Orbis 0.30 workshop

[thursday]

I actually agree pretty strongly with Ahwaric on this one. OO is rarely a religion I choose because it's focus on naval combat is incredibly specific. It doesn't synergize particularly well with any civ, so it's always very situational when I do end up taking it. Reworking it into a more flavorful religion with different mechanics would be a step in the right direction for Orbis (not only flavor-wise, but balance- and gameplay-wise as well).

I'm not sure I have any great ideas about what mechanics could be changed. On the economic side, perhaps some sort of bonus could be added for unhappy citizens--maybe beakers? This could reflect revelations from nightmares etc., and might be a benefit provided or enhanced by the asylum building.

Not a great idea. Mostly, I just wanted to let you know that I like the idea of reworking OO as a religion, and to keep pondering on it.

 

[Valkrionn]

So do I, honestly. Demons never felt like a good fit there... And since I'm moving it away from evil (Chaotic instead), it's becoming more glaring to me. Thomas.Bereubeg is working on ReligiousSchisms, so the old units fit for an evil variant of the religion... But the base form? No.

Perfectly happy to help redesign the religion.

 

[Deon]

At last someone is going to remove the octopus-faced guys and undead from a dream-religion (well, more nightmare than dream, but still). I think it needs some more flavor in this direction. I think early invisible units (like D'Tesh scouts) which cause minor unrest/unhappiness in nearest enemy cities or just let you to investigate the city, called "dreamers", would fit the them much better (they could be a special type of "spy" unit, because you have espionage; with additional abilities). Oh, I immediately remembered "dreamers" from Morrowind. Now I want them even more .

Also I would vote to rename "Mind Stapling" (WTH? With staplers?) to Mind Control or Subliminal Infliction/Subliminal Control/Subliminal Influence (you've got the idea) and rename Tower of Complacency (really that good?) to Tower of Dreams/Institute of Dreams.

 

[KrugSmash]

OO could deffinately use some revamps, but I think drown could remain, with a little redoing on how they're formed, and maybe a new look.

Instead of soldiers who are drowned and subsequently reanimated through the use of death magic, they are soldiers held deep beneath the waves, so that the nightmares of danalin overwhelm them, driving them past insanity to a state nearly braindead, only husks of men that are compelled to move on and fight by those who channel danalin's nightmares.

This would fit with the themes of mind and water, and let OO keep its early tech thematic military unit, on par with fawns, soldiers of kilmorph, and diseased corpses.

These drown could then upgrade to lunatics(or a similarly retooled stygian guard), as those few who 'awaken' into their new state of being, and instead of being mindless drones, become actual willing servants, driven by the nightmares that consume them.

Another idea for units is how the nightmares of danalin affect the bodies of those who worship. If Kraken are nightmares made live, surely the most devout followers and channelers of the nightmares may start to exhibit similar physical charactaristics.

Of course that may be a bit much in the new units department. It should be noted that while I don't yet have the skills to create or alter mods, I spend a lot of time dreaming and documenting the mods I will one day make, and among those are an OO devoted civ(Hannah split off from the lanun) similar to what the Sheaim are to Ashen Veil, as well as an OO armageddon.

 

[Imuratep]

For empathizing the mind aspect you could use Illithids. But unlike their D&D companions they are no own species, but the result of the contact with the Octopus Overlords - a form of ascension that makes them more similar to their masters.
For empathizing the chaos aspect you could give enraged units an additional strength bonus granted by an OO only promotion.
The results of an everdreaming society could be emulated this way: During pleasant dreams the Civ has a golden age, while during nightmares the civ is in anarchy. If the civ has a golden age, anarchy or nothing is determined randomly every turn (as the religion is about chaos). The mechanic would work similar to the Perpentach events: Both the pleasant dreams and nightmare event have a 5% chance to occur every turn and trigger a golden age/anarchy that lasts 1-6 turns. The anarchy event also has a certain chance to give the enraged promotion to every unit you possess (as the nightmares turn it insane). The pleasant dreams event on the other hand have a high chance to grant the blessed promotion (which would show that OO is not per se evil).

 

[Kalina]

Nice idea, but anarchy is far worse then golden age is good In fact, if using specialist economy golden age isn't giving you much. Only FoL economy profit from golden age, and elves don't follow octopus overlord usually

 

[Imuratep]

Yes I would prefer to use a reverse golden age for the nightmares, but I don't think it is possible without big efforts. And octopus overlords profit from it too --> Fishing villages, pirate coves etc. But you could also introduce some extra improvements that improve production and commerce (Don't forts, castles etc. do this?)

 

[Ekolite]

I think you are missing the idea of the Overlords in this discussion. Overlords is not all about dreams, and in fact only the Cultists would be classified as ''dreamers'' (could be nice to rename them to that).

Cultists have dreams and so on, in which the Overlords speak to them. The Cultists then go to lengths to follow the demands of the Overlords. This is achieved through mind control of the plebs (Tower of Complacency) and enforced further by the Drowns, mindless creatures that follow their master's every command. The mind control and zombies are presumably required because what sane person would follow the orders of a priest of the overlords out of their own personal choice?

To the followers of the overlords, ''dreaming'' is a sacred practise and as far as the cultists are concerned it is not something that should be available to your average joe. As such, the society in general is enslaved, either by force or by mind control techniques.

I admit that the Overlords could probably do with some small additional trick up their sleaves, but I think drastic overhaul is not in fact required.

 

[Humakty]

Drowns are created in the temples, being literaly drown in the sacred water pools.They're probably partly filled with the sacred waters, which allows for the reanimation. They're reanimated by the power of Danalin, which is partially under control of Mammon. So it's twisted water magic that support their existence, and not death or body.

But that's just the way I explain it. No idea how they transform into stygian guard, though.

 

[Ahwaric]

I think stygian guards are simply drowns possesed by demons. Saverous is just an exepctional stygian guard.

But...
In the lore section, Kael wrote that Mammon has no control over Danalin. Danalin is in slumber and Hastur (Mammon's archangel) tries to control him, but all he achieves is giving danalin nightmares... real nightmares...

You can fit drown & stygian guards here. But I do not think it will fit well (unless we talk about an evil shism - good idea Valkrionn).

1. I do not think Basium cares about undead. But I am certain he cares about demons, even if they use flesh of other creatures instead of their own.

2. Currently the religion, as many people said above, is very military centered and situational. I waould also add - to simillar in some aspects to AV.

So, I want few things:
No demons, and I would prefer no undead either. Drown could stay as insane warriors blessed by danalin/overlords to be able to water walk. But I would prefer to just allow cultists to cast waterwalk and get rid of drowns.

More dreams/nightmares involved.

I like some of the ideas above. Please keep them coming!
No actuall work being done on them now, have to do some things first, plus it is busy in RL too now.

 

[Humakty]

Danalin, while being a gentle god in his natural state, is currently under the shock of having his favoured people, the aifons, exterminated. So his nightmares giving birth to undead or demons ready to exterminate everything seems fitting. Especially if under the influence of some evil god/archangel. Remember he had no love or interest in any other tribe than the aifons, if they all get killed it's only justice in his eyes...

Plus undead/demons are quite nightmarish, in my book.

All religions in FFH give military units, OO isn't an exception. True stygian guards are really powerfull, but asylums are hard to use properly, so it balances all in the end. (having units built with crazyness is quite a drawback) I don't get what makes OO more militaristic than any other religion.

If there are too few demons ingame, what's the point of Order and Kilmorph UUs ?

 

[Ekolite]

I think the overlords also offer great economic bonuses in the form of Asylums and the Tower of Complacency so I would argue against them being a militarilly centred religion, although of course most things eventually feed into fielding a stronger military in some form or other. OO also provides more culture from their temples then other religions iirc.

The only thing I would add to OO is possibly 1 hammer per water tile to increase it's synergy with the ocean. I would perhaps prefer 1 food but that would cause balance issues with an already powerful Lanun.

 

[Deon]

1 Hammer per ocean with a temple seems fine for me, you don't have many oceans usually (note: not coast).

 

[thursday]

Someone put forth the idea of OO giving the option to grant your leader the insane trait (making them similar to perpentach, with his three ever-changing traits). This struck me as a fine idea, and one that fit well with the religion's flavor. This is possibly a direction you could take the religion.

 

[Ekolite]

That would be disastrous as it would totally destroy the unique flavour of Perpentach as a leader.

EDIT: Although if it wasn't for that it would be a pretty neat idea.

 

[thursday]

That would be an unfortunate side-effect, I agree. However, Perp would have the trait from the beginning and would keep it no matter his religion. I still think OO providing some sort of insane-like trait is an idea worth consideration, as it would help move OO away from its current position as a situational, economically barren religion.

 

[Imuratep]

Is it possible to give a trait only for a certain time? If it is adopting overlords could grant a random trait (showing the inspiration the presence of the overlords offers), but sometimes the leader gains an additional negative trait like foolish or weak for a certain time (20% chance for ending every turn) (showing that dreams of the Old Ones can be a heavy burden for the dreamer too).
This way Perpentach would also profit from the religion that fits him best (as the random trait also changes when the insane event triggers) and other leaders could get a glimpse of his trait without destroying his unique flavor.

 

[Vainglory]

A few ideas for OO:

1) Perhaps some events could be made (requiring OO state religion) which represent the Overlords prescence in your territiory.

Requires: OO state religion, coast tile
Text: The fishermenin this area have been plagued by the complete dissapearance of fish or other marine life in the area after one of the fishermen openly spoke against the Overlords.
1) Let the fisherman do as he pleases (lose 1 food in the tile)
2) (Requires 50 gold)Execute this heathen in a grand public ceremony(Gain a hammer on the tile)
3) (Requires Mind Stapling) Torture this man and sacrifice him to the greatest of the Overlords (adds a fish resource)

Requires: OO state religion, city with OO
During a feast celebrating the solstice, many of the feasters were overcome with sleep. When they awoke, they told of their dreams of them visiting vast underwater cities and hideous beasts.
1) These dreams are nothing (no effect)
2) (Requires OO temple in city) Let us adorn the temple with images of this dreamscape
3) (Requires evil) Sacrifice the dreamers to the Overlords! (Lose 1 population, gain drown(or whatever will replace the drown))

The basic idea is to have an interactive religion with the Overlords constantly providing you with oppurtunities. Perhaps event chains could be added surrounding certain cults/cities.

2) Since I just finished playing the Momus scenario, I was hoping a redemption mechanic could be added. Condatis could come to the earth to lead the redeemed OO followers to fight against the rest of the OO world. Probably not a feasible idea, however...

 

[arkham4269]

Ok, new ideas

Octopus Overlords is not a demonic religion, nor necromantic one. It is a religion of Danalin, but twisted by nightmares he dreams influenced by Mammon

Not to sound like a broken record with my desire for a Kahdi like Civ, but this does seem like a way to potentially have something from that Civ. In FF, Kahdi is tempted by an Angel who promises knowledge but is actually Mammon tempting the person down the Dark Side.

Perhaps there could be a OO Hero arcane unit similar to Kahdi that as a certain tech is reached, allows the same sort of choice? It doesn't have to be a good vs. evil choice. Since we are taking dream magic here, is this Hero going to take the 'sane' path towards dreams as a vision quest/shamanistic astral quest or take the 'insane' path towards nightmares?

Obviously this might not go well since there is already Hermiah as a OO arcane Hero but it's an idea.

 

[arkham4269]

Regarding OO, I think there is a fundamental point that is being sort of talked around. To me, the OO is a thinly veiled homage to Cthulhu, Dagon and all that Lovecraftian Elder Gods that bring madness.

So perhaps the biggest thing in thinking of revamping them is to ask, is this what we really want? If so, who takes the place of all those Lovecraftian Elder Gods in Erebus? In some respects, the whole Elder Gods, prior to humanity would seem to imply that the Lizard races would be partial to OO.

I think that the idea to revamp the OO may seem to be in changing the name! I mean come on, octopus means tentacles and that means Cthulhu! Perhaps changing the name is the first step in changing how we perceive the religion. (Funny I should read this thread today since I was just thinking that the middle eastern sound to the music when founding the OO is at odds with the water element/insanity theme. You'd expect something from Delerium or Wumpscut!)

It seems that regardless, the use of dreams means that what ever the OO is called, mind and water mana seems to fit the theme.