Orbis 0.30 workshop

[arkham4269]

On a more fundamental change I'd like to see in 3.0 is some things I've mentioned before in other threads and that is rebellions, vassals and colonies.

First off, I like the Rebellion mod when it isn't set to high. It shouldn't be something that happens to often and should more relate to colonies or cities previously conquered from other Civs. More on that in a bit.

Vassals. I've commented before about the one thing I don't like about the current system is that unless it's changed lately, you can only create vassals out of cities that are separated by a water barrier. I think you should have an option to create vassals anywhere with perhaps a pop-up where you can say, "I want this, this and this city" to be in the new vassal state.

Related to vassal states would be colonies. It seems to me that when you create a vassal from cities you created, it would start with a minor leader of your own Civ like it seems Orbis does now. However, it would also seem that might be altered in two ways. Over time, cities separated by a water obstacle (especially far away) might get cranky over time and might petition to secede. Here it would seem they'd become a new minor Civ different (but probably similar) than the parent.

Secondly, I would think that if you wanted to create a vassal out of cites taken from another Civ, that you'd end up with a minor leader from that Civ. My thinking is that I'd rather totally take over a Civ and THEN create a vassal state out of it rather than almost take out a Major Civ and then make it a vassal. I mean I'd rather deal with a minor leader who owes their throne to me than a defeated leader who is probably scheming to become a major leader again. Plus, sometimes I've noticed if I do make a vassal out of a defeated leader (without taking them out) I can't seem to give back cities I either don't want or would rather have my vassal have.

So in a nutshell I really think the way you choose who gets what cities needs to be revamped.

 

[arkham4269]

Related to the above (especially as it relates to the Rebellion) mod is do all barbarians have to be orcs or lizardmen?

I would think that after the Age of Winter ended, you'd have a lot of different groups that didn't have enough people or a charismatic leader w/vision to achieve becoming a Civ. So I think it would be interesting (if workable) to have human, dwarven and elvish barbs. That way you would have different barb cities founded that could (if the option is flagged I guess) possibly evolve into minor civs w/minor leaders.

Plus I think that the barb cities options gives a lot of power to the Clan. I would think that the above idea would need a small tweak in that their Worldspell would only work on barbs with the orcish trait.

Now I know there are those out there with their SCREAMING machines who can play with 18 Civs on GINOURMOUS maps, but many of us have wimpy systems so we can't play with a lot of Civs so having new Civs come out allows for a bit more color to the game. Plus it seems better to have areas of the map that are hard to get to initially become inhabited by 'somebody' if none of the players get there.

 

[Imuratep]

Darkelven Barbs would be my dream. Finally a use for Veil of Night in MP...

 

[arkham4269]

In regards to build actions, I think a lot of the ideas that came up in the 'minor request' thread should be given some thought for 0.30. It seems to me that there are certain Civs that would want to maximize certain resources over others. It seems obvious to me that the Kuriotates and the Calabim would want to maximize resources while the Scions (or anyone with FoL) would rather focus on improvements.

Plus if one has access to a lot of food resources, I could see wanting to tilt more towards the chance of creating new bonus resources as a way to then trade those for tech or to make cranky neighbors nicer to you. Having more flexibility allows for different game play styles.

Of course I'm sure the AI will be ******** in regards to that. I STILL see the AI having improvements on Mana Nodes late in the game. I mean I could see them building a Fort on it since you can always later raze the fort for cash later but building a cottage on it just seems wasteful.

BTW, any chance the great army/generals system from HoTK can be ported in? I found that building armies allows the players more attack options earlier in the game instead of trying to just pump out massive amount of units (that almost all die) that puts you behind in build buildings and thus hurts you in the long run. With the right general, even 2-3 warriors can be really dangerous!

 

[Valkrionn]

I think Ahwaric made a comment about possibly merging the Commander system from FF... Similar to the HoTK system, I believe, but they didn't know about it when it was written.

 

[Opera]

I'd say that the HoTK system is different enough from the FF one. Better, I'd say

 

[Valkrionn]

I have no idea what the differences are, given that I haven't tried it.

 

[arkham4269]

I'd say that the HoTK system is different enough from the FF one. Better, I'd say

Well one of the main reasons I think the HoTK system is great is from the gaming notes, the mod designers went to great length to ensure the AI used it. From my own experience playing the game, it bears out.

Plus I like being able to create armies/navies since there are times when you need that extra "oomph" - like right now I'm playing Calibim @ war with Scions. I am not going to even try to attack the Scions at sea right now because every ship I lose to their quadremes have a good change of becoming a new Scion ship. However, if I could create a navy fleet with three ships, I'd have a much better chance of smashing their fleet enough that if I lose a ship or two, it's not the end of the world for me.

As I said before, if there has been a problem with Civ is that when two factions of similar size and tech level fight, it's usually just a long protracted draw that accomplishes nothing. With HoTK armies, you have a better chance of having the power necessary to actually do something other than just kill a bunch of each others units and pillage a bunch of improvements.

 

[arstal]

If possible, maybe you guys should change ranged combat to the Wildmana model. It works and doesn't screw up the multiplayer, and it's a lot less micromanagey then what you guys are doing currently.

Regarding OO, I think there is a fundamental point that is being sort of talked around. To me, the OO is a thinly veiled homage to Cthulhu, Dagon and all that Lovecraftian Elder Gods that bring madness.

.

It was also a reference to a website I believe Kael was part of that reviews games. I agree that changing it outright might be a good idea.

 

[Seon]

By the way what was wrong with Kuriotate Jewelers?

And I don't know about removing Drowns. For me, they always symbolized Danalin's deep longing for the return of the Aifons oceans except twisted into their nightmare forms.

And also if you feel out of ideas about OO, just check here http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Dreamlands

 

[Kalina]

As Oribs 0.30 is slowly approaching I have some question whether those thing are intended:

Library of Oghma gives happines from religion. Shouldn't it be scholarship ?
Den of Esus gives Poisoned Blade to units in city. This is Nature II spell and getting it at Mysticism seems a little bit too early. Not only it's making Nature II useless to them, but also is giving them 6/4 hunters at Tracking.
Grove of Cernunnos gives free Subdue Animals only to units build after it and doesn't apply it to earlier units. This is also case with Gates to Agares, Altar of Light, Forge of Nantosuelta and Clock Tower.
Exploring graveyards doesn't end move.
Way of Forests and Way of Earthmother are giving bonuses to improvments, but agnostic civs are unable to research them, so they are weaker with certain improvments.
Grigori can build Altar of Luanntar, but other agnostic civs can't. It might fit flavorwise, but Grigori are less likly to benefit from free XP then Illians or evil Mazatl.
Supplies can't build Archives, but can build Library.
Epic gives +100% GP and one Great Bard point, polluting GP poll.

One more thins - is it possible to include passive training ? It's one of few things I miss in Orbis

 

[Ahwaric]

By the way what was wrong with Kuriotate Jewelers?

The building was added by Kael to empover Kuriotates. As was airship - it does not fit their flavour that much (more luchuirp thing), but was added to ensure they always can have some way of ocean travel.
In orbis, settlemnets work differently and both above are not needed. I am not sure about moving airship where it fits better, but jewelers are just strange.
Why jewelers? Why kuripos are so good at making jewelery? Why not khazad or balseraph?
Same applies to tailor, but here I can see some flavour reason (big cities, and we can see tailor as a symbol of developed crafts).
Also, remeber that there are more jeweles, precious metals & textiles in Orbis than in FfH. So the effects are bigger here, and we need them less.

So for both gameplay & flavour reasons. jewelers were cut. I am tempted to do the same for tailors, but decided to keep them for now.

I hope my explaining makes sense?

And I don't know about removing Drowns. For me, they always symbolized Danalin's deep longing for the return of the Aifons oceans except twisted into their nightmare forms.

Then we should add something mutated & crazied. But why undead? I am not well versed in lovecraftian lore, but it does not seem to me that it involves undead?

And also if you feel out of ideas about OO, just check here http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Dreamlands

Thanks for the link!
Now that I think about it, how about removing both drown & stygian guards, and adding illithids?
Lunatic upgrade
I was thinking of dreamer - a psionic, so in game terms mostly spellcaster. But there are priests already, and lunatic is a dreaming a lot... Illithids may be more unique and interesting, if only I can find/make something that can serve as unit art.

As Oribs 0.30 is slowly approaching I have some question whether those thing are intended:

Make stress on SLOWLY. I just finished merging and art reveiw, still did not touch the music and most of the new stuff. But all unique looking units have unique icons now.
So, it will still take time. I just released beta version to let Opera work on it. If someone really wants to help debugging I can add the link - but it is not really playable regarding OO, mercenaries and civics. And no new civs yet.
So better to wait a bit.
I will try do more coding in ferbruary, but I just can't right now. Actuall, I will probably not post much here in the near future, but will read everything, trust me.
Thanks for allthe suggestions.However...

Grove of Cernunnos gives free Subdue Animals only to units build after it and doesn't apply it to earlier units. This is also case with Gates to Agares, Altar of Light, Forge of Nantosuelta and Clock Tower.

Should I add a mechanics to retroactively getting them? It will discourage purchasing these promotions even more... Also, citadel works the same way, with drill I.

Way of Forests and Way of Earthmother are giving bonuses to improvments, but agnostic civs are unable to research them, so they are weaker with certain improvments.

That is partially to reflect gods blessing. It might be better if the bonuses will either be moved to religion unique tech, or to one that agnostics can research. Currently, they can buy these techs but not research them.

Grigori can build Altar of Luanntar, but other agnostic civs can't. It might fit flavorwise, but Grigori are less likly to benefit from free XP then Illians or evil Mazatl.

It is mostly falvour, and mazatl are not agnostics. I do not see mulcarn's followers trying to call Luonnotar back to the Erebus - he broke compact after all...

Epic gives +100% GP and one Great Bard point, polluting GP poll.

Yeah, it annoys me sometimes. But it was always thsi way in Vanilla/BtS, plus does make sense flavourwise.

One more things - is it possible to include passive training ? It's one of few things I miss in Orbis

I rather do not like it - and it is a pain to get the required code. I prefer current mechanics - late units get xp bonuses from buildings, early ones have a lot of opportunities to earn some.

 

[Seon]

No, but there is a human/frog hybrid creatures that looks a lot like Drowns. There is a certain pool in which people lay in and get impregnated by the froghumans. Kind of similiar to the Drown Creation process.

 

[arkham4269]

That is partially to reflect gods blessing. It might be better if the bonuses will either be moved to religion unique tech, or to one that agnostics can research. Currently, they can buy these techs but not research them.

I just wish there was a way to have those techs not even be able to be researched. I mean I get a great sage but I can't use it for a tech I want instead I 'have' to use it to buy techs like Divination. Sure I could trade it but I'd rather be able to use it toward a tech I can use.

 

[Kalina]

Should I add a mechanics to retroactively getting them? It will discourage purchasing these promotions even more... Also, citadel works the same way, with drill I.

Not really, just wanted to mention that some give promotions to units in city and some give them to units build. I think it's better to give them only to units build

It is mostly falvour, and mazatl are not agnostics. I do not see mulcarn's followers trying to call Luonnotar back to the Erebus - he broke compact after all...

Are you sure ? Can't check this now, but AFAIR evil Mazatl leader is agnostic.

 

[Ahwaric]

No, but there is a human/frog hybrid creatures that looks a lot like Drowns. There is a certain pool in which people lay in and get impregnated by the froghumans. Kind of similiar to the Drown Creation process.

But no undead, right?
And drown making process is... drowning I think, at the temple, using magic during the process.

So I think we should go with something mutated or octopus/human hybrid, with powerfull mind influencing abilities.
OO would have lunatics, priests (with water walking added to the list of spells, by the way I think of allowing all disciples to cast a spell or two) and a new unit, an upgrade of the above.
What do you think?

Not really, just wanted to mention that some give promotions to units in city and some give them to units build. I think it's better to give them only to units build

The ones that are given to units that just visit the city should have short duration, i.e. blood rage, dance of blades. The ones given only to newly build units are permanent.
If there is an exception, I should change that.

Are you sure ? Can't check this now, but AFAIR evil Mazatl leader is agnostic.

Just checked and no agnostics for tlacatl.

 

[arkham4269]

Hey Ahwaric, a few quick questions...

First off, other than the Dao, any idea of whether their will be other Civ's added? At one time there was talk of adding the Ngolome (sp?) and maybe the Jotun. Plus is the Plant civ even in contention or is it something that's probably just going to end up in RIFE. (Is RIFE a modmodmod? )

Many times it has been said that navies in FfH and it's mod sort of suck. I know there have been different mod components that have helped this, but what is the status of this for Orbis? I've always felt that a lot of good work has gone into making a lot of Civ specific graphics but for the most part when it comes to ships, they all look alike. I'm asking because from what I gather (and how I play for that matter) most people don't play with a lot of oceans because the AI sucks so bad to water. It sort of (ahem) torpedoes the Lanun though.

Plus what is your opinion on changing how settlers work? I ask because I've always like the older Civ II/Alpha Centauri system where you could use a settler to add population to an existing city in the same way the Awaken can. Now I can understand that maybe most would rather keep that a sort of Scion specific sort of thing, but often times you need to put cities in areas where they won't grow quickly while you have other cities that just grow and grow. It would be nice to move population from a city on a river on the coast next to some rice to a city in the hills near lots of important resources that grow at snail speed. In fact it's too bad they ditched the Civ II mechanic where you could assign food and/or hammer resources to be semi-permanently traded between cities so a big food producer could ship to a food poor city in exchange for hammers made possible by the population increase of the shipped in food.

Perhaps on could have have a 'colonist' unit that would cost more than a settler but could either act as a settler or add to an existing city. For that matter it might be nice to have access to upgraded settlers like many Civ mods have where this colonist unit when used to found a city has it start with a larger population base which would be nice later in the game.

Lastly, I'm doing a lot of my 'job' as Orbis Court Writer and wondering if there is any sub-forum or website that you tend to use for your lore. I'm looking at things like "The Great Library" and thinking it would be better to change the name to something more fantasy equivalent like "The Library of Kyrolin" or something. While I have no trouble making stuff up, I'd rather build on the work people have already put in for continuity sake.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hey Ahwaric, a few quick questions...

First off, other than the Dao, any idea of whether their will be other Civ's added? At one time there was talk of adding the Ngolome (sp?) and maybe the Jotun. Plus is the Plant civ even in contention or is it something that's probably just going to end up in RIFE. (Is RIFE a modmodmod? )

RifE WAS a modmodmod, but based on FF not Orbis.

Just remember that Ahwaric has stolen somethings from us as well, though not as much... That may change soon thanks to Grey Fox.

Edit: To be clear, this comment was mostly intended to say that Grey Fox is working on something awesome. He'll be releasing it as a BtS modcomp pretty much at the same time RifE releases, too, so it should be easy to merge.

 

[arkham4269]

RifE WAS a modmodmod, but based on FF not Orbis.

Just remember that Ahwaric has stolen somethings from us as well, though not as much... That may change soon thanks to Grey Fox.

Oh I don't doubt it. I used to play FF a lot but as I've mentioned before it got to the point where it was hard to keep track of which game I was playing when discussing things on different forum.s

I've noticed that this happens from time to time where we'll be talking about some mechanic and realized we're talking different mods. That's why I wanted to get Ahwaric's take on what he sees on the horizon for Orbis. I might be thinking of stuff intended for FF and not Orbis.

 

[arkham4269]

Have some a question for everyone regarding the Kuriotates' Airship. First off, I don't like the name and have always felt that the Mechanos blimp should be called an airship.

However while I can see how having a problem where they might not have a city on the coast causes a problem for building ships, my question is why doesn't every race build airships? I mean being able to move lots of troops over land barriers such as mountain ranges or terrain that will slow them down seems like a viable reason to build them.

Plus, since they have some nice abilities Galleons don't have, I think they might need a second tech to make them work. Because right now all you need is a resource and square rigging; the same as what it takes to build a regular galleon. Well, what makes them fly? Are they enchanted in the same manner as the Arcane Barque? If so, shouldn't then the airship also require sorcery?

UPDATE: Another thing I've found in the Civlopedia that seems a bit off is in the description of the Angel of Death. The strategy says it has the Reaper promotion and attacking cities cause that city to lose 1 population. However in the Special Abilities, it is said to have the Vile Touch. In checking, I can't find a Reaper promotion. Is this something it had and was taken out or something that is going to be added and hasn't yet? Plus, if the Vile Touch is what the Angel of Death has, when attacking a city and/or stack, does the Vile Touch have a chance of making every enemy unit withered or just ones the unit that is attacked and escapes rather than being killed.