On Moving or Staying

[Israelite9191]

@Symph: I am not in particular familiar with the Civ 4 Stories and Tales subforum (only that it is in the much more active Civ 4 forum), so I will have to take your word for it taht it is less active.

@Bird: I know that yours was the only post to specifically use the word "goals" but the discussion, especially since Symph has stepped in to streamline it, has generally taken the form of a debate between whether we want a larger, "younger," community or a more stable, but smaller community. In my opinion, this just takes away from actually finding a compromise solution.

There is no way that one side of the debate is going to definatively convince the other side that they are right. At this point we know the arguments for boths sides and who supports what, so in stead of continuing to just run around in circles we ought to find a compromise that all (or at least most) can agree on.

 

[Abaddon]

Well is there any reason to connect us up to cIV other than the reason we were connected to Civ3? which in itself no longer makes sense?

 

[Israelite9191]

Perhaps, given the evidence shown that the Civ 4 Stories and Tales is not significantly more active than the Civ 3 equivalent, a move to Civ 4 is not the best compromise option. However, simply continuing to debate goals and ideals of the community is not helping us in any way. If others have compromise suggestions, then we need to hear them.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Idea's nice, Bird, but trying to get these people to draft and execute a complicated and detailed plan is a few orders of magnitude beyond herding cats.

Plus, quite frankly, miring this discussion down with a bunch of questions few people have ever even considered will keep us in the exact same sort of pointless discussion, not freedom from it. People here can't even agree on the facts behind a single point. You think they'd agree on the positions of several dozen?

Meticulous planning will not solve this issue as everyone has different agendas and opinions. You may as well ask the Black Panthers and the Ku Klux Klan to draft a joint mission statement for environmental protection. Bureaucracy is not an effective tool for this issue.

@Bird: I know that yours was the only post to specifically use the word "goals" but the discussion, especially since Symph has stepped in to streamline it, has generally taken the form of a debate between whether we want a larger, "younger," community or a more stable, but smaller community. In my opinion, this just takes away from actually finding a compromise solution.

There is no way that one side of the debate is going to definatively convince the other side that they are right. At this point we know the arguments for boths sides and who supports what, so in stead of continuing to just run around in circles we ought to find a compromise that all (or at least most) can agree on.

Since you have doomed the process out of the box, I will withdraw from this discussion and update my NES.

 

[Abaddon]

This talk of "compromise" is a distraction, we can't half move, we either do or don't.

Were never going to convince a clear majority either way, thats how arguing over the internet works.

I KNOW things will be better off if we had our own section, but I am but a lone voice.

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[Abaddon]

The arguement that with more players, bigger games would result is faulty.

A Mod is only human, creating an update from 30+ players is not feasible unless you want to start paying for the privalidge of someone taking the time to do it.

The only realistic gains from an increased player base is more NES running, and more fresh ideas. Both which are still highly valuable.

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[Abaddon]

Turns out the Civ4 section does indeed currently see a much higher level of traffic at this very moment.

I will now monitor for the next week, trying to make as many recordings as possible, and submit once complete.

I will be doing this from the UK, if someone else could gather data from elsewhere in the world it would be most helpful.

I need the amount of members and guests in each of the three following forum folders:

NES:
Civ3 S&T:
Civ4 S&T:

 

[North King]

I still have traumatic memories from the time that Turner declared that animal stories were spam, and closed LINESII...

He also reopened it; and looking back on it, I'd have to agree that there was a lot of spamming going on.

Moderators, in general, just make the community less cohesive. I do remember one conversation a long time ago that involved a lot of blatant racism/anti-Semitism when I would have really appreciated the increased presence of a moderator, but other than that I think the amount of moderator involvement that we have had is optimal.

How is a moderator presence negative?

A Mod is only human, creating an update from 30+ players is not feasible unless you want to start paying for the privalidge of someone taking the time to do it.

Er, no. Player numbers have never been a problem for me, personally. Except when there are too few.

 

[Justo]

Turns out the Civ4 section does indeed currently see a much higher level of traffic at this very moment.

I will now monitor for the next week, trying to make as many recordings as possible, and submit once complete.

I will be doing this from the UK, if someone else could gather data from elsewhere in the world it would be most helpful.

I need the amount of members and guests in each of the three following forum folders:

I will gather some traffic data during Australian Night Time provided I remember. Usually there are no more then 3 people viewing the NES section during this time and I'm including myself in that.

 

[Abaddon]

Er, no. Player numbers have never been a problem for me, personally. Except when there are too few.

What is the maximum player number you have ever had? I'm sure if you doubled it you would struggle to pull updates together within a reasonable time to maintain interest.

 

[Abaddon]

I will gather some traffic data during Australian Night Time provided I remember. Usually there are no more then 3 people viewing the NES section during this time and I'm including myself in that.

Cheers Make sure you note the date an time (I'll try to remeber to convert times to GMT!)

TBH if we get only one or two readings each day for a week that should be more than enough.

 

[Justo]

I'll try get them around when everyone logs off roughly 6 pm and then when I go to bed around 11 pm my time.

 

[North King]

What is the maximum player number you have ever had? I'm sure if you doubled it you would struggle to pull updates together within a reasonable time to maintain interest.

24, evidently. However, having taken a look at all of my NESes in order to obtain this count, I found absolutely no correlation between number of players and length of NES, which supports the point I was making: player number does not significantly impact the NES's longevity.

 

[Israelite9191]

Since you have doomed the process out of the box, I will withdraw from this discussion and update my NES.

Sorry Bird, I didn't mean to do that. It's not that your idea for structuring the debate is bad (its actually, in my opinion at least, better than what you were trying to fix), it's just that it seems to me that we are going nowhere as it is.

If anything doomed the process, it wasn't me. I am just stating how things are.

I believe Bird was refering to my comment. My apologies.

The resolve of one side or the other will falter eventually

I personally am prepared to stand by my position come hell or high water unless some demonstrative data is produced capable of disproving my established position

That's the problem. Pretty much everyone here has a strong personality and is not likely to change their opinion any time soon.

There is no such thing as a compromise position. We go somewhere or we don't, as Abaddon said. Where is currently immaterial. The question is if.

I would have to disagree with this. I believe that those opposed to a move as has been discussed would be much more amicable to a more minor transition. A compromise between drastic change and no change is certainly attainable. In any case, for myself at least, what matters is solutions. This debate over the pros and cons of "movement" in general doesn't interest me, especially since they have already been layed out fairly well for the community to revue. Rather, I want to here actual, tangible proposals of what to do, i.e. where we'd move.

How is a moderator presence negative?

From what I remember whenever moderators have become more involved in the forum, the amount of "community building" decreased dramatically. A good example of this would be Turner's banning animal stories and closing LINESII for it. Our community has a unique flavour of its own and moderator intervention has, in the past, been somewhat detrimental. Of course, now that we have the "While we wait" thread, this may not be as much of an issue. Even so, I hardly see how more moderator action is necessary.

Er, no. Player numbers have never been a problem for me, personally. Except when there are too few.

I would have to agree with this wholeheartedly. As a Mod, the only related problem I have ever run into is a lack of players.

 

[North King]

From what I remember whenever moderators have become more involved in the forum, the amount of "community building" decreased dramatically. A good example of this would be Turner's banning animal stories and closing LINESII for it. Our community has a unique flavour of its own and moderator intervention has, in the past, been somewhat detrimental. Of course, now that we have the "While we wait" thread, this may not be as much of an issue. Even so, I hardly see how more moderator action is necessary.

I recall that people actually were spamming that thread, rather badly as well.

As to why they're necessary, we had a rather bad spate of spam recently.

 

[Abaddon]

Er, no. Player numbers have never been a problem for me, personally. Except when there are too few.

Noones even arguing that. (apart from the obvious lack of players=death)

I am saying is that NESing has reaching its optimum player number under these forums conditions, a mod would be unable to cope with a significant increase in players.


More NESers means more NES running, but not more in a single NES

.

 

[Israelite9191]

As to why they're necessary, we had a rather bad spate of spam recently.

I'll have to take your word on that (feels like I'm saying that a lot recently...). Even so, based purely on what I have experienced as a member, I would have to say that increased moderator presence is not always good.

Turns out the Civ4 section does indeed currently see a much higher level of traffic at this very moment.

Noting this revelation, I will re-suggest that we become a subforum of the Civ4 Stories and Tales forum as a compromise between a more radical move and staying put.

 

[Abaddon]

I also move my vote to Civ4 in order for a move to gain momentum. I will switch my vote once momentum is gained to the more radical position of our own section in forum games. I like diplomacy