On Moving or Staying

[Israelite9191]

Noones even arguing that. (apart from the obvious lack of players=death)

I am saying is that NESing has reaching its optimum player number under these forums conditions, a mod would be unable to cope with a significant increase in players.


More NESers means more NES running, but not more in a single NES

I remember times when we have had many more NESers than we have currently. From just glancing around at the current NESes and other threads running, I'd have to say they were better than now. In any case, any judgement on the optimal number of NESers is best made by those who have been here longest (Das, NK, Jason, Gelion, and the others who I know I am forgetting but are no less relevant), and even their judgements cannot be taken at face value given that different people will have different opinions of what is optimal.

 

[Supermath]

I personally don't see any problems with more people, provided that we don't get too big.

 

[Fuschia]

I am going to say some things and, hopefully, they won't already have been said. And, before I say anything, I do not know everything so, if I make an absolute factual error, please correct me. Always important to know when you're wrong.


Looking at the NESes I have played in, the quality has little to do with player count. It has everything to do with three things: the quality of diplomacy, the diligence of the Mod, and the rule set.

The quality of diplomacy is, more or less, people staying IC as much as possible, with few OOC posts.

The Mods are important because they write the updates, and it is more often they who incinerate their own NESes because of a lack of time to update then it is the players disinterest.

Finally, the rule set is important. I personally like rules that allow for a great deal of flexibility. Obviously, this varies from person to person.

That being said, the real dispute here is not whether or not we should move but whether or not it is better to have more people join NESing; specifically, more people that none of us will have any experience with, will not know personally or through reputation, and will have no way of knowing their level of knowledge or commitment to any NESes they join.

Having additional people such as those mentioned is like flipping a coin. Some will be good, and the rest will be bad or lazy, although their will be surely more bad and lazy people than good people. An assumption, but one I believe justified.

A solution to the small number of people without the negative side effects is to simply get people that you know to join, people you are fairly sure will be both motivated, interested, and fairly knowledgeable. It is not difficult, I hope, because people who like something are generally friends with people who also like that thing, especially when it comes to something as broad as history and/or grand strategy.

In other words, I am against moving because it will bring people who will ruin the quality of games to this forum. One bad player is more than capable of destroying an entire NES, while it takes a number of good players and a good Mod to make one truly excellent and memorable. An influx of good players can be had through recruitment rather than increased visibility if everyone just puts forth a little effort.

Again, hopefully this wasn't already said. If it was, forgive me, I tried to read but got lost after all the incredibly long posts on the first page...

 

[Justo]

I also think moving to Civ 4 would be the best way to gain more participation. While i'm not certain I believe the majority of NESers came here from Civ games so staying with this would imo be the best way to maintain the status quo in player quality but also increase the amount of players.

Regarding player quality imo so long as players actually read the rules of each NES they join and so long as there are examples of orders around for them to view I don't think things will get out of hand. I think if we can get the Show me your orders thread stickied that could help out in this area.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If mentioning NESing in sigs brings people here (and I think it does) then it is important to know in what other forums NESers post.

 

[Abaddon]

I certainly know my sig brings in a lot of the lurkers.
(I have a tendancy to pre-emp lurkers and ask them what they are doing invite them to play)

 

[North King]

Noones even arguing that. (apart from the obvious lack of players=death)

I am saying is that NESing has reaching its optimum player number under these forums conditions, a mod would be unable to cope with a significant increase in players.


More NESers means more NES running, but not more in a single NES

.

I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to say anymore; please clarify.

Looking at the NESes I have played in, the quality has little to do with player count. It has everything to do with three things: the quality of diplomacy, the diligence of the Mod, and the rule set.

Once again, player count makes a difference: when there are too few, it goes down in quality.

Having additional people such as those mentioned is like flipping a coin. Some will be good, and the rest will be bad or lazy, although their will be surely more bad and lazy people than good people. An assumption, but one I believe justified.

Sadly, this has been brought up before, repeatedly. And once again, people seem to underestimate the capacity of the human mind. Players who are stupid will either be barred from the forums by continued spamming, or they will be incompetent and their nations will not do as well. Therefore, they will weed themselves out.

In other words, I am against moving because it will bring people who will ruin the quality of games to this forum. One bad player is more than capable of destroying an entire NES, while it takes a number of good players and a good Mod to make one truly excellent and memorable. An influx of good players can be had through recruitment rather than increased visibility if everyone just puts forth a little effort.

Wholeheartedly disagreed. One player cannot destroy an NES unless the mod and players let them. You can shut someone up; get a moderator to stomp them; kick them out; it doesn't really matter. You're acting as though an NES is a physical edifice, and once it is carved one way, you can never get it back. The beauty of electronics is that you can revise as often as you need, and cut the stupidity out entirely.

I also think you really overestimate the maliciousness of other forumgoers. If they were really evil people wanting to tromp in and ruin everything, they would find us anyway.

 

[Abaddon]

North, I assume you are being sarcastic since the sentances I wrote read fine...

 

[North King]

North, I assume you are being sarcastic since the sentances I wrote read fine...

Actually, for once I'm not being sarcastic at all. I honestly can't understand them.

 

[LightFang]

What Abaddon's trying to say is that more people in a NES doesn't necessarily lead to more players per NES but rather just more NESes with small numbers per NES. And he's also arguing that mods can't handle an increase in player size and that what we have right now is optimal.

Of course this argument is bunk because nobody said that there had to be NESes with increasing player size, only that, with a move, it'd become possible, which is a lot better than impossible, as the situation turns out to be right now.

Honestly, what is up with this "oh, the other people will ruin our party!" Such rampant xenophobia! Everybody started out new sometime. I don't think there are very many people who would purposely come in here and randomly spam things up for malicious purposes. I think the problem is that they're budding NESers who aren't completely sure of what they're doing and just need a mod to be nice and show example orders and who won't let them play huge powerful countries and players who will help them out. Sure, maybe some of them can't type for beans or perhaps spam a bit much, but we can work on their social skills. You can't deny their enthusiasm.

 

[Fuschia]

Sadly, this has been brought up before, repeatedly. And once again, people seem to underestimate the capacity of the human mind. Players who are stupid will either be barred from the forums by continued spamming, or they will be incompetent and their nations will not do as well. Therefore, they will weed themselves out.

I apologize for that, then. Still, even if they are weeded out, a constant influx of new people from greatly increased visibility will mean that, as they are weeded out, new people will enter, rendering your point moot. A moot point. Which way does it go again?

Wholeheartedly disagreed. One player cannot destroy an NES unless the mod and players let them. You can shut someone up; get a moderator to stomp them; kick them out; it doesn't really matter. You're acting as though an NES is a physical edifice, and once it is carved one way, you can never get it back. The beauty of electronics is that you can revise as often as you need, and cut the stupidity out entirely.

Everything you say is true, but it is fairly easy for one person to destroy an NES for a period of time and, as I state above, a constant influx of such people will ruin an NES over a much longer period of time. The only purpose of greater visibility is to achieve such an influx, which would be more than capable of ruining multiple NESes because of additional people.

Once again, player count makes a difference: when there are too few, it goes down in quality.

This is why I suggested recruitment. If we really need more people, we can always go out and find some, most of which will be decent NESers.

I also think you really overestimate the maliciousness of other forumgoers. If they were really evil people wanting to tromp in and ruin everything, they would find us anyway.

I do not believe any person would intentionally come in with the intent to destroy a thread that others enjoy and, even if there are such people, they would be few and far between. I fear the stupid, the dull, the noncommittal, and their ilk much more, and it is these people who we will find many more of when we become more visible.

These sorts are not motivated enough to find the forum at the moment; with greater visibility, the more chance that they will notice it, enter, and post, all of which are unfortunate for the people here more often than not, as the majority of people will not be interested or motivated enough to make a true effort, which is more of what is required than intelligence or anything else.

Finally, another apology if I am just repeating what other people have been saying. Really, tell me. NK only pointed out one thing, so I am sure there must be others.

 

[Terrance888]

I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to say anymore; please clarify.

------------

Sadly, this has been brought up before, repeatedly. And once again, people seem to underestimate the capacity of the human mind. Players who are stupid will either be barred from the forums by continued spamming, or they will be incompetent and their nations will not do as well. Therefore, they will weed themselves out.



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I totally agree with that... look at Nuke Nes as Ethiopia .

 

[Birdjaguar]

Honestly, what is up with this "oh, the other people will ruin our party!" Such rampant xenophobia! Everybody started out new sometime. I don't think there are very many people who would purposely come in here and randomly spam things up for malicious purposes. I think the problem is that they're budding NESers who aren't completely sure of what they're doing and just need a mod to be nice and show example orders and who won't let them play huge powerful countries and players who will help them out. Sure, maybe some of them can't type for beans or perhaps spam a bit much, but we can work on their social skills. You can't deny their enthusiasm.

I've only seen it once when Fifty and Perf tried it last year. They failled. After a brief and lively spam fest they were shut down.

 

[LightFang]

I've only seen it once when Fifty and Perf tried it last year. They failled. After a brief and lively spam fest they were shut down.

I was rather hesitant to name either Fifty or Perfy but rest assured, they were the examples I was going to use.

Plus, if you think about it, if we move to a place where we'll get more coverage, a mod will come with it and that'll cut down on the spam by a ton.

 

[North King]

I apologize for that, then. Still, even if they are weeded out, a constant influx of new people from greatly increased visibility will mean that, as they are weeded out, new people will enter, rendering your point moot.

We probably won't get successive tidal waves of new players. At most, only one (at the time of the actual move); after that, I couldn't see any surges unless Sid Meier releases another couple games. Furthermore, if we get a dedicated moderator, spammers will be exterminated fairly quickly.

Everything you say is true, but it is fairly easy for one person to destroy an NES for a period of time and, as I state above, a constant influx of such people will ruin an NES over a much longer period of time. The only purpose of greater visibility is to achieve such an influx, which would be more than capable of ruining multiple NESes because of additional people.

No, the purpose of moving is to get a constant influx of people who genuinely want to play.

I honestly don't see a way someone could ruin an NES unless they were particularly subtle and crafty about it, which most spammers are most definitely not. Seriously, they either screw up in their first post, or... what? They act intelligent but are really idiotic at heart? I don't see it.

This is why I suggested recruitment. If we really need more people, we can always go out and find some, most of which will be decent NESers.

There's a limit to that; if we want a lot of new players, it's not the way to go.

I do not believe any person would intentionally come in with the intent to destroy a thread that others enjoy and, even if there are such people, they would be few and far between. I fear the stupid, the dull, the noncommittal, and their ilk much more, and it is these people who we will find many more of when we become more visible.

These sorts are not motivated enough to find the forum at the moment; with greater visibility, the more chance that they will notice it, enter, and post, all of which are unfortunate for the people here more often than not, as the majority of people will not be interested or motivated enough to make a true effort, which is more of what is required than intelligence or anything else.

I really don't see how someone who's stupid, dull, or noncommittal could last any reasonable length of time.

 

[sp1023]

What Abaddon's trying to say is that more people in a NES doesn't necessarily lead to more players per NES but rather just more NESes with small numbers per NES. And he's also arguing that mods can't handle an increase in player size and that what we have right now is optimal.

Of course this argument is bunk because nobody said that there had to be NESes with increasing player size, only that, with a move, it'd become possible, which is a lot better than impossible, as the situation turns out to be right now.

Honestly, what is up with this "oh, the other people will ruin our party!" Such rampant xenophobia! Everybody started out new sometime. I don't think there are very many people who would purposely come in here and randomly spam things up for malicious purposes. I think the problem is that they're budding NESers who aren't completely sure of what they're doing and just need a mod to be nice and show example orders and who won't let them play huge powerful countries and players who will help them out. Sure, maybe some of them can't type for beans or perhaps spam a bit much, but we can work on their social skills. You can't deny their enthusiasm.

I'd love some of that.

 

[Abaddon]

I tried. An you have a chance. Its this constant spamming that is your failure. As is that very post. Why do you not read through a thread, or even try to address it on topic?

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I do not think there is any concern of spammers, they are easily dealt with (except sp who treads the line very precariously)

 

[Fuschia]

We probably won't get successive tidal waves of new players. At most, only one (at the time of the actual move); after that, I couldn't see any surges unless Sid Meier releases another couple games. Furthermore, if we get a dedicated moderator, spammers will be exterminated fairly quickly.

Most likely. There is always the possibility that we will get many waves of payers, and the first wave is still enough to sink at least a few decent NESes. We are fine where we are, and I do not believe we should move unless we truly start to die out, which I do not see happening at the moment.

No, the purpose of moving is to get a constant influx of people who genuinely want to play.

I meant result, not purpose. A little mistake on my part. There certainly are other possibilities, but I believe that to be the one that most illustrates a good reason for staying where we are.

I honestly don't see a way someone could ruin an NES unless they were particularly subtle and crafty about it, which most spammers are most definitely not. Seriously, they either screw up in their first post, or... what? They act intelligent but are really idiotic at heart? I don't see it.

I really don't see how someone who's stupid, dull, or noncommittal could last any reasonable length of time.

They won't stick around; they will be dumped first chance any Mod gets. However, intermittent waves of these people would be enough to cause a rather large number of NESes to fail in a short period of time which, in turn, causes the real players to lose interest, causing a fall in membership. Again, we are safe here and at risk elsewhere.

There's a limit to that; if we want a lot of new players, it's not the way to go.

We don't really need lots of new players. Every NES I can think of at the moment has a good number of players, and only the most dedicated of Mods would be able to handle more than 20 or 30 players for any amount of time, and those would all have to be committed players for the Mod to continue his own interest in the NES.

I do not think there is any concern of spammers, they are easily dealt with (except sp who treads the line very precariously)

Exactly the kind of player we don't need 5 or 10 of. No offense, sp. You're a fine player, you just post too much.

 

[sp1023]

Ok. Ok. I have heard this repeatedly, and I am cutting down on the spam.

However, what do you consider spam?

(I am pretty sure this post is one.)

 

[LightFang]

I'd love some of that.

You need to stop spamming so much, love.

For example: The Status of NESing: Location Thread. Symphy's already moved the entire discussion to this thread. There is absolutely no need for you to continue posting in that thread. The only rationale I can imagine behind your actions is this dialogue that's reverberating through your mind even as you think of a response to my post:

If I post a lot, my post count will go up.
If my post count goes up, that implies that I've been here a while.
If I've been here a while, my opinion will have weight.
Therefore, I must post a lot.

There are plenty of nice mods. I remember when I started, dragged here by a certain girl, I started off in Iggy's LINESII. Iggy's one of those guys who is exceptionally nice and willing to help new people. So I politely started a dialogue with him and he helped me get on my feet, even sending me an example of orders that I still use as a template to this day. If you're courteous, people will be willing to help you. If you at least show us that you have some semblance of knowledge of social skills, I'm sure that nobody will pick on you. I'm sure we've politely asked you to stop spamming in the past. But you keep on doing it. But once you improve, it'll go away. I don't think people would dwell on the past. You might get jokes about being Sir Spam-a-Lot after the fact, but they probably won't be serious.

But regardless! Stupid, dull, and noncommittal people wouldn't survive. First off, a mod would probably (hopefully kindly) direct them to smallish countries so that should they send terrible orders, which is entirely possible and not a black smirch on their intelligence, it wouldn't be too bad. A mod would also probably advise the person on how to fix errors. Stupid people would ignore the advice and be cut. Noncommittal people would drop out and, as the country was insignificant anyway, the NES would suffer, yes, but it wouldn't die.