Unlikely, the dev diaries shows they at least are confident and have solid reasons why they decided to go for age and civ transitions while keeping leaders.
Sure, what else should they say, of course the dev diaries are "confident"... Nevertheless I think they certainly have underestimated the challenges related with this decision, just look at all these discussions concerning the Maps (no more Pangea, TSL) or the acctual Gameplay implications (how or what does the AI choose as a new Civ).
"Oh, man, I really wish we'd sapped all the human interest out of our game instead of having a really good idea that would shake up the gameplay from previous titles!"
Very opposed to leader switching. I don't want my opponent changing their avatar mid-game; it disrupts one's connection to one's opponents. IMO leaders and the player's relationships to them are a strong part of Civ's brand identity, and it would have been a grave mistake to throw that out the window. (That being said, I think the devs' idea that players identify with the leader they're playing as is mistaken--I don't--but I do think the player's relationship with the other leaders is very important.)
Very opposed to leader switching. I don't want my opponent changing their avatar mid-game; it disrupts one's connection to one's opponents. IMO leaders and the player's relationships to them are a strong part of Civ's brand identity, and it would have been a grave mistake to throw that out the window. (That being said, I think the devs' idea that players identify with the leader they're playing as is mistaken--I don't--but I do think the player's relationship with the other leaders is very important.)
Of course people associate themselves and opponents with both leaders and civs. So it's important to keep at least one of those entities (one of the things Humankind does bad is having those generic leaders with their names rarely used in the interface). And if choosing which one to keep, keeping leaders is an obvious choice:
1. They are personalized and humanized, making it's much easier to associate with
2. Switching civs makes much more sense from gameplay point of view, if we consider units and buildings part of civilization identity
Still they really pooped the bed here. From this thread it looks like a lot of people who were excited about/defending the civ changing (myself included) are really feeling let down. No bueno man.
Of course people associate themselves and opponents with both leaders and civs. So it's important to keep at least one of those entities (one of the things Humankind does bad is having those generic leaders with their names rarely used in the interface). And if choosing which one to keep, keeping leaders is an obvious choice:
1. They are personalized and humanized, making it's much easier to associate with
2. Switching civs makes much more sense from gameplay point of view, if we consider units and buildings part of civilization identity
Not so obvious to me. Having to face a Napoleon who leads the Incas, that's something I can not relate at all with. But again, that's a matter of personal opinion, and this has been discussed over and over again in this forum. So Firaxis has made their choice, let's see if/ or how they are able to fix all the challegens that go along with this.
Very opposed to leader switching. I don't want my opponent changing their avatar mid-game; it disrupts one's connection to one's opponents. IMO leaders and the player's relationships to them are a strong part of Civ's brand identity, and it would have been a grave mistake to throw that out the window. (That being said, I think the devs' idea that players identify with the leader they're playing as is mistaken--I don't--but I do think the player's relationship with the other leaders is very important.)
For me, part of competition in Civ has always been the animus you develop towards other civilizations in the game. For example, in Civ VI, let's say I'm playing as France and am forward-settled by Germany. I develop a resentment of Germany and plot my revenge. Finally, when I build out my army led by the Garde Impériale, I finally enact my long-planned revenge against the Germans.
Personally, as a player, I don't really see my conflict as one against Barbarossa. I see it as a rivalry between France and Germany.
Further, in Civ VII, with civs detached entirely from their leaders, I may well (eventually) face Barbarossa of the Khmer/Mongols/yet-to-be-revealed-modern-age-civ which, again in my opinion only, pushes at the limits of suspension of disbelief.
Of course people associate themselves and opponents with both leaders and civs. So it's important to keep at least one of those entities (one of the things Humankind does bad is having those generic leaders with their names rarely used in the interface). And if choosing which one to keep, keeping leaders is an obvious choice:
1. They are personalized and humanized, making it's much easier to associate with
2. Switching civs makes much more sense from gameplay point of view, if we consider units and buildings part of civilization identity
I disagree completely. So far in this series, people have tended to describe themselves as playing a civ, and then tending to describe themselves as playing against leaders (though this is less strong). This is why people enjoy playing as Russia or as America rather than as Catherine or as Washington, but enjoy playing against Gandhi or Shaka.
Consistent leaders makes sense for AI, consistent civs makes sense for the player. At least historically in the civilization series.
For me, part of competition in Civ has always been the animus you develop towards other civilizations in the game. For example, in Civ VI, let's say I'm playing as France and am forward-settled by Germany. I develop a resentment of Germany and plot my revenge. Finally, when I build out my army led by the Garde Impériale, I finally enact my long-planned revenge against the Germans.
Personally, as a player, I don't really see my conflict as one against Barbarossa. I see it as a rivalry between France and Germany.
Further, in Civ VII, with civs detached entirely from their leaders, I may well (eventually) face Barbarossa of the Khmer/Mongols/yet-to-be-revealed-modern-age-civ which, again in my opinion only, pushes at the limits of suspension of disbelief.
I disagree completely. So far in this series, people have tended to describe themselves as playing a civ, and then tending to describe themselves as playing against leaders (though this is less strong). This is why people enjoy playing as Russia or as America rather than as Catherine or as Washington, but enjoy playing against Gandhi or Shaka.
Consistent leaders makes sense for AI, consistent civs makes sense for the player. At least historically in the civilization series.
I tend to see myself as civ and rivals as leaders, but if forced to choose between persistent leaders or persistent civs, I'd rather have persistent leaders so I can keep track of who I'm playing against and their mein and agenda don't fluctuate wildly from one part of the game to the next.
I disagree completely. So far in this series, people have tended to describe themselves as playing a civ, and then tending to describe themselves as playing against leaders (though this is less strong). This is why people enjoy playing as Russia or as America rather than as Catherine or as Washington, but enjoy playing against Gandhi or Shaka.
Consistent leaders makes sense for AI, consistent civs makes sense for the player. At least historically in the civilization series.
I totally agree. And that's exactly why Civ7 presents your leader on all diplomacy screens - to have strong association not only for opponents, but for yourself as well.
To clearify that: This disrupts your connection (and may be that of other civers) to your opponents, but not the connection of civers who don´t share that opinion about their opponents. The opponents for civers who don´t share this opinion are the other civs in the different phases of their evolution and the different leaders are only representing those civs.
I disagree completely. So far in this series, people have tended to describe themselves as playing a civ, and then tending to describe themselves as playing against leaders (though this is less strong). This is why people enjoy playing as Russia or as America rather than as Catherine or as Washington, but enjoy playing against Gandhi or Shaka.
Consistent leaders makes sense for AI, consistent civs makes sense for the player. At least historically in the civilization series.
This is how I view it. I think Civ 6 took it to the next step with agendas. Playing against Barbarossa's Germany was way different than how you played against Ludwig's Germany. Ludwig could care less about how many city-states I befriend.
Though to be perfectly honest, I'd have no problem with leader switching myself, at least for the player if that gets yourself new bonuses for your civ.
I don't think it's consistent whether in 6 I call a civ or its leader my rival. I think it depends on how distinctive a personality their leader conveys, as well as whether it's a civ with multiple leaders. I'm more likely to refer to Gilgamesh than Sumeria, but more likely to say Russia than Peter...
I tend to see myself as civ and rivals as leaders, but if forced to choose between persistent leaders or persistent civs, I'd rather have persistent leaders so I can keep track of who I'm playing against and their mein and agenda don't fluctuate wildly from one part of the game to the next.
I'd agree for who I'm playing against, but for myself the whole appeal of civ is picking say the Aztecs and playing them through from the start of history to today. I don't think the fabric of the series for me lends itself to either being changed mid game
And @stealth_nsk , to paraphrase Mean Girls, stop trying to make leaders happen. It just ain't it for me. I have no interest in larping historical individuals, I play civ to be the leader of the Greeks, not to be Alexander.
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