On Moving or Staying

[jalapeno_dude]

Per Symphony's request, as I don't have much to say about this I will stay out of the discussion from this point forward unless I have something to add.

I would, however, like to express my support for moving, as 1) I don't see how it can lead to a significantly negative change (we're all perfectly capable of ignoring spammers) and 2) there are significant possible benefits (a real modern NES would be great; better than that, though, would be the presence of a moderator, which I'm growing convinced we really do need).

 

[Reno]

Now I'm going to give you my sum opinion.

*SNIP*

Staying carries no immediate and realistic risk, and is stable, but stagnant.

Moving carries no immediate and realistic risk, and is stable, but growing.

We are not gaining members. We are maintaining a roughly consistent number. That number is not sufficient to run more advanced games. This number has not increased in my three years of participation. There is no validity to the notion our community is growing. We are simply cycling equivalent numbers. It is not broken in that respect, but it is stagnant.

There is no realistic reason to fear some sort of horde of n00bs charging over the horizon like a Mongol horde unless you believe they have a malicious logic built around the intentional destruction of this past-time. If they do not fit in, they will not be integrated, they will lose interest, and they will leave. That is human behavior. Failing that, moderators can be deployed--and by the way, they don't pay attention here as much as they should, and that is not a good thing in most instances, despite what some of you may think. You want the Wild West, go to *****. There is no reason to believe that n00bs would come in greater proportions than they already do. The issue of greater numbers period and orientation is an issue, but not an insurmountable one through the establishment, expansion, and refurbishment of institutions such as the Wiki, Guide, training NESes, mentoring, and so on. It would simply require greater input and a more diversified carrot-and-stick approach.

There is no realistic premise behind the fears of "data loss" or "work." Thunderfall changes where the URL is displayed on the main forum. You don't have to twitch a muscle or fire a single neuron. You're doing more work by arguing the point than you would have to if a move were settled.

There is no realistic risk of instability. If all that changes is where the link is displayed, how are we destabilized? We remain here. We are not thrown into disorder before having to deal with a (presumably) increased number of arrivals. There is therefore no instability.

There is no realistic reason to fear radical changes to our community. Change will happen regardless of whether you want it to or not. That's life. If you're here to affect that change and guide it, why should you be concerned? Some of you are worried about it occurring here, but most of the same of you have no qualms about spreading our hobby elsewhere where it will inevitably mutate out of control and become alien. I fail to see the logic.

So the question it really boils down to is: do you want to see more people, or not?

I do, because I like the prospects they enable for running a more diversified suite of settings, and in filling out existing genres of games.

My own opinions exactly, bolded the parts that I'd stress personally.

If a coherent argument here on this issue can be mantained, we might finally get a closure on it one way or another. The previous threads on this subject have pretty much denegrated from reasonable argument to something resembling a shouting match, so I'm glad that has not hapened to this one. Also, the main arguments that have been previously presented in older threads for both sides have been clearly summarized in the OP, so that there's no useless repeating of what's already been posted.

 

[Thlayli]

Cheers for making this thread, Symph, which is a good indirect result of my more..."unstructured" attempt.

Since all of the good arguments have already been delineated, I'd only add one point: The appointment of a moderator specifically for the NESing forum would solve most of the potential "quality" problems that increased traffic would present.

Again, I'd put Reno or Gelion forward as candidates, both "retired" NESers that have continued to involve themselves in the forum's organization. (Through the Notice Board and NESing Guide, respectively.)

 

[Luckymoose]

I didn't read much of this thread, beyond the first post as I have lack of time today. But the most important thing I think would come from a larger player base would be the ideas to improve. We already do amazingly, but think of a difference more input would make and how NESing would change.

 

[Oruc]

Cheers for making this thread, Symph, which is a good indirect result of my more..."unstructured" attempt.

Since all of the good arguments have already been delineated, I'd only add one point: The appointment of a moderator specifically for the NESing forum would solve most of the potential "quality" problems that increased traffic would present.

Again, I'd put Reno or Gelion forward as candidates, both "retired" NESers that have continued to involve themselves in the forum's organization. (Through the Notice Board and NESing Guide, respectively.)

We don't need our own moderator, especially not an actual neser.

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[alex994]

Despite having not posted in any of the other threads dedicated to this topic (it's been like what? 3 or 4?), I have to say that most of everything that I wished to say has already been stated by either symphony, das, north king or birdjaguar (about the newer players). And for my opinion: "You don't know it doesn't work until you try it."

 

[TerrisH]

I am pretty much for the move, for the Reasons of M1, M3, M4, and S3. yes, I consider S3 a reason in favor of moving. I doubt it will be a major change to the forum, but I can see simpler and less realistic NES once more appearing in larger numbers, as they are easier for newbie NESer's to play. As I Like the slightly unrealistic NES with looser rules then the restrictive, very rule bound NES's that are becoming more and more common, this would be a good thing to me. I do not like these very realistic NES very much. they are good games, and I do enjoy them when I play, but I find the less restrictive NES's more fun and enjoyable.

 

[MjM]

I'd like to change my position; a move would most likely be in our best intrests. The arguments against it are weak, and only benefits could arise it seems. More players is always better. Moving seems like it is the right move.

 

[Israelite9191]

I think we're approaching this debate the wrong way. Arguing over the "goals" of the community is not getting us anywhere, it is merely leading us in circles of (sometimes vicious) attacks and counterattacks.

Rather, he's what I would propose. I would assume that just about everyone will agree that for most of our history we have maintained a very good balance between getting enough people to join and not having so many new people join as to overwhelm the community. However, as some have pointed out, this is gradually coming to an end. By staying in the Civ 3 forum while most activity on CFC has moved to Civ 4 has certainly placed us in a very different position. If we simply move ourselves over to the Civ 4 Stories and Tales subforum, we could very well recover almost precisely the position we had before.

 

[Abaddon]

Ah, but then the question is asked why move there? It is merely treading water when we could move to our own section and actually get some where. An I only see potential benefits with us getting there.

 

[Israelite9191]

We have not been "treading water" for most of our existence. Up till post-Civ 4 we were thriving in our position. If we can recreate that situation, I am certain that we will again thrive.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I would like to submit that becoming a more visible forum could tie in with getting a moderator of our own. With some of the statistics we've collected (around 6% of all CFC posts are in this forum), I think we can do that. This should cut down on the spam and flaming considerably, I think.

I still have traumatic memories from the time that Turner declared that animal stories were spam, and closed LINESII... it's really that which prevented me from reporting things later on.

I'm still trying to make up my mind.

 

[Abaddon]

I am against a Moderator, we do well enough and can always report things if they get out of hand.

 

[Israelite9191]

Moderators, in general, just make the community less cohesive. I do remember one conversation a long time ago that involved a lot of blatant racism/anti-Semitism when I would have really appreciated the increased presence of a moderator, but other than that I think the amount of moderator involvement that we have had is optimal.

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I think we're approaching this debate the wrong way. Arguing over the "goals" of the community is not getting us anywhere, it is merely leading us in circles of (sometimes vicious) attacks and counterattacks.

Rather, he's what I would propose. I would assume that just about everyone will agree that for most of our history we have maintained a very good balance between getting enough people to join and not having so many new people join as to overwhelm the community. However, as some have pointed out, this is gradually coming to an end. By staying in the Civ 3 forum while most activity on CFC has moved to Civ 4 has certainly placed us in a very different position. If we simply move ourselves over to the Civ 4 Stories and Tales subforum, we could very well recover almost precisely the position we had before.

IIRC, other than my post there has been no mention of goals or what those goals are. The talk has been mostly about what might happen if we move and if those results are desirable. Moving could be considered a "goal", but it really is just a lstep in achieving a higher level end.
A simple model:

Goals: 1-3 high level end points
Strategies: 1-2 paths of action for each goal
Tactics: 2-3 measureable actions that support each strategy

Moving the forum would most likely be a tactic.

 

[Terrance888]

Goal: Stay or leave
Strat: Civ4 story, other games; stay
Tactics: ???

I leave
a. Civ4 story forums
b Other games
II stay
a stay!

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[Abaddon]

false misdirecting error in stats