Optimization

Chazumi

Trained& Motivated Killer
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Finished reading a book by Arthur C. Clarke few weeks ago. Second time reading the series: Rama. Long story, and off the subject, but great read if you are into sci fi.

Anyways, in the book they meet an advanced alien race who millenia ago adopted a type of government referred to as Optimization. It did not delve too deeply into this subject but I thought it was a rather interesting concept and just wanted some input from you all to see what you thought (and decrease my boredom....)

Optimization is a form of government where everything done is optimized. You are born, with the proper authorization, to perform specialized tasks. Every day you perform this task until you no longer justify the resources needed to maintain yourself. After this occurs, you are given a notice to remedy this situation. If within the alotted time you are still not contributing enough to said society to justify what is being spent on you, you are scheduled for termination.

The "head" of this chain of command is known as the "Cheif Optimizer" whos specific duties were not made clear in the book, but overall is the ruler.

During war time, those whos profiles deem them suitable enough to defend the colony are submitted to several weeks of war training and then terminated a short time after victory, unless of course they are defeated. I may also mention that war only occurs after it has been determined that the threat of the entire colony is at risk, and all other diplomatic options have failed.

Another interesting characteristic of this form of government is that everyone still has free will up until a certain age. When you are born, the colony invests resources for your education and upbringing, and then at a certain age you are given two choices:

The first is to join the "Optimized" society, and begin learning what your special duties will be to obtain maximum productivity from you directed towards the colony. You will also be sterilized (painlessly :nuke: ), because it has been determined that sexuality is the driving force of every living thing and leads to undesireable traits such as aggression and so forth. In this optimized society your life would be very comfortable, as long as you are providing enough resources or something similar to justify your existance.

The second option is to be moved to an "Alternate Domain" where you will need to find your own way to survive. You will not be sterilized, or terminated before your time, but will not enjoy the many benefits of living in an "Optimized" society.

Anyways, I thought this sounded like an almost flawless form of government when I read about it the first time. I had forgotten about it until recently when I read the series a second time. I know that human behavior is unpredictable, and for us to adopt this form of government (at least in this day and age) would most likely be a total flop, but by god when I am ruler of the galaxy you all better be prepared to make your decision!

Let's hear your thoughts! And ask questions, I think I may have left a bit out from the book....
 
It sounds a lot like capitalism "If the product or service you provide is insufficient to get enough money to live, you will die".
 
I only support any form of dictatorship if I'm the dictator.

But I don't get why it's optimal to explore all diplomatic options? That's definitely not true.
 
Why wouldn't it be optimal to explore different diplomatic options? I'm sure it costs a lot less resources to settle an issue diplomatically than it would to pursue a war for several years...
 
Chazumi said:
Why wouldn't it be optimal to explore different diplomatic options? I'm sure it costs a lot less resources to settle an issue diplomatically than it would to pursue a war for several years...
Because if you're already that brazen about losing life of your own race/people, why are you concerned about the welfare of the others? I mean, if you're already killing all these people that aren't optimized for you society, what's the problem with nuking and killing others quickly? How can an advanced alien society not have that option? Unless it's MAD.

Spending resources (time, money, people, etc) to avert a war that might happen is not always optimal. Sometimes, it just makes sense to start/finish it because time is a resource you can never get back.
 
kingjoshi said:
Because if you're already that brazen about losing life of your own race/people, why are you concerned about the welfare of the others? I mean, if you're already killing all these people that aren't optimized for you society, what's the problem with nuking and killing others quickly? How can an advanced alien society not have that option? Unless it's MAD.

Spending resources (time, money, people, etc) to avert a war that might happen is not always optimal. Sometimes, it just makes sense to start/finish it because time is a resource you can never get back.

True, but the alien race that I am referring to in the book I might mention is already millions of years developed, and have expanded their empire across several star systems. I'm sure this is a relatively common problem and I would assume that each situation is looked at for the "optimal" solution.

I might also mention that the alien race that has adopted this form of government is almost 99% biological as far as their technology is concerned. What I mean by that is like....everything from their water fountains to their most advanced war machines are biological...they have almost complete control over the DNA of every living creature, and can alter it to serve a desired function. I don't think "losing life" is really a huge issue, I would think that by averting war they are attempting to suppress any recession/famine/rebellion that might happen afterwards... you have a valid point though king, I am just trying to play the devil's advocate.

EDIT: I missed some of your reply about why not just destroying anything that isn't optimal to the society, and I would think that with this specific alien race's ability to modify DNA it would be more "optimal" to incorporate that specific species into the heirarchy with modified genetics to serve a specialized purpose, rather than start or join a war to completely obliterate it. Of course I guess there could be instances when total destruction would be an optimal course of action...
 
El_Machinae said:
It sounds a lot like capitalism
Indeed, "Optimization" sounds like the government unnecessarily doing stuff (both good and bad) that the free market does without any help. The novel sounds like pseudo-intellectualism at its finest, although I'm sure I'm just, well, judging a book by its cover. ;)
 
WillJ said:
Indeed, "Optimization" sounds like the government unnecessarily doing stuff (both good and bad) that the free market does without any help. The novel sounds like pseudo-intellectualism at its finest, although I'm sure I'm just, well, judging a book by its cover. ;)

Could you give an example or two of what you mean exactly? I am having a hard time understanding the comparison between optimization and free market that I think you are trying to make...
 
Masquerouge said:
I think taht would only work in a resource-scarce environment. If you easily have more than you need, why optimize ?

Well, I would assume that under an optimized government there wouldn't be a super-overabundance of resources. Sure there are probably contingency plans and storehouses for emergency situations, but why would they have optimal citizens working to obtain resources that are already in good supply? I would assume a different task would be assigned. I guess I come up with that opinion from something I read in the book: (Not a quote) their birthing process wouldn't be like ours, where people hook up, intentionally or randomly bear a child. It is all planned, when the population reaches a "non-optimal" level, they would have a birthing stage and icrease their numbers for example, and I would guess that the same is true when referring to resources.
 
Reminds me alot of this movie
http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=trailer&id=1808404878


PrestonLG.JPG

"It's real"
"Burn it!"
 
Chazumi said:
Could you give an example or two of what you mean exactly? I am having a hard time understanding the comparison between optimization and free market that I think you are trying to make...
The free market is characterized by, among other things, increasing job specialization and personal responsibility (i.e., don't produce anything of value, and you'll die of starvation).

In "Optimization," the government seems to force specialization upon people and kill unproductive people, despite the fact that, again, this'll happen even if the government doesn't do anything (and of course, as history has repeatedly shown, governments tend to just screw everything up when they get too involved in people's lives, although I guess any good science fiction novel asks us to suspend our disbelief ;)).
 
Chazumi said:
Well, I would assume that under an optimized government there wouldn't be a super-overabundance of resources. Sure there are probably contingency plans and storehouses for emergency situations, but why would they have optimal citizens working to obtain resources that are already in good supply? I would assume a different task would be assigned. I guess I come up with that opinion from something I read in the book: (Not a quote) their birthing process wouldn't be like ours, where people hook up, intentionally or randomly bear a child. It is all planned, when the population reaches a "non-optimal" level, they would have a birthing stage and icrease their numbers for example, and I would guess that the same is true when referring to resources.

I actually thought of it the other way around, meaning you won't have the incentive to optimize unless you really need to make the best use of the few resources that you have.
 
Masquerouge said:
I actually thought of it the other way around, meaning you won't have the incentive to optimize unless you really need to make the best use of the few resources that you have.

Oh okay that makes a bit more sense. I'm sure for realistic purposes you are correct, that we would not develop and "optimized" form of government unless it was needed, as you suggested perhaps a lack of resources. In the book this is actually how they adopted their system, for millions of years they lived in similar government styles to our own, and once the population reached an unimaginable size, something needed to be done to correct all the corruption/overpopulation/lack of resources in certain areas and so forth... so I can see what you are saying.
 
Perfection said:
I'm still not getting what is optimized here. Happiness? Wealth? Breast size?

Almost every aspect of life pretty much. Unless of course you are living in the alternate domain....
 
I'm buying it sometime this week. Thanks for turning me onto it, Chazumi! :goodjob:
 
goldeagle said:
I'm buying it sometime this week. Thanks for turning me onto it, Chazumi! :goodjob:

Sure thing! You will have to tell me what you think when you are done. I can easily say this is one of my favorite sci-fi of all times.
 
El_Machinae said:
It sounds a lot like capitalism "If the product or service you provide is insufficient to get enough money to live, you will die".


:lol: It sounds like communism to me. :lol:

Although the OP says that you have free will, I, quite honestly, don't see much of it. You pretty much have been designed to perform a task and that is what you are gonna do, plus, you get nutted without asking permission because that is better for society.

When someone puts society over the individual -----> Hidden dictatorship, call it fascism or communism, same crap.

A lot of Brave New World ideas.

To the Opening poster:

* What is the title of the book? (Is it Optimized? it is not clear to me :( ) I don't recall reading this one from Clarke.
* The Rama series is very good, specially the first one.
 
@ Tenochtitlan - It reminds me too, and you are right there are many similarities.

@ Chazumi - Good choice with the Rama series. I read them a long time ago but they were thought provoking. :thumbsup:

The problem I see with an optimized society was the potential loss due to a sneak attack.

No 'warrior class' or standing military, so any war would have the potential to be very costly in terms of both initial losses by being unprepared, early losses by having a hastily rushed defensive force ('green' troops if you will) and long term losses to society because the transfers of those 'suitable' would be one-way and unable to ever return to their previous productions no matter how much expense was put into their initial training or how experienced or valuable they may have been at their previous jobs.

If races like humans exist in the galaxy it would always be a good idea to keep an eye on your neighbor and be prepared for the possibility of conflict.


EDIT - corrected typo.
 
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