offworld trade and resources

[Pickly]

I still don't really see this as a problem. We should try to balance at a faction level, not a mechanic level.

I agree though that some of the obvious bonuses (Slig, Caladaanian wine) should be faction-tied.

But I see no reason for Harkonnen to be tied to a particular resource. Offworld labor is the only one that would make sense for them, but that is the most useless to them, because of their slave mechanic.

Are you guys unable to add any more resources? I'm somewhat curious since it seems your arguments seem mostly based on using current resources, rather than adding or substituting other types of when the system is reworked. (which from the recent posts in here seemed something you're considering anyway.) If nothing else, there also aren't enough resources in game for all factions to get a couple. (18 needed, vs. 9-11 or so in game, I don't remember exactly.)


In greater detail, the issue here is the forced specialization that tying a faction to an automatic world resource would cause. Having the harkonnen not be forced into a particular contract doesn't just mean they don't automatically have a particular resource, it also means they have a lot more gameplay options for the resources they do get. This isn't an issue as much if the house contracts aren't forced, but is an issue if they are. (This sort of forced specialization vs. a more generalized use also seems funny backstory wise to me, although I'm not sure about other people, though gameplay wise it certainly seems really off.)

(I can see the individual points of what you're arguing, it's when they get put together that the result doesn't work well.)

 

[Jester Fool]

Are you guys unable to add any more resources? I'm somewhat curious since it seems your arguments seem mostly based on using current resources, rather than adding or substituting other types of when the system is reworked.

What would you suggest as an offworld trade resource? All of the current offworld trade resources are based upon the books. IMO, any new offworld trade resources should also tie into the books - this is a Dune mod after all.

If nothing else, there also aren't enough resources in game for all factions to get a couple. (18 needed, vs. 9-11 or so in game, I don't remember exactly.)

Keep in mind too that being timely in constructing your landing stages should count for something. Sorta like 'you snooze, you lose.' Founding religions embodies this principle.

In greater detail, the issue here is the forced specialization that tying a faction to an automatic world resource would cause. Having the harkonnen not be forced into a particular contract doesn't just mean they don't automatically have a particular resource, it also means they have a lot more gameplay options for the resources they do get. This isn't an issue as much if the house contracts aren't forced, but is an issue if they are. (This sort of forced specialization vs. a more generalized use also seems funny backstory wise to me, although I'm not sure about other people, though gameplay wise it certainly seems really off.)

From a flavour and book standpoint, forced specializations are the way to go IMO. House Corrino SHOULD have 'Sardaukar Cooperation' and House Ix SHOULD have 'Ixian Weaponry', etc. Keeping 'Dune Wars' as close to the books as possible is most likely the best way to go.

 

[Deliverator]

In greater detail, the issue here is the forced specialization that tying a faction to an automatic world resource would cause.

I understand your point, but the forced specialization would be what would give the factions more flavour. You could say that unique units and unique buildings are also a form of forced specialization. We want the factions to play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.

Also remember that the Landing Stages give 3 copies of the resource and their should be interesting choices around who you build diplomatic relations and trade with. Part of the original ideas was that playing as the Harkonnen you could devolop good relations with Corrino and then obtain and use the Sardaukar which is very in theme.

There seem to be two options for tying the unique resources to the factions that own them more strongly:

Option 1. Faction unique resources are provided by the first of the landing stages the player builds. i.e. the first choice is made for you if you have a unique resource.

Option 2. Faction unique resources are provided by a different non-landing stage building available at Offworld Trade. For example, if I am Corrino then there is a Sardaukar Barracks building which provides Sardaukar Cooperation. This differs from Option 1 in that when I get to Offworld Trade I can either build a Landing Stage and get a free pick or my own unique resource building. I think this would only differ functionally from the current implementation if we limit Landing Stages (free picks) to 1 for everyone but Ecaz. I guess another difference is that I can make the buildings that give the stronger resources cost more.

The question is: should I always get my unique resource first, or should I have the freedom to have a free pick first, but then have to build my unique resource second? There is actually more than one way to implement either of these options.

I think we should be able to find a unique resource for all factions except Harkonnen. We want part of the Harkonnen them to be that they come from a blasted post-industrial wreck of a world, and so are more reliant on trading with others for goods. In fact, I think we should give them only a single landing stage to increase their trade dependence, while finding some suitable spice production bonus for them to offset this.

So most people could have 1 unique resource and 1 free pick. Harkonnen would just 1 free pick and Ecaz could either have 1 UR and 2 free picks or 2 URs and 1 free pick.

What would you suggest as an offworld trade resource? All of the current offworld trade resources are based upon the books. IMO, any new offworld trade resources should also tie into the books - this is a Dune mod after all.

Browse the Appendix and Dune Encyclopedia and see if you have some inspiration.

I am all for adding a few more if we have good ideas. My latest idea for another Ecaz one is Pneumofungus for enabling a Pneumofungus Spores first stikes, anti-melee promotion.

 

[Ahriman]

Are you guys unable to add any more resources?

Sure, we *can* add more if we get ideas for more resources.

But we have to be very very careful about in particular happy/health resources, because the more there are in total the weaker these mechanics are, because it becomes too easy to satisfy the cutoff constraint above which additional happy/health is useless.

If nothing else, there also aren't enough resources in game for all factions to get a couple.

Intended. If you're too slow to offworld trade, you don't get resources. There is competition for resources!
That's part of the point of a faction-specific resource, it preserves that for you no matter how slow you are to offworld trade.

In greater detail, the issue here is the forced specialization that tying a faction to an automatic world resource would cause

Forced specialization is good; it adds faction flavor.

it also means they have a lot more gameplay options for the resources they do get.

Good. Harkonnen are able resource exploiters.

Option 1. Faction unique resources are provided by the first of the landing stages the player builds. i.e. the first choice is made for you if you have a unique resource.

Option 2. Faction unique resources are provided by a different non-landing stage building available at Offworld Trade. For example, if I am Corrino then there is a Sardaukar Barracks building which provides Sardaukar Cooperation. This differs from Option 1 in that when I get to Offworld Trade I can either build a Landing Stage and get a free pick or my own unique resource building. I think this would only differ functionally from the current implementation if we limit Landing Stages (free picks) to 1 for everyone but Ecaz. I guess another difference is that I can make the buildings that give the stronger resources cost more.

In general option 1 seems simpler to me. Option 2 would have issues with Harkonnen, who have no faction-specific resource, and so should have 2 landing stage picks.
But I am relatively indifferent.

in fact, I think we should give them only a single landing stage to increase their trade dependence, while finding some suitable spice production bonus for them to offset this.

Hmm. Maybe. Harkonnen also control other worlds, like whale-fur from Lankveill (Abulurd Harkonnen's planet).
I guess we could limit them to a single landing stage, and then give them a UB national wonder at offword trade that provided say 3 free spice.