Oracle options and relative value

[Mantic0re]

Lately I've been getting the Oracle not because I'm really pushing for it but because it goes so late and I can win it with out a lot of effort. The tech is on the path to Monarchy which takes forever if you don't self research.

My typical choices are:

Metal Casting (672 beakers)
Code of Laws (522 beakers)
Currency (598 beakers)

Generally by the time the wonder is built I've researched Monarchy already so I didn't include it in the list. I rarely see Currency as an option because Alphabet isn't in before The Oracle is completed.


This leaves Metal Casting vs Code of Laws. I typically avoid state religion in the early game and don't find myself building the Colossus often. This reduces the choice really to Forges (production bonus) vs Delaying AI expansion by denying them Courthouses for a few turn.
If I'm desperate for Courthouses I've probably not spent the 150 hammers on a Wonder. TMIT commented in a LetsPlay that it takes almost 75 turns for a Riverside Cottage tile to break even with Colossus coast. While this is impressive, I have not developed the habits that seem to capitalize on this fact.

I'm too chicken to try and delay the build until a juicier tech is available and even if i was more daring I don't feel like my tech choices in this phase of the game are strong enough to warrant the gamble.


So the questions:
1) Say the chosen tech is roughly 500 beakers. How is this hammer:beaker exchange valued by Emperor + players? Do you find yourself pushing for the Oracle often?

2) Comparing Code of Laws to Metal Casting, I'm paying roughly 150 beakers of research to possibly delay and inconvenience the AI for some unknown time. Seems like a good deal to me but I'd like to hear from others. When do you take Metal Casting over Code of Laws and why?

3) Is the value of CoL as trade bait greater than the value of economically inconveniencing the AI?

Manticore

 

[btgwynn]

Metal Casting isn't really favored by the AI so makes for (maybe a little more) trading possibilities.

 

[Noogai]

How about feudalism?

 

[Capellan]

Don't overlook the value of founding Confucianism if you take CoL. Not because you want to adopt it yourself - but because you get a free missionary. You can get considerable value out of sending that missionary to a still-pagan AI to foster religious dissension.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

First of all, on higher levels you will rarely/never have monarchy researched before the oracle goes. And normally you won't self-research monarchy anyway, as it tends to be targeted early by the AIs. As to CoL, versus MC.

CoL:
- If your landmass is without religion
- If you need courthouses due to REXing
- If you are Organized (cheap courthouses)
- If you are planning to target CS early
- If you have Writing researched but not BW/Pottery

MC:
- If you're Industrious (cheap forges)
- If you're targeting Machinery for a Crossbow rush (or going the 'bottom path' for early medieval war in general)
- If you've researched BW/Pottery but not Writing.
- If you just want the best trade chip (highest beaker value and usually goes later than CoL)

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, which others will chime in.

 

[Noogai]

First of all, on higher levels you will rarely/never have monarchy researched before the oracle goes. And normally you won't self-research monarchy anyway, as it tends to be targeted early by the AIs. As to CoL, versus MC.

If you self-tech monarchy early enough you can oracle feudalism, which is more than 1000 breakers. I haven't tried it on deity, but it's not a problem on immortal or below (where most of the people are playing).

 

[Kreda]

Code of Laws is on the way to Liberalism as well, and it allows you to bulb Philo faster.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

If you self-tech monarchy early enough you can oracle feudalism, which is more than 1000 breakers. I haven't tried it on deity, but it's not a problem on immortal or below (where most of the people are playing).

That's true. I guess I just don't totally see why you would want to Oracle feudalism, as it's not all that useful early and you can normally get it easily in trade by the time you need it. Not really worth it IMO given that on higher levels it will require a beeline that delays expansion considerably.

 

[Noogai]

That's true. I guess I just don't totally see why you would want to Oracle feudalism, as it's not all that useful early and you can normally get it easily in trade by the time you need it. Not really worth it IMO given that on higher levels it will require a beeline that delays expansion considerably.

You can trade to anything or bribe wars with it. And it maintains its trade value for quite a long time. It also makes defending easy if someone rushes you.
It's not like you always want to oracle feudalism, but in some cases its a strong option.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

You can trade to anything or bribe wars with it. And it maintains its trade value for quite a long time. It also makes defending easy if someone rushes you.
It's not like you always want to oracle feudalism, but in some cases its a strong option.

Yes, but for a long time anything you could get by trading Feudalism you could get by trading CoL/MC. And LBs are nice, but they also cost a lot of hammers so I don't see it as much of a plus except in exceptional situations.

Not claiming it would never be a good option, just seems like it would be extremely rare. It's a pretty long slingshot, which costs in terms of expansion, but doesn't have anything like the benefit of getting early CS.

 

[prayandr]

don't forget that forges can also be excellent happiness buildings if you have access to gold, gems, or silver. I often find myself in situations where i have gold and gems (or can trade for one) which makes the forge an excellent building even before the hammer bonus is taken into account. So what luxury resources you have access to should also be taken into account when you are deciding.

 

[NuttyPenguins]

I'm not sure Alphabet, and Construction shouldn't both be considered as "strong" options on most difficulties..

 

[Noogai]

I'm not sure Alphabet, and Construction shouldn't both be considered as "strong" options on most difficulties..

What's wrong with oracling alpha? Usually you can even trade writing away if you get early alpha. If you're lucky you can bribe early wars with it.

 

[NuttyPenguins]

What's wrong with oracling alpha? Usually you can even trade writing away if you get early alpha. If you're lucky you can bribe early wars with it.

That's what I was saying. Alphabet seems like a great oracle tech. I must not have worded my first post clearly

 

[Noogai]

That's what I was saying. Alphabet seems like a great oracle tech. I must not have worded my first post clearly

Oh sorry, there was just something wrong with my reading (it happens when im tired).

 

[ABCDPuppies]

don't forget that forges can also be excellent happiness buildings if you have access to gold, gems, or silver. I often find myself in situations where i have gold and gems (or can trade for one) which makes the forge an excellent building even before the hammer bonus is taken into account. So what luxury resources you have access to should also be taken into account when you are deciding.

Ah yes I knew I was forgetting something important . This actually happens a lot too, since having gold or gems to boost early tech makes Oracling MC a lot easier and more feasible at higher levels.

I'm not sure Alphabet, and Construction shouldn't both be considered as "strong" options on most difficulties..

Agreed, Construction and Alpha are both strong in the right situation. (Although per noogai, the double negative was a little confusing .)

 

[NuttyPenguins]

Agreed, Construction and Alpha are both strong in the right situation. (Although per noogai, the double negative was a little confusing .)

Nothing wrong with using grammar to my advantage. Especially when those confused have such a huge edge in skill, like noogai. I need some edge in debates

I'll remember this for future posts though.

 

[vranasm]

Oracle is serious investment of beakers and hammers and has to be built very quickly (you basically have to almost beeline it from start).

On emperor it typically goes around 1400 BC mark. On higher levels sooner (but sometimes it can be much later...like for example right now in latest MS game where I get beaten to Oracle at 875 BC mark ;-)).

Sometimes it's a matter of luck and that's the reason why players usually avoid going Oracle without strong commerce in capital.

As to the options. I see here a lot of good suggestions!

On water maps it's basically almost always MC, because Colossus is such big king. On Pangea almost never .

I saw some impressive games with oracling Alpha if you can turn it into war havoc and techs from lower part of tree. And lately I saw Oracle->Constr with Ivory from Riflin' which is very good too.

One of strongest gambits is Oracle->Civil Service, which can be done with early library and bulbing Math and with very strong commerce tiles (right now I am not sure if you need CoL for CS too, but I think you do, so you have to selftech writing, oracle techs, CoL and bulb Math to open the gambit).

To the CoL, lately I think I wouldn't do it. I typically want to build Courthouses when the maintenance gets above 5 gpt, sometimes I even wait for 7gpt+. And founding religions depends on surroundings, if you are isolated, it's important to get, otherwise you will stick to religions from neighbors.

Monarchy sometimes could be good, but lately I found out that I need Monarchy a bit later then I thought (you can get very far with size 6/5 happy cap, but it gets eventually important to have ways to improve growth).

Interesting gambit is for Feudalism with protective leader if you can capitalize on the advantage against some weaker AI which fields mostly archers.

 

[ManiaMuse]

Absolute Zero did alright taking alphabet to stir up some wars in his HC deity game.

 

[babar]

I think AIs won't prioritize CoL at all if the religion is founded. So I guess it might slow down a separate continent's liberalism pace a bit.