one reason why israel is so good at Propaganda

[Timsup2nothin]

That's not the question. The question is whether such are performed with the intent of killing civilians.

Maybe. The details of international law that could be debated on the subject aren't endless, but there's more than a few.

So, my idea is to move on. Maybe this one isn't a crime and maybe it is. Maybe the hospital shelling wasn't a crime and maybe it was. Maybe the third UN school shelled was an accident and maybe the sixth one shelled was defensible as a military objective somehow. Maybe spraying entire neighborhoods with unidentified smelly stuff isn't technically 'group punishment' so it isn't a crime. Etc, etc, etc, and every case can be a subject for a rousing debate.

The issue remains that in every case whether it is a crime or not the result will be the same, because even if it is fairly, logically, and even officially recognized as such there will be no consequences. And after suffering no consequences Israel will conduct itself in the future as if it were not a crime even if it was.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That's not the question. The question is whether such are performed with the intent of killing civilians.

There's more than "a question" here. There's a host of questions.

For instance, are such actions performed with the knowledge of a definite likelyhood of killing civilians?

Are the actions performed worth the risk of killing civilians?

Does the excuse: It's all Hamas' fault, also excuse one of consideration?

There's loads more. Mind you I am not asking these questions to have an argument with you at this time, just that it's a little more elaborate than merely focussing on intent.

 

[useless]

Israel's infanticide continues: http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/gaza-baby-born-to-mother-killed-in-airstrike-dies-1.1365645

The baby girl who was born to a mother killed in an Israeli air strike in Gaza has died, dashing the hopes of Al Shaikh Ali and Qanan family. The baby girl who was named after her dead mother, Shayma'a.

Sources in Gaza told Gulf News that the tragedy of two families in Gaza did not end with the death of the 23 year old Shayma'a in the Israeli air strike. It continued when another family received her body by mistake from the morgue and buried it. And now with the death of the baby the family is completely shattered. At the time the successful birth of the girl was announced, the families hoped the little girl would grow up to remind them of her mother and be a symbol of the brutality of the Israeli aggression on the innocent Palestinian civilians.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

CFC's blatant disregard of terminology does too!

 

[kochman]

CFC's blatant disregard of terminology does too!

I love you more every day, Zig.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Useless has posted the answer to the question posed by this thread, it just needs a little explaining...

That photo, meme, and story, were that an Israeli child, would not be on some backwater Civ forum (yes I'm sure it's getting plenty of play elsewhere), it would be riding a wave of promotional 'investment' onto every desk in front of a congressman or senator, with a demand that they rouse their constituency lest their constituency be roused against them.

In short, the answer is money and the access it buys that makes the Israeli propaganda so effective. Of course everyone already knew that, which is why this thread immediately became just an echo chamber for the other Israel/Palestine threads.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I wasn't going to do this, because it's more than likely to be concieved as confrontational, while this is not my intent. I can even understand why it would be seen that way, so if it is, I apologize beforehand.

Useless, your post really disturbed me. But not for the reasons you might think. This is a gutwrenching sickening heartbreaking story. There is so much grief there it's palpable. And you decide to accompany that story with that comment.

In effect reducing the tragedy to a mere argument. Ammunition to use against those who disagree with you. Of course this is not your intention, but this is what this conflict does to people. I also am very disturbed by using casualty figures in the argument. Oh, good. Another 100 died. This strengthens my case.

Now I want to reitterate that this isn't because you're some cold-hearted bastard. You most certainly are not. I am not saying what I discribed there is your actual thought process. It's not. But I do suspect some of us have had similar unconscious thoughts when reading about such a thing and then wondering how this best can be used in an online discussion you're having. I could have picked many other posts as example, but this one did stand out because it really did get to me.

Such a story should not be accompanied by an accusation. It should be accompanied with a question. Is it all worth this? A question devoid of the matter who is to blame, because frankly, who cares? Is appointing blame worth more than that girl's life?

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe determining blame is most important to bring the guilty party to justice. Never mind it will be through many years of many such cases.

 

[useless]

I understand why you take issue, but there are people who support Israel who literally don't seem to understand that Israel's actions result in the death of hundreds of people and continued misery.

The fact is that Israel has killed children and there are those in this very thread (as well as the forum) who continue to justify the deaths under the pretext that hamas is bad and therefore it's okay to stoop to their level.

I guess in my own defence i was getting frustrated, certain individuals here have stated that at somepoint the death total becomes difficult to empathise with due to the sheer number of dead. I just wanted to show that the dead aren't simply numbers, but i understand how it came across as insensitive or wanting to score points.

 

[tetley]

Another reason Israel gets good at their propaganda: because they keep running these live military exercises on hapless non-Jewish non-citizens in their country, and each time they both hone their military and get a feel for the media landscape. They've done it enough times. They're getting better at it. Experience paid for in blood. But not their own, so it's cheaper.

 

[Tee Kay]

I understand why you take issue, but there are people who support Israel who literally don't seem to understand that Israel's actions result in the death of hundreds of people and continued misery.

I think they do. They just don't give a damn.

Because one Israeli life is worth a thousand "Pallies"

 

[ThERat]

To me the current Israeli government is that of an Apartheid state. I think even South Africa (of the past) pales in comparison to what is currently going on in Gaza and West Bank.

I don't understand why the West has such double standards when it comes to Israel.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I think they do. They just don't give a damn.

Because one Israeli life is worth a thousand "Pallies"

Not to mention our school system and Hollywood media has already pretty much made it seem like Jews are the personification of victimhood.. and that alone generates plenty of sympathy for the Israeli.

 

[classical_hero]

There's more than "a question" here. There's a host of questions.

For instance, are such actions performed with the knowledge of a definite likelyhood of killing civilians?

Are the actions performed worth the risk of killing civilians?

Does the excuse: It's all Hamas' fault, also excuse one of consideration?

There's loads more. Mind you I am not asking these questions to have an argument with you at this time, just that it's a little more elaborate than merely focussing on intent.

I'll ask this question. Why aren't their more deaths considering that Israel has launched thousand of attacks on Hamas positions and each missile has the potential to kill hundreds at a time if aimed directly at civilian population centres?

But this thread just show how much Hamas is winning the propoganda war with some comments like "Israel is an Apartheid State", "Israel lives are worth 1,000 Palestinian lives". Both are comments of ignorance.

 

[Tee Kay]

Not ignorance sir, just careful observation of how the media and Western governments are treating all this; drawing an equal sign between the Israeli side and the Gaza side, when in fact, there is none. There is the strong and there is the weak.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'll ask this question. Why aren't their more deaths considering that Israel has launched thousand of attacks on Hamas positions and each missile has the potential to kill hundreds at a time if aimed directly at civilian population centres?

But this thread just show how much Hamas is winning the propoganda war with some comments like "Israel is an Apartheid State", "Israel lives are worth 1,000 Palestinian lives". Both are comments of ignorance.

Dude, do you get that 'well we could have killed more' or 'well they commit war crimes too' or getting in a hundred debates over the very fringe letter of the law to defend event after event as 'not quite a clear cut war crime case' is not a situation most countries get themselves into?

I know Israel is in a tougher spot than most, and the people have a tougher history than most, but that can only be ridden as an excuse for so far.

 

[Tahuti]

Not ignorance sir, just careful observation of how the media and Western governments are treating all this; drawing an equal sign between the Israeli side and the Gaza side, when in fact, there is none. There is the strong and there is the weak.

We should be thankful Hamas is the weaker side. As unjustified their acts may have been, what is perhaps worse about them is that there is nil redeeming value in what they intend to once they get their way.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

We should be thankful Hamas is the weaker side. As unjustified their acts may have been, what is perhaps worse about them is that there is nil redeeming value in what they intend to once they get their way.

To be honest it has been a long time since I've heard of any redeeming value hidden in Israeli intentions.

 

[Tahuti]

I expect that - even in the absence of this conflict - you'd rather live in Israel than in Hamas controlled territory which amounts to something.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I expect that - even in the absence of this conflict - you'd rather live in Israel than in Hamas controlled territory which amounts to something.

I'd rather live in a country that is clean, comfortable, and receiving all sorts of free gifts from governments around the world as opposed to a non-state that has been torn to shreds by the aforementioned country. That doesn't have any bearing on which country is more morally correct than the other.

I'll ask this question. Why aren't their more deaths considering that Israel has launched thousand of attacks on Hamas positions and each missile has the potential to kill hundreds at a time if aimed directly at civilian population centres?

I guess you expect the world to be thankful that they didn't pull off a bigger massacre than what it is now.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I expect that - even in the absence of this conflict - you'd rather live in Israel than in Hamas controlled territory which amounts to something.

I've said before, unequivocally, that if I was an Israeli I'd leave. Either restore whatever citizenship I gave up, try to return to where my parents came from, get a work visa somewhere, apply for refugee status...whatever.

If I lived in Gaza I'd undoubtedly be a terrorist, just because it seems like there's not much else to do and no particular way out.

As to preference...none really.