On CYOAs and the definition of IOT

[Tyo]

So, it was brought to my attention that there are several threads on this forum that are not IOTs. Mainly, these refer to CYOAs but I imagine that it goes further than that, to threads that really aren't games at all.

Many of you may think this discussion seems petty, but the person who brought it up has convinced me that this is a discussion worth having.

On one side of the fence, we have members of the community that wish to create content for the community even if they aren't really IOTs at all in any capacity, just creative works that are fun or work on IOT tropes. I am guilty of such action myself. On the other side, there are concerns that this "clubifying" of IOT could hurt the community in the long run as IOT becomes indistinguishable from forum games aside from just having a bigger community. For example, if people can use "it's for the community" to run a CYOA in IOT, why not a mafia? Why not literally anything?

Now I don't think it would be right for me, a single member of the community, to make this decision on my own even if I am the resident mod. I am conflicted about this myself and I see the validity of both points of view. So that is why I wanted to make this thread. I want to see what the community feels is the right call for better or for worse.

For this reason, I also added a poll. Vote responsibly. Keep the discussion civil. Don't insult each other. I think we're mature enough to talk about the definition of IOT without causing significant drama. Let's not turn this into a riot when we're all friends here.

I also added a "you're the mod, you decide" option. As I am the mod I do honestly have the power to enforce whatever I want, but like I said, I don't want to do that without the support of the community. That said, I am prepared to make a decision so yeah. Discuss away.

 

[Tyo]

For clarification, I will not be voting in the poll myself. This decision does affect things such as creative writing with no game behind them and thing such as "IOT saves the world as xcom."

Just as a reminder, yes, I myself made that last one.


KaiserElectric put my concern into better words:
"Is IOT the community that plays the game, or is IOT the game that our community plays?"

 

[Omega124]

I dislike the poll because it is loaded in its conception. It presumes that CYOAs are not IOTs, a premise that I would in fact disagree with. Obviously, there is no united definition of what an IOT is, but from my experience the two are very similar.

Both CYOAs and traditional IOTs are work of collaborative fiction, in which a mod writes a continuous story reflected by the orders of the participants in the game. The only real difference is that in the CYOAs (and not even all, see Christos game for an example of one that doesn't work this way), is that the players don't have principle control each of an actor (which in most IOTs is a country, although in story IOTs, actors are specific characters), instead being forced to all work together as representatives of a single actor. Besides this one difference, they really do work the same on a fundamental level. To deride the existence of, say, Millions of Ways is /only/ logically consistent if all non nation based games were banned, which goes against previously established precedent.

However to make my voice heard I will vote 2. Still ashamed over how loaded the poll is, though.

 

[Red_Spy]

A collection of forum-based roleplay, strategy and world-building games.

CYOAs neither contain roleplay elements, that is entirely on the GM/mod and is more about picking direction to go in than RPing, strategy elements in a style similar to other games, or nation-building. They have grown into a game of their own, a style of game where a GM presents choices for the players to vote on rather than a player actively engaging in the game through either RP or strategy.

It's for that reason I support moving it to forum games. They don't fit any definition of IOT given, they have grown past their community activity roots, and thus fit in the forum games subforum rather than IOT. If it's about the community playing the game, one can still link the thread to IOT players for them to join.

 

[Omega124]

But CYOAs do in fact pass the first Criteria. The game is a shared role play, in which everyone cooperates in controlling a single character, in which afterwards the mod then resolves and presents the next scenario in which the players must cooperate on actions. Theoretically there is nothing stopping players from engaging in philosophical debates about what position or take, or write what they think should result from the option taken, besides general apathy.

But since the players are collaborating together to operate as some (bi polar) individual, there is certainly role playing going on.

 

[Crezth]

Regardless of whether or not we can define an IOT (and I'm saying it's irrelevant to the point that follows, so don't quote this bit and try to argue it), it strikes me that threads which are not strictly games or IOTs should obviously be permitted. This message board exists for the pleasure and convenience of the community, and, with the health of the community in mind, it seems unwise to make proscriptions against off-topic threads in the primary bulletin board of the community. As a mod, you may disagree because Off Topic is supposed to be the place for that - but IOT is a community which is distinct from the rest of the website.

This suggests I think IOT is a community, which I do think (and I think the same about NES) - but that doesn't mean it's not also a kind of game in much the same way that Starcraft is both a game and a community. The people influence the game influence the people etc. You can't really extract one from the other meaningfully. Case in point, if you accept that NES and IOT pretty much did the same thing, then they are distinguished by their unique communities. QED, IOT is at least a combination of a community and an activity.

tl;dr let them post crap - this is their place to do it

 

[KaiserElectric]

I don't think the CYOAs and other games like that should be moved out of the forum, and whether or not you think that the definition of IOTs apply to CYOA or not, there's still the aspect of the community. If they were posted here in a popular forum by some random newcomer, then yes I would say they should be moved. However, these games were created by IOTers for IOTers, and I think that's the point that needs to be focused on.

We're a pretty awesome community, and I think one of our strongest points is that we've always been open-minded and willing to try new things. Stuff like Still Waters and the CYOAs are examples of that, and given the activity in both of these games it is clear that the community likes them to be here. It's not fair to us and it's not fair to the creators to shunt the games off into what is frankly a necrotic forum at this point based on a definition that, to paraphrase Captain Barbossa, has always been more of a guideline then a rule.

We like the games just fine where they are. They don't need to be moved.

 

[NinjaCow64]

In the past, things that have a lot of IOT membership but aren't really IOTs have been hosted elsewhere in CFC. Write Your Own Story is a very good example of this, it was hosted on Arts & Entertainment even though it was originated in the minds of IOTers. Admittedly, it was heavily inspired by DYOS, but only a few DYOS regulars participated in it and many of them participate in IOTs regularly anyway. CYOAs should probably be moved.

What about Argentina stuff or community based stories? Argentina is different because of its non-interactive nature and I think community based stories could find a happy home there. But CYOAs have far outgrown their community roots and would probably thrive better in Forum Games. Having games that are that far removed from IOT become a thing on IOT would set a bad precedence, that would open the floodgates for a bunch of "community" Mafias and ACs and related and we as a community would be powerless to remove it.

I do have to express some sort of displeasure about how this brought up though. I think the status quo would have been okay before someone had to escalate this issue, making it into some sort of major decision that effects IOTers that don't play CYOAs also. We could have easily crossed that bridge when off-topic games became a problem and I don't think that one or two CYOAs was that big a problem. And polls often provoke drama and bad feelings amongst each other. I know it's OT but I had to say it.

 

[CivOasis]

I think I've made it clear in the past that I think broadening and/or merging a lot of these communities would be healthy for the subforums, as our influx of NESers has shown.

That being said - I think part of the problem is that people can and do contest the definition of an IOT, and the issue of defining it is a thorny one that we would be better off avoiding. So long as it's more or less a game - IE, something taking player input to achieve a result - I think we're fine.

Random joke threads are kind of spammy though.

 

[Double A]

Poland is an IOT.

 

[Blaze Injun]

Hey,

I believe the definition given of a NES is lacking.

First: What is a NES? "A NES is where players take control of countries, or tribes, or factions of some sort in a fictional or partly fictional setting, while another person, the mod, runs the NES. Players do diplomacy on a forum thread and send in orders in time for a deadline set by the mod, who then writes an update, describing recent events. Then the players do more diplomacy and send another set of orders and the NES continues like that.

The idea that a NES is just a game is lacking in the Story part. Many NES were more then orders & diplomacy. Many players invested in running stories that flesh out the worlds. The games you mention would not have a eye batted at them in NES. And seeing that the IOTers have taken us in, after much debate, I see no reason to move them anywhere.

Thanks,

Blaze Injun, NESer

 

[Tyo]

This isn't about NES

 

[Ailedhoo]

But it is important considering the NESIOT consultations.

 

[Crezth]

The idea that a NES is just a game is lacking in the Story part. Many NES were more then orders & diplomacy. Many players invested in running stories that flesh out the worlds. The games you mention would not have a eye batted at them in NES.

NES, however, is sort of infamously uncritical about what actually constitutes their hobby. There is a lot of "story"-ing and fleshing out of worlds, but this is little different than what is frequently done in tabletop RPGs - which still pivot on a central theme and have a body of rules governing player interactions. A player's motivations may happily lean towards narrative construction and storytelling, but that doesn't make the core activity any less a game (even one as flexible as, say, D&D). If I showed up to board game night with Risk and started telling stories about my armies' conquest of the world, that wouldn't change the fact that the progression of the game hinges on the outcome of dice (and strategy and diplomacy), not so much the narrative - as interesting as it is.

In most cases I find narratives in NES to be a product of this lust for rationalizing game outcomes through narratives. It can be cool and fun, but it is the window dressing - not the substance of the activity.

 

[gay_Aleks]

It seems, in each thread that isn't an IOT or a NES in itself, the chance of someone pondering the philosophical question "What, in the seven circles of Hell (sic), is IOT? Or what is NES?". A question, filled with great depths. All fine and dandy, if it only that didn't matter, when compared to the fact we're all dust flying in the cold, dead space, and wouldn't it be a damn shame that all that remains is long-winded diatribes about what is and what isn't an IOT/NES, instead of having fun?

Pseudointellectual nonsense written by a person who hasn't slept properly since May 2015 aside (that's me!), I believe we should just live and let live. Or something. I mean, the mods could abuse their powers and move it. I'd be upset for like a day, then spend some time wondering "is it worth it anymore", then go back to writing. Or making a proper ruleset. Who knows.

 

[Crezth]

It seems, in each thread that isn't an IOT or a NES in itself, the chance of someone pondering the philosophical question "What, in the seven circles of Hell (sic), is IOT? Or what is NES?". A question, filled with great depths. All fine and dandy, if it only that didn't matter, when compared to the fact we're all dust flying in the cold, dead space, and wouldn't it be a damn shame that all that remains is long-winded diatribes about what is and what isn't an IOT/NES, instead of having fun?

What do you mean "instead?"

 

[gay_Aleks]

You're having fun on writing 5 paragraphs on the mysterious question of "What is NES?"?

That sounds very odd.

 

[Tyo]

Anyways, it looks like consensus was reached. Thread closed. Unless this becomes a significant problem in the future, we can consider this discussion resolved.