One Man's Terrorist Is Another Man's Freedom Fighter

Not calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist reflects poorly on me? Okay.

:rolleyes:Yeah that's what I quoted. No the bit about armies being the same as terrorist reflects poorly on you. Disingenuous? Since you forgot what we were talking about I'll quote it.

No, but I can show you where basically any army has made mistakes -- er -- commited acts of terrorism.
What was that you were saying about being disingenuous? Not only that statement but top quote are bleeding over with disingenuousness.
 
What was that you were saying about being disingenuous? Not only that statement but top quote are bleeding over with disingenuousness.

Er, you were implying that any action with avoidable civilian loss was terroristic. I responded by saying that would include damn near every army ever.
 
Er, you were implying that any action with avoidable civilian loss was terroristic. I responded by saying that would include damn near every army ever.

I implied nothing. You only inferred. Goes back to you being disingenuous again. You have had a real problem with that in this thread.
 
I implied nothing. You only inferred. Goes back to you being disingenuous again. You have had a real problem with that in this thread.

Well if I inferred something you thought that didn't exist then I appologise.

I will say this again though: Nelson Mandela is not a terrorist.
 
Look folks, this is getting stupid.

Nelson Mandela formed and led a militant/terrorist organization. He himself admits to human rights violations in the killing of civilians during that period.

Does that make him a terrorist? Technically, absolutely.

Thus precisely why he was probably on the watch list.

However, he is also in his mid 90s and has been a world renouned figure for almost the last 2 decades. Thus, it is probably safe to pull him off the list.

The 'error', if it indeed was even really an error, is one easily fixed - but given the fact of his and the MK's own terrorist acts fighting against the South African Government, it should be perfectly understandable why he was on the watchlist to begin with.
 
A book on the apartheid. My impression was the ANC wasn't as bad as you just said. Granted it's not a neutral book, but I guess that means I'll have to find a Nationalist-slanted book.
Believe me, it's exceptionally hard to find a good book that's neutral on the subject. One of the best that I've found is one called The Apartheid Handbook, it has a lot of facts and figures dealing with the important domestic issues in South Africa.

The book really puts things into perspective. For instance, wage disparities between whites, blacks in the townships, and blacks in the homelands were declining steadily from the 1970s to the mid-1980s.

One of the most terrible ironies of the post-independence African debacle is that African countries all severed their ties with South Africa. South Africa had lots of capital, a well-educated white workforce, a large black industrial and mining workforce, solid infrastructure... and what did the African "majority-rule" (most of those countries would at one time be led by one dictator or one-party state) countries do? They blockaded South Africa. Who did that hurt? It hurt South Africa, which meant that it hurt the blacks who were 70% of the population.

It also hurt their own countries, so they're piss poor and starving to death to make a statement against whitey. Then, some of those countries latched on to the tits of the Soviet Union (Ethiopia) and look what happened; despite receiving hundreds of millions of dollars in aid every year, a million people were starving to death. 400,000 Angolans fled to South Africa and South West Africa during the first five or so years of the civil war. 200,000 people from Mozambique also crossed the border. Yet at the same time, how many South Africans moved to Lesotho, Angola, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique, and the rest of Africa combined? Less than 30,000.

He refused out of principal, not because he didn't wish to enter PW's contract.
Yes, but that principle was to keep putting bombs under the counter at the department store, not to fight the South African Army.
 
As I understand it about the worst thing Mandela ever did was blow up an electricity pylon, or something equally unmemorable. He'd already been in prison for years when the ANC started getting more violent.
 
Well if I inferred something you thought that didn't exist then I appologise.

I will say this again though: Nelson Mandela is not a terrorist.

No he is your "freedom fighter". We get that. You can't bring your self to admit the obvious. Its hard to admit when your heroes aren't exactly all perfect shiny happy people. You are no different then the MLK and Lincoln whoreshipers. You will deny and excuse and explain away every detail that doesn't make you hero perfect.
 
Skad, all he's said is 'mandela is not a terrorist'. Quit with the frothing hyperbole willya. :rolleyes:
 
I think he is a freedom fighter. He already paid for his crimes in prison. Take him off the God damn list.
 
As I understand it about the worst thing Mandela ever did was blow up an electricity pylon, or something equally unmemorable. He'd already been in prison for years when the ANC started getting more violent.
No, the MK was founded before Mandela was in prison; Mandela was one of the founders. The Rivonia Trial didn't even start for another two years.
 
wait, we judge him for using guerilla tactics...when the US did the exact same thing to win the revolutionary war?

and i'm willing to bet that every gov't with any sort of past with war has committed terrorist acts.
 
wait, we judge him for using guerilla tactics...when the US did the exact same thing to win the revolutionary war?

and i'm willing to bet that every gov't with any sort of past with war has committed terrorist acts.

Guerilla tactics are not terrorist tactics.
 
No he is your "freedom fighter". We get that. You can't bring your self to admit the obvious. Its hard to admit when your heroes aren't exactly all perfect shiny happy people. You are no different then the MLK and Lincoln whoreshipers. You will deny and excuse and explain away every detail that doesn't make you hero perfect.

Mandela is not my hero, nor has he ever been. I think he's an admirable guy.

My hero, lame as it sounds, was/is my father. I'm well aware that he was not perfect.
 
Skad, all he's said is 'mandela is not a terrorist'. Quit with the frothing hyperbole willya. :rolleyes:

So a terrorist isn't a terrorist despite being a terrorist. That makes him a "freedom fighter" then. I'm not frothing. I'm also not excusing a terrorist for his terrorist actions like being the head of a terrorist group.
 
Mandela is not my hero, nor has he ever been. I think he's an admirable guy.

My hero, lame as it sounds, was/is my father. I'm well aware that he was not perfect.

Yet you excuse and explain away his actions. And can't bring your self to admit the truth. I'm glad you can admire him. I don't admire any terrorist leader but that's just me.
 
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