Optimum Early Growth Strategy

[Raider]

I think this article makes way too many assumptions about the ease and predictability of the game and land layout that will simply not hold true, especially at higher difficulties. This analysis would have been fine for Sim City, for Civ4 it's just a math excersise not based in reality.

 

[tempuraki]

There's not one strategy that can be based on reality because reality is unpredictable, but a mathmatically based guide offers a good rule of thumb that will help getting a good start most of the time.

It's like when you are plotting the route to go to work every morning, you take into consideration of the distance, the most highway usage, etc. Or if you commute, you think about the number of connections, express train vs local train, etc. Sometime you run into traffic jams or stalling trains, that's when you deviate from your calculated plans and improvise, but for the most part, I think mathmatical analysis is important, as it helps me get to work on time.

Or I should say, helps me figure out when's the latest I can get up everyday, so I can then figure out how late I can stay up playing civ4

PS: Actually I think we do have a guide based on reality, and it's called the civfanatics forums, where you can find strategies aimed at almost every scenarios you encountered in the game

 

[owlshot]

When constructing Stonehenge. the scale automaticlly becomes very small on my screen. What's the fix?

 

[Xin Yu]

The situation is quite diffenent when playing deity, small, quick. The following are the numbers:

food box width to grow: 14, 16, 17, 18, 20 (2/3 of the standard)

production: warrior 10, worker 40, settler 67 (2/3 of the standard)

Chop trees: 13 shield before mathematics.

Since this is a small world, getting your settler out fast is the key in land grabbing.

This makes the worker first strategy not so good (you'll be late in grabbing lands). The following is somewhat the fastest when you have at least a 3- food square (flood land, wheat, corn) and another 3-production squire (this can be either a forest or a floodland) to work on.

grow to size 2 : 5 turns, meanwhile building a warrior.
halt warrior, start a settler for 10 turns, revolution to slavory.
Whip the settler.

Total: 5+10+1=16 turns (if a spiritual leader, 15 turns) and you have a settler. This is even faster than building a settler from the beginning, which requires 17 turns.

Then cancel the warrior and start a worker for a turn. This will put the overflow to the worker (+7). Then switch back to the warrior. After 5 turns the warrior is almost done (loses one production due to 10 turns of delaying) and the city grows back to size 2. Now switch to the worker for 3 turns and you can whip again. So on turn 25 you have a worker (and a warrior as well since you have two hammers overflow).

Compare to the worker first strategy:

Worker turn 10, chop 2 trees and a settler turn 21 (on a small map, should not go with the 2nd worker to further delay it). The warrior will only be half way done by turn 25.

The grow to size two strategy gains 5 settler turns, which translates into 5 worker turns and 5 growth turns. It loses 7 worker turns from the first city (does not count the 8 turns chopping time since the production has already been included into the settler). Also it starts to grow at turn 25 instead of turn 21. So the net is: loses 2 worker turns, gains 1 growth turn.

Other benefits for the size 2 first strategy: a warrior is built (production gain: 6 hammers), stays in a larger size longer (+ some commerce). Revolution turn already passed so there is a turn gained for non-spiritual leaders.

 

[MensSana]

My first post here, but I think this discussion is very enlightning.
I have recently started a game, and have been thinking what is the best way to start this gambit.
With the patch 1.52, you got a lot of production for cutting trees and it was a worthwhile thing to do, but with 1.61 and only initially 20PP, you have to chop down a lot of trees for Worker-Worker-Settler. These trees are also of great importance later on in the game when you want lumbermills, or just as early production. A hill with trees on a plain does give you a lot of production without any improvements. So the amount of chopping to me, must be limited with patch 1.61.
My current game is.....

1) Worker
2) Worker improve gold/gem/silver etc...(if available)
Gives me production as well as some currency/tech
3) chop Settler, but no more than 3 forest for 60PPs + city PP

.....what do you think of this?? Is this a viable strategy for early growth?

Because there must be a balance with 1.61 between chopping forest and saving forest for early production.

 

[Tesuji]

OK, I know I'm rather late to this thread but I simply didn't have time to play this game until recently. I did play a good amount of Civ 3.

I'm having trouble on Emperor and find it's mostly due to getting my second city out too late. (And later to protect them from barbs, but lets address one issue at the time.) So I turned to this article for answers. Unfortunately, I usually already get two workers out first if I can and use chopping to get there. Since the forest yield is 20 now (and I think 16 for squares one step further away) it has become a little more complicated.

I always play random Civ, so I don't always get to make two workers from go. I find that if I can get to Hinduism first I'll do so. If I have mining I go for BW while making a worker. If I don't have mining I usually make a warrior while researching mining. Only exception is when I have the technology and the nearby resources to use a worker from the start.

On Emperor I started to wait with the second worker and build a settler instead. I think this is faster. I also used to start out with making a worker first in my 2nd city, but then I soon have nothing to do for my workers that is immediately beneficial.

I'd like to see an extensive analysis like the original article, but based on the current yields.

Also, can someone point me to an article about optimal city/worker balance? For Civ 3 the ratio was 1 to 1.5 per city (I believe, it's been a long time). Now I find I have plenty with 0.5 per city.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[DaviddesJ]

Also, can someone point me to an article about optimal city/worker balance? For Civ 3 the ratio was 1 to 1.5 per city (I believe, it's been a long time). Now I find I have plenty with 0.5 per city.

I generally aim for 1 worker per city. But I think it's hard to generalize. You need more workers if you have a lot of jungle, or to a lesser extent forests. And also if you're expanding faster.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I generally play on Epic or Marathon, and am currently still at Noble diff.

One thing that should be factored in here is time it will take to research Bronze Working, as you cannot cut until you have BW. On Epic and Marathon settings, research time is increased, and I am sure that in some cases it may not be possible to have BW researched before 30 turns or more have gone by. Also, at Noble difficulty and higher it can be suicide to avoid building a military unit for any length of time. If your Civ starts with a warrior, you can place it in your first city to avoid losing it to barbs, but you will need to build another before you build your first settler. The problem with this though, is that you do not get to explore much, and this can reduce your options when trying to find a suitable spot for your 2nd city, and increase the number of barbs that harass you.

I quite often play civs that start with a scout though, so exploration is not a problem. The other good thing about starting with a scout at higher difficulty is that they always obtain positive results from huts, you won't have to worry about them turning into barbs. The bad thing is this means that I need to produce a warrior first to defend my capital, or if starting with a warrior, I need to research Hunting first to get scouts quickly enough to start exploring. In the latter case, this delays Bronze Working even more.

My normal progression at the start of the game is this:
Warrior, worker, warrior, settler, worker

Or you can play a custom game and turn off barbs, so that you don't have to worry about your military at the outset.

I tend to avoid cutting, except when improving a tile, this may be a result of the amount of time I spent playing the previous Civ games, and Alpha Centauri, in which clearcutting your natural surroundings seemed to be more detrimental in the long run. Of course, if you only cut early in the game, don't improve the tiles, and leave a few forests around, your forests can grow back over time. This can be effective, and I have used it in situations where I have alot of forest/tundra tiles on the extreme borders of my civ. I avoid planting any cities in the area, unless I need a certain resource there, and cut every other tile before leaving the area alone for a good long time. Once I return a few of the previously cut tiles have grown back, and I can cut them again.

If my civ starts with Mining and my first unit is Warrior, I know I can get to BW in time to build the Worker, so I do the Worker/Worker/Settler queue, and generally try to put City 2 near where it can work the Copper for Axemen to escort subsequent Settlers, protect cities and improvements, etc.; and then have the workers get that mined ASAP. After all that the workers split up to improving the tiles worked by cities 1 and 2. City 2 is usually a unit-generating city, and city 1 is usually a Settler-builder (due to the food resources the game usually gives to the initial build location). This means city 2 grows more so sometimes I have to send both workers there to improve more tiles, and if the Copper city has good food, so much the better for growth and mega-production early on.

It's a different challenge when I don't have Mining and/or if I start with a Scout. I compare the time to discover BW with the time to build a worker. IF the worker can be farming or otherwise useful while trying to get to BW, I'll continue on with Worker/Worker/Settler. If there aren't many choppable trees (and I normally try to leave 2 trees unchopped for each city, for the +1 health bonus which becomes deadly NOT to have late in the game when factories and growth are polluting the hell out of the empire), I'll go with just one worker and either chop or improve as opportunity allows, and if no chopping can rush the Settler, I'll spend some growth turns and get Warriors built for escort, defense, and exploration work in those turn. Or swap into a barracks or library queue if I don't need anymore Warriors.

Overall city spread policy, I try to REX it up old school, and just improve the commerce as much as I can to fund it so that it won't cripple the economy. I've found it's more successful to take the economic hit of growth and then let that investment return on growing cottages, gold mines, luxury and health resources, etc., later, than to stay small and try (usually without success) to keep up with the growth of the AIs who spammed cities all over the place and did so without penalty, and are now sitting on all the choice locations with Ivory, Stone, Marble, trade, luxury, and health resources, and are staring down at you with their multitude of armies to add your lands to theirs.

You have to build cities in SELF-DEFENSE, to deny resources to your enemies (which they all are, even if they claim to be a friend). That requires early growth, and not just blasting out the first city quickly, but blasting several out in succession, which means more chopping and improving, which means more workers.

 

[BrantleyL1]

As a noob, I'm still trying to figure out a lot of things... Sorry if some of this has been covered before in here, but it's kinda hard to go through a LOT of posts and find what I'm looking for....

This strategy (build Worker-worker-settler) kind of flies in the face of what I've read elsewhere. Which basically says that due to workers and settlers stopping growth, they should be delayed until the city grows to size 3.

Without knowing what I was doing, I had a little success basically doing this in the first games I played. So, I think I'll revisit this idea the next game.

But the article raises a couple of questions.

1) I'm assuming that you research Bronze Working first. (Is it available with all starting leaders?) (I'm away from my computer - how long does it take - less than the time to produce the first worker?)
2) So since you don't have Agriculture or Mining or Pottery (unless that leader happens to start with it) at this point, the chopping is just that - chopping. I assume that you come back in later and build tha farms/cottages.

3) Since you have not yet built a warrior, I assume that by the time you get through this process that Stonehenge is probably not within reach.

 

[A+ombomb]

There's not one strategy that can be based on reality because reality is unpredictable, but a mathmatically based guide offers a good rule of thumb that will help getting a good start most of the time.

It's like when you are plotting the route to go to work every morning, you take into consideration of the distance, the most highway usage, etc. Or if you commute, you think about the number of connections, express train vs local train, etc. Sometime you run into traffic jams or stalling trains, that's when you deviate from your calculated plans and improvise, but for the most part, I think mathmatical analysis is important, as it helps me get to work on time.

Or I should say, helps me figure out when's the latest I can get up everyday, so I can then figure out how late I can stay up playing civ4

PS: Actually I think we do have a guide based on reality, and it's called the civfanatics forums, where you can find strategies aimed at almost every scenarios you encountered in the game

Reality is quite predictable. That's why science exists.

 

[MrCynical]

This strategy (build Worker-worker-settler) kind of flies in the face of what I've read elsewhere. Which basically says that due to workers and settlers stopping growth, they should be delayed until the city grows to size 3.

This strategy assumes there's enough forest for the first (and later second) worker to chop to rush the settler. If you have little or no forest at your start site this isn't going to work, as you city will be locked at size 1. The first worker is still the best idea on those maps (except very occasionally for a work boat), but after that you need to build something else (military or maybe stonehenge) to give your city a chance to grow before you build more workers or settlers.

1) I'm assuming that you research Bronze Working first. (Is it available with all starting leaders?) (I'm away from my computer - how long does it take - less than the time to produce the first worker?)

Bronze working is always the best choice for first tech, if available. For many leaders it is available, but a few will need to research mining first, which is a disadvantage. It a lot of cases it will be done at around the same time as the first worker, but it depends too much on starting terrain and difficulty level to be sure of that all the time. You could mine something with it if the worker is finished long before the tech.

2) So since you don't have Agriculture or Mining or Pottery (unless that leader happens to start with it) at this point, the chopping is just that - chopping. I assume that you come back in later and build tha farms/cottages.

It's too early for cottages even if you did have pottery. Farming over the top of ordinary forest would also be a low priority even if you could at this stage. Best to stick to resource improvements before worrying about ordinary terrain.

3) Since you have not yet built a warrior, I assume that by the time you get through this process that Stonehenge is probably not within reach.

Again, would depend on difficulty level. Stonehenge is far from essential anyway.

 

[BrantleyL1]

Thanks for your thoughts, Mr Cynical....

I've learned a bit in the two months since I posted that!! I'm still playing at a lower level until I can get really good at it. I get KILLED on the GOTM games - paying at Monarch or Prince! Normal Speed.

My general strategy now - out of the box is:

Warrior. To protect city & accompany first settler.
Worker.
Settler.
Warrior. To replace the Warrior that is now accompaning the settler.
Stonehenge. (This seems to help the early culture and expansion of cultural borders.)

Meanwhile, I research Mining (if necessary), Bronze working, and Mysticism (if necessary - to build Stonehenge). Some leaders, you have to throw Agriculture in here early - to give worker something to do other than chop.

The worker is usually done a turn or so after I get BW and revolted to slavery. So he can chop or chop/farm the settler. The city never grows enough at this time to use slavery to finish the settler. With any luck (i.e. Forrests nearby), my worker can chop and contribute to stonehenge finishing quickly. And when it is not too costly, use slavery (whipping) to finish Stonehenge.

Meanwhile, I've been exploring. When BW is done, copper is revealed. Again, with any luck, it's either in the Fat Cross of the first city or nearby. Even if it's a crappy location, I will settle near copper. Next up, build another worker, mine copper & connect the two cities. If no copper yet, pick a GOOD location and settle city 2.

If NO copper, research (Iron working??) to reveal Iron. And continue exploring. At this point, hopefuly close, you've found either copper or iron. This is actually fairly likely. (Only one recent fractal map where I was stuck on a LONG peninsula did I not have one or the other close by.)

Once I've got copper or iron, start building LOTS of Axemen (some will be chopped, some whipped). Then go after the Barbs who will likely have set up a city nearby. Early barb cities are no match for 4 or 5 axeman.

That's what I've been doing in my early game. Please poke holes in it!!

 

[A+ombomb]

Bronze working is *not* always the best tech to pick first if available by any stretch of the imagination. It depends on game speed, first off, because on "quick" or "standard" you can get in bronze working by the time you'd use it after going for agriculture and/or animal husbandry first. On epic it's a little better to choose a bronze or pottery first approach to ensure your workers always have something good to do, and since revolution of 1 turn means less on those speeds and if you wait you will likely be wasting worker turns doing nothing (techs are slower relatively speaking).

 

[MrCynical]

@A+ombomb: Maybe true on low difficulty levels, if you're suggesting that that you'd have time to research another tech in addition to bronze working before the work on low difficulty. I suppose at low level, and if you start with mysticism you might be able to hit a religion tech first. At high level though tech is simply too slow compared to unit construction unless you've got seriously bizarre terrain (founded on a commerce resource with a usuable oasis maybe? - even so unlikely), to make it worthwhile.

 

[A+ombomb]

Well if it's a 6 food tile, you are getting +3 extra resources a turn which approximates to the same as chopping without using the forests, and without any food improves slavery is pretty marginal and can stifle your growth if overdone, not to mention the turn lost revolting if you aren't spiritual. On deity I would probably get pottery way before bronze working, even on quick speed, just because the tech is so slow, but taking out food improving is a bad idea.

 

[Freidenker]

Great article, ohioastronomy. One day I would like to estimate the benifits on early of traits like Imperialistic and Expansive.

 

[AccipiterQ]

so after the patching, and with BtS, is Ohio's original post still valid, or has it been completely nerfed by patching??

 

[L4zybugg3r]

I realise I'm way late on this thread. Nice article though.

I was wondering if (early game - say with 3 workers) it is better to have workers do separate jobs or work on the same tile improvement/forest chop?

I usually play marathon speed so I figure that the additional movement cost might not be such a big deal when compared with the earlier (single) improvement/chop. Also 3 workers seems to be ok worker stack as most things (on marathon speed) take a multiple of 3 turns to complete.

Also if a worker stack is moved between cities to improve tiles is it worth building a road to speed up the travel time? Any thoughts?

 

[vicawoo]

I realise I'm way late on this thread. Nice article though.

I was wondering if (early game - say with 3 workers) it is better to have workers do separate jobs or work on the same tile improvement/forest chop?

I usually play marathon speed so I figure that the additional movement cost might not be such a big deal when compared with the earlier (single) improvement/chop. Also 3 workers seems to be ok worker stack as most things (on marathon speed) take a multiple of 3 turns to complete.

Also if a worker stack is moved between cities to improve tiles is it worth building a road to speed up the travel time? Any thoughts?

You don't need to improve tiles faster than you can work them, so you can easily time one worker to finish up that 3rd mine in your capital.

Sometimes multiple workers are good for speeding up an early improvement in a second city or a just available strategic/wonder based resource.

Roads are low priority in many cases. If I'm going to move to a hill and I'm 3 tiles away, I'll move one tile and spend one turn building a road in a useful location and then move next turn, and finish up the road later.

 

[Sinatra]

hi all,

been forever since i posted.

i'm a bit nooby to advanced strategies... are you all saying that for any game speed, the first three things that your first city should build are:

worker, worker, settler

even though that means no growth for the first city?

is the idea that getting that second city quicker pays off in th long run?

also, this idea of switching the Q... r u saying you should tell your city to build a warrior or something, and then switch to worker/settler on the turn prior to them being built?

does that result in the city growing and no other penalty? don't other units take shorter build times? so what do you do then?

what i need is a step by step guide for dummies as to how you actually employ the strategy.