Only 30 Civs in base game (+ Shawnee)

[RedCourtJester]

They each have 7 packs listed (https://www.nintendo.com/en-gb/Game...eier-s-Civilization-VII-2637632.html#dlcItems)

Ah wow, that is a lotta packs. Okay, that will be interesting to see what all that means.

 

[Zaarin]

I know @Zaarin would love the Sydney Opera House to return.

As long as it comes 100% Australia-free, I'd be happy to see it return; it's a lovely building.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Now that you mention it, we haven't seen any evidence of wonders built after the 20th century, either? The latest would-be Eiffel Tower, right?
I know @Zaarin would love the Sydney Opera House to return.

The main building of the Dogo Onsen, which is the basis for the homonymous wonder's visuals, was finished in 1894, therefore later than the Eiffel.

Edit: Since we are on this topic, IIRC, when Civ 6 was released, only 4 wonders (Maracana Stadium, Sydney Opera House, Broadway, and Cristo Redentor) were built in the 20th century. Even with all the DLCs and updates, this number only increased to 8 (Biosphere, Golden Gate Bridge, Panama Canal, and the Amundsen-Scott Station).

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

The main building of the Dogo Onsen, which is the basis for the homonymous wonder's visuals, was finished in 1894, therefore later than the Eiffel.

Technically Stonehenge was only assembled in its current configuration by 1959, which is the inspiration for its visuals in all past games. Genuine representations of it at its peak would include wooden structures, and any representation before 1959 would have fallen stones.

 

[Xandinho]

Now that you mention it, we haven't seen any evidence of wonders built after the 20th century, either? The latest would-be Eiffel Tower, right?
I know @Zaarin would love the Sydney Opera House to return.

Palacio de Bellas Artes was opened in 1934.

As long as it comes 100% Australia-free, I'd be happy to see it return; it's a lovely building.

Edit. By the way, if Australia is included and its associated wonder is the Sydney Opera House, it would be quite strange to unlock it in the early Modern Age.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Palacio de Bellas Artes was opened in 1934.

Good call! Guess it fits the "20th-century opera house" slot for wonder in Civ 7.

 

[RedCourtJester]

As long as it comes 100% Australia-free, I'd be happy to see it return; it's a lovely building.

I actually do think that if we see Australia, under this "layers" idea the Sydney Opera House is a terrible waste of that opportunity to represent older aboriginal heritage in modern Australia.

I would peg the Opera House as being very likely to be a universal wonder on that basis, with Australia getting literally anything better if/when it is added. So you may be correct.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Good call! Guess it fits the "20th-century opera house" slot for wonder in Civ 7.

It is basically a "reconstruction" in the place of the old National Theater, however, the construction of which quite solidly can be placed in between the two Mexican Empires if I recall correctly.

Plus, again, it has Mayan revivalist designs. So it's really a great all-around representation of "modern Mexico" as well as what came before. Excellent addition, imo.

 

[Xandinho]

Good call! Guess it fits the "20th-century opera house" slot for wonder in Civ 7.

I don't know, I still think the Sydney Opera House will be added, even if Australia isn’t. It’s such an iconic monument as a modern wonder.

 

[8housesofelixir]

It is basically a "reconstruction" in the place of the old National Theater, however, the construction of which quite solidly can be placed in between the two Mexican Empires if I recall correctly.

Not every building that replaced something located in the same place can be considered the same building, and the two National Theathers are very architecturally different. If we took every "reconstruction" into account, then Dogo Onsen should be a 1st-Age Wonder, yet we know that it should be the corresponding wonder for Meiji Japan.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Technically Stonehenge was only assembled in its current configuration by 1959, which is the inspiration for its visuals in all past games. Genuine representations of it at its peak would include wooden structures, and any representation before 1959 would have fallen stones.

There is no consistency in the graphic representation of Wonders. Stonehenge apparently started as a completely earth and timber 'henge' with other structures, later (re)built in stone, later abandoned, finally 'rebuilt' for the Modern Age.

But, for example, if they used the Modern Age version of other Wonders, the Mausoleum, Colossus, Great Library and Pharos lighthouse wouldn't have any visible graphic representation at all, and we have only vague descriptions of what the 'peak version' of the Mausoleum, Colossus or Great Library looked like at all.

Consequently, I'm fine with using a graphic representation that is Distinctive, even if not completely accurate for all periods. The alternative would be either to change the graphics for each Age to represent situations that may or may not happen n the game, or simply leave out the majority of older Wonders for lack of any way to depict them to a consistent scheme of graphics.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Not every building that replaced something located in the same place can be considered the same building. If we took every "reconstruction" into account, then Dogo Onsen should be a 1st-Age Wonder, yet we know that it should be the corresponding wonder for Meiji Japan.

Well no, and I'm not really suggesting as such. Just that it adds to the "depth" of any wonder's particular heritage in this whole "history is built in layers" idea.

I think that's why Dogo Onsen was selected, because it reflects backward so well despite being a modern building. You can see that in a lot of the other modern wonders as well.

 

[8housesofelixir]

But, for example, if they used the Modern Age version of other Wonders, the Mausoleum, Colossus, Great Library and Pharos lighthouse wouldn't have any visible graphic representation at all, and we have only vague descriptions of what the 'peak version' of the Mausoleum, Colossus or Great Library looked like at all.

Consequently, I'm fine with using a graphic representation that is Distinctive, even if not completely accurate for all periods. The alternative would be either to change the graphics for each Age to represent situations that may or may not happen n the game, or simply leave out the majority of older Wonders for lack of any way to depict them to a consistent scheme of graphics.

One thing that I can understand but still bugs me a bit is that every single modern depiction of the Hanging Garden in games is wrong (in that it does not follow the descriptions and evidences we had in hand).

Diodorus Siculus literally quoted a physician who served in the Persian court that the Hanging Gardens was a terraced building that looked like an amphitheater; that is, it only had terraces on one side. Even the Assyrian Ashurbanipal gardens were terraced only on one side. Yet in every game possible the Hanging Gardens would be a Ziggurat.

 

[RedCourtJester]

One thing that I can understand but still bugs me a bit is that every single modern depiction of the Hanging Garden in games is wrong. Diodorus Siculus literally quoted a physician who served in the Persian court that the Hanging Gardens was a terraced building that looked like an amphitheater; that is, it only had terraces on one side. Even the Assyrian Ashurbanipal gardens were terraced only on one side. Yet in every game possible the Hanging Gardens would be a Ziggurat.

I think we might just call that Civ Series' own personal branding at this point lol?

 

[Zaarin]

One thing that I can understand but still bugs me a bit is that every single modern depiction of the Hanging Garden in games is wrong (in that it does not follow the descriptions and evidences we had in hand).

Diodorus Siculus literally quoted a physician who served in the Persian court that the Hanging Gardens was a terraced building that looked like an amphitheater; that is, it only had terraces on one side. Even the Assyrian Ashurbanipal gardens were terraced only on one side. Yet in every game possible the Hanging Gardens would be a Ziggurat.

Both the Hanging Gardens and the Oracle seem to be inspired more by Romantic and Orientalist paintings than by archaeology or contemporary descriptions.

 

[Leucarum]

But things like the player count being 5/5/8 for standard map sizes may point that there is something happening on modern age that results in more civs

That 5/5/8 split does feel weird with only 10 modern civs. That there might only be 2 civs not included once we hit the modern era feels strange to me. Are we missing some information here? Or is the modern era just gonna be really repetitive till we get some DLC?

 

[RedCourtJester]

I actually do think that if we see Australia, under this "layers" idea the Sydney Opera House is a terrible waste of that opportunity to represent older aboriginal heritage in modern Australia.

I would peg the Opera House as being very likely to be a universal wonder on that basis, with Australia getting literally anything better if/when it is added. So you may be correct.

Although, counterpoint to my counterpoint, if Australia is represented by colonialist rather than aboriginal heritage, the "white sails" would in fact be very in-line with a modern Australian civ. Sadge.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I think we might just call that Civ Series' own personal branding at this point lol?

The Hanging Gardens in Rise of Nations, Humankind, and Old World are also Ziggurats. It is just that the artists decided to stick with some orientalist paintings from the 19th century without checking the source text.

 

[RedCourtJester]

That 5/5/8 split does feel weird with only 10 modern civs. That there might only be 2 civs not included once we hit the modern era feels strange to me. Are we missing some information here? Or is the modern era just gonna be really repetitive till we get some DLC?

This is partly why I'm not holding myself to 10 civs per era. The game's design naturally suggests there will be more modern civs than antiquity or exploration civs. I think antiquity will always be locked at 5 based on the 7 wonders win-con (8-ish universal wonders plus 5 civ-specific wonders each game), but if there aren't any restrictions as harsh as that in exploration/modern, I could maybe see the game opening those eras up later. Maybe 8-10 in exploration, 12-15 modern?

The Hanging Gardens in Rise of Nations, Humankind, and Old World are also Ziggurats.

COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT I SAY! Heinous crimes.

 

[Xandinho]

I hope that Etemenanki returns as the associated wonder of Babylon, and that the Hanging Gardens remains disassociated.