech trading does in IV as you mentioned). It's what I'd call a "quiet" mechanic, vs. the more game-y mechanics that I'd consider louder and more prominent in the core turn-based gameplay loop. Border expansion with culture is pretty prominent in CiV and VI, but it's also a quieter mechanic in that it progresses somewhat organically (unless you nudge it along). You don't have to re-assign tile focus even n turns, or something like that.

It does make me wonder what VII is going to change. The rule of thirds suggests we're overdue for more of a shake-up than we got between V and VI, because VI went into big flashy changes unpacking cities and overhauling the visual identity of the game (both of which I really enjoyed personally), but carried over a lot of the actual mechanical decisions and polished or iterated on them in some fashion.
 
My personal dislike about the boardgame influence, is entirely based on the fact that it literally feels like a boardgame. It’s the fact that it is a PC game and you get zero help with tedious tasks from the PC. It’s small things like builders with charges etc that adds up and you have 1000 tedious tasks to do before ending a turn. It feels like you physically have to do everything.

My thoughts on simulation are fairly simple. I’d like an AI that just made a good civilization without going for winning strat. I want aggressive civs, tech civs, turtle civs etc. No silly agendas like disliking landlocked civs for not having a navy. Agendas could be good if it was a bit more fluid system that changed over time.

I have never played a game of civ with the goal of winning. That is where I think civ fans split. I think those that play to win, love civ6.
 
Having experienced tech trading in SMAC, I can't say I was a huge fan of that as a mechanic. It overwhelmingly favoured the AI as a catch-up mechanism, as in general you are both better than the AI, and the AI was rarely going to give you something you needed (though, admittedly, I favoured Planet, so a tech lead was the general state for my style of gameplay). I dunno. Diplomacy systems in general are tricky, and I avoid using them precisely because they're very hard to get right. I'll participate when there's an obvious benefit to me, and the AI kinda do the same thing, but at higher and lower margins. It doesn't create an organic relationship - it's inherently transactional, and that becomes very "game-y" to me, rather than emergent (the latter is what I'd assign to a more simulation-style game).

I liked the Agendas and how they introduced a need to actually buy into talking with other leaders, building up trust, and so on. It made inevitable betrayals more meaningful (even if they were still obvious). It wasn't just a downward spiral of denounce > war (looking at you, CiV) - you could tailor your gameplay to sooth potential allies in VI, even if the AI still wasn't great at making clever decisions, it felt more organic. It also allows the AIs to interact with each other in more nuanced ways (at times). But I'm harping on about AI personalities a bit and they've often not been a strong point for the series (AI in general is a tricky thing, in my opinion).
I only mentioned tech trading (AI to AI and AI to human) as an example of simulation, but it and diplomacy are definitely interesting topics. I have very different experiences from yours when playing in Civ 3, 4 and 5, but I haven't played SMAC yet, so I don't know how well it works there. (The game looked awesome when it was new, but for various reasons I haven't done anything other than buying it on GOG so far. But it is on my to-play list.)

Diplomacy in Civ 3, 4 and 5 is something I really enjoy in those games. Both when I am trying to build a big empire and when I am trying to stay relatively peaceful. Trying to get good deals and manipulating the current leaders into positions that give me advantages, is something I enjoy a lot. And this also plays into the "personal relationships" you develop with the other civs throughout the game, both with grudges and sympathy. For example in one game in Civ 5 as Arabia, I had a goal of trying to spread my religion to most of the world. As Arabia in Civ 5 you do have both very good peaceful tools for doing this as well as a very good military tools. In this game I wanted to be mostly peaceful. At one point, the Zulus started attacking several civilizations and destabilizing a central part of the huge pangea-like continent we were located on. This led to a lot of trouble for one of my biggest religious competitors, so even if the Zulus had attacked me before, I now hoped they would be able to succeed in their campaigns against their neighbors. I also developed a fondness for them. But the Zulus declarations of war and occupation of cities soon led to several denouncements from other civs. I realized which way this were going to go for them, and this gave me a dilemma, because at one hand I wanted the Zulus to mess up my competitors economy and religious expansion. But on the other hand, the diplomatic rewards you get from denouncing the same civs as somebody else, and at one time having fought against the same civs as somebody else, are quite strong. So in the end I reluctantly denounced and then later attacked my good friends the Zulus. So that I could win valuable favor on the world stage. But with a heavy heart.

The diplomacy system in Civ 5, or denouncement system as I sometimes call it, seems to be heavily misunderstood. Even among Civilization 5 fans. One reason for this is probably that Firaxis didn't explain the various modifiers of favor and disfavor very well in the game, like they did in Civ 4, so many people thinks that you are bound to get denounced by everyone if you make a little mistake, which is patently wrong. In fact, that is something which happened to me just in the beginning when I was learning the game, but after I looked up what the modifiers did on this site, I learned to appreciate and use the system. Often in a Civ 5 game when I take cities from several other civilizations, I am able to stay on the good side of many of the most important civs in the game (what I call the "axis of do-gooders". While some of my nearest neighbors whose lands I have been coveting ends up in the "axis of evil". But to be able to do this requires to use the diplomacy game proactively. A great thing with Civ 5 is also the ideologies which enters later on, and shakes up the established diplomatic landscape.

In Civ 3 and 4 you could trade technology, which was a huge driver of diplomacy. Diplomacy in Civ 5 felt a little empty without this at first, but when I got deeper in the game I found that there were a lot of other interesting deals that could be made. The reason I think why tech trading was removed was because it is very strong in the hands of a human player who has learned to make good deals. But too strong or not, it is a lot of fun to make those deals in the older games, and combined with the diplomacy screens, you feel like you are watching small glimpses of history where important decisions are made. I would love to see the diplomacy screens that change with the time period from Civ 3 come back! I'd gladly trade away all those fancy animations and high number of polygons from Civ 6 for that.

Exploiting the diplomacy system to your own benefit can certainly be seen as "gamified". But at the same time it does reflect some real-world scenarios very well too.

I wasn't a big fan of the diplomacy system in Civ 6 at first, and I wouldn't say that i am now either, because so many of the agendas feels counterintuitive to what you would think the "real" interests of the civs would be. Civ 3, 4 and 5 feels more like harsh "realpolitik" and ideology mixed together, with an emphasis on the first one, while the Civ 6 system often feels quite arbitrary. But, it is also quite a complex and interesting system to play with and exploit so I am positive to it as well. But it could have been done in a much better way with less "nails scraping on chalkboards".
 
One thing that could have been entertaining in a Civilization game, was having a jester as a recurring figure throughout it. A figure that if the feature was turned on, would mock your aspirations, those of your rivals and many things which were going on in the world. With the high amount of possible things happening in such a game, it would be hard to do well in a way that did not feel too repetitive, and eventually, most people would probably turn it off regardless. But if it was done well, and had a lot of work put into it, I think it could have become a well loved part of the game.

This is of course inspired by the advisor panel in Civ 2, and like those, it could have changed appearance as time went on, from for example an actor in classical times, a courtly jester in medieval times, to a protest singer or a standup comedian in the modern age.

If this character was the same person throughout the game it would of course add an additional aspect like the “immortal“ leaders that work against the immersion of it being a real world. But on the other hand, if it was implemented as an optional thing you could choose to put on or not, I think most people would not have a problem with it. Like for the advisor panel in Civ 2.
 
This is a very informative video on how AI should be made. It's a significant part of why Civ IV was so brilliant and conversely why Civilization 5 was so horrendous. Hoping this information and theory will be taken to heart for Civ VII.

The AI is not here to win or act like a human opponent like in 5. It is here to facilitate your gameplay experience like in Civ IV.

 
This is a very informative video on how AI should be made. It's a significant part of why Civ IV was so brilliant and conversely why Civilization 5 was so horrendous. Hoping this information and theory will be taken to heart for Civ VII.

The AI is not here to win or act like a human opponent like in 5. It is here to fascilitate your gameplay experience like in Civ IV.

Civ7 devs please take note.

Also I know I might sound crazy and rude but would this mean that all those who love Civ5 who were naysayers towards Civ6 were wrong all along?
 
And yet, there are countless posts here on the forums complaining that the AI is bad because it can't win games fast enough and because it doesn't always make the best decisions.
There are certainly two camps of players in that regard. One wants an AI that contributes to an immersive experience. The other wants an AI that challenges them at even the highest level of skill.

Firaxis's job is to please both camps of players as best they can.
 
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There are certainly two camps of players in that regard. One wants an AI that contributes to an immersive experience. The other wants an AI that challenges them at even the highest difficulty.

Firaxis's job is to please both camps of players as best they can.
I think that trying to placate both players is the best solution. (But that
may well be because I’m the kind of player that both enjoys the “number-crushing” aspect of the game and the immersion aspect of it.)

I haven’t watched the Soren Johnson video yet though.
 
I think that trying to placate both players is the best solution. (But that
may well be because I’m the kind of player that both enjoys the “number-crushing” aspect of the game and the immersion aspect of it.)

I haven’t watched the Soren Johnson video yet though.
It's an hour long but well worth the watch. 🙂
 
You have sold me on it already. But, if it causes me to use all my gaming time on Civ 3 or Civ 4 from now on, I will hold you personally responsible.
There are worse fates than perpetually playing Civ IV. 😁
 
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There are certainly two camps of players in that regard. One wants an AI that contributes to an immersive experience. The other wants an AI that challenges them at even the highest level of skill.

Firaxis's job is to please both camps of players as best they can.

And I simply cannot fathom why the game couldn't cater to the former at low levels and to the latter at higher levels !!!
 
And I simply cannot fathom why the game couldn't cater to the former at low levels and to the latter at higher levels !!!
They would have to make two systems then. One that makes memorable mistakes and one that makes no mistakes.
 
There is nothing immersive when there is no interaction with AI as it is reduced to background decoration.
Civ5 had neither good AI nor it was playing to win (in fact it had enormous issues with basic tasks like moving spaceflight parts to proper city, because for example it was blocked by idle worker).
Game dev talking that good AI would be bad, is a bit like hmmm, a car dealer trying to sell a car without wheels? "Hey, it is at least very safe". I will pass.
It is always much easier to dumb down an AI to make it as apathetic as possible (zombie mode), even right now there is this difficulty called Settler. I completely do not understand a spite against those who would like a working AI in a strategy game (with multiple players to be designed as equal rivals with equal rulesets). There is no shame in playing games on easy mode.

Good AI that can execute various viable strategies will be always more immersive than 2D cardboard put on the scene background.
Some players just do not want too much immersion, they want to play alone in their sandbox, to not be bothered there and to see a 2D cardboard at horizon. It is totally okay though.
 
There is nothing immersive when there is no interaction with AI as it is reduced to background decoration.
Civ5 had neither good AI nor it was playing to win (in fact it had enormous issues with basic tasks like moving spaceflight parts to proper city, because for example it was blocked by idle worker).
Game dev talking that good AI would be bad, is a bit like hmmm, a car dealer trying to sell a car without wheels? "Hey, it is at least very safe". I will pass.
It is always much easier to dumb down an AI to make it as apathetic as possible (zombie mode), even right now there is this difficulty called Settler. I completely do not understand a spite against those who would like a working AI in a strategy game (with multiple players to be designed as equal rivals with equal rulesets). There is no shame in playing games on easy mode.

Good AI that can execute various viable strategies will be always more immersive than 2D cardboard put on the scene background.
Some players just do not want too much immersion, they want to play alone in their sandbox, to not be bothered there and to see a 2D cardboard at horizon. It is totally okay though.
The problem is, Civ7 will never please everyone. It's an impossible thing a game can ever achieve

Everyone wants different things, and some people will be disappointed.

I on the other hand, will be happy with whatever because I love the series (okay, if they bring in territories and humankind style combat I will be sad)
 
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