Orbis 0.30 workshop

[Ahwaric]

30% chance for Crazed spawning additional promotions is too much. Held will be a pain all on it's own. Knock it down to 20% and possibly even lower.

As imuratep said, it is just for one turn. And 30% is required to get sets of promotions, not just one. If anything, I will increase the chance a bit.
But you might have a point, held will cripple the stacks (as some members will sometimes become held), and that will not be good for the AI. So held may need replacement.

I like the idea of waxing - waning power though. Wonder if they could be made mutually exclusive?

It is possible, but I am not sure we should use the direct opposites for crazed. I prefer to get interesting combinations of good and bad effects, i.e. having blitz but weak. Though I agree, strength of the deep & weak at once seems strange.
The whole mechanics is not set in stone, and it is easy to change the promotions (in fact, it is xml only, I have rewritten some tags). So, if you have any proposals for the promotions linked to crazied, feel free to post them. But remeber, that not all should be good (nor bad).

Interesting that both you and Kael consider mad warriors to be unpredictable. I would be more in favor of a system like Balseraphs Freak were you don't know what you'll get, but what you get doesn't change further.

There are different kinds of madness. You can get a weird but predictable individual (freak), or one that is not predictable, as it depends on what phase it is (bipolar) or the reasons are strange, chaotic or even not relevant for normal people (new crazied). The old crazied/mad was just to make unit uncontrollable by the player.

I get that you want strength of the deep to be water associated but random water walking? Won't the AI start drowning it's units that way? Especially if the unit can suddenly get held?

Water walking is only required to enter the water tile. If units looses the ability, it will be teelported to the closest visible land tile. No drowning on Erebus. Ever...

Forts sounds just what I was hoping for now. Very interesting to see what the AI will do.

For now, they just claim the fort and leave it empty in early game. In late game they tend to guard them.

The unreligious civs still miss out on the boosts to improvements granted by FoL and RoK techs.

The changelog is not completed, I will be working on 0.30 for some time. So it will probably be changed, too - just want to get some feedback on changes that are in and adjust if necessary.

Too bad we can't put in unfavored terrain, especially for the "terraforming" civs. Would make sense that they got extra poor yields from certain terrain.

Why not? I think we can, and if not, it can be changed. But I think we should make them less able in combat if the terrain is bad for them, i.e. -25% combat for lizards in snow & tundra, or -50% for frostlings in desert (or even grassland)

Now they are powerful units and they crazed promotion is actually one you want to keep.

That was the intention. The mental clarity should be an upgrade - no negative ones, maybe different promotions, more suited for a priest. But I no longer consider crazed a negative promotion - just weird.

Edit: What do you think of my proposals regarding Overlord priests?

By the way, should we still call OO the Octopus Overlords? Or simply Old Ones?

 

[Wauthan]

By the way, should we still call OO the Octopus Overlords? Or simply Old Ones?

Obduro Octomanus? Orbis Oblivio? Odio Oculus? Octonarus Ophic? Does it have to abbreviate to OO?

 

[Valkrionn]

By the way, should we still call OO the Octopus Overlords? Or simply Old Ones?

I'd go with Old Ones. Leaves it open to various interpretations, harder to pin down... Which is a good thing for OO.

Also, on the agnostic split... I take it you reworked Opera's code? Any chance I could get the source for it? Wanting to do that myself, but I've been busy on other things. The source code for which you'd easily be able to get if you join the RifE group, as an SVN link is in our team forum.

 

[Wauthan]

I like the idea that "OO" leaves the axis of Evil. Madness, sorrow, nightmares indeed but also rest, dreams, inspiration. Search for new hope to replace that which was lost. The ocean is a source of food, rain and life. Greed is the defense of the self, search for power to further oneself and control ones own destiny.

I Like the concept of a duality in the religion where a despairing sea god is struggling against the whispered promises of an arch-angel of greed. Nothing inheritly evil in that context. Mammon must have a long term plan after all if he's ready to put his strongest asset on a such full time assignment. I'm sure pearls are involved in this somehow. Pearl affinity? Nah...

Too much to ask for but a late game choice for the OO founder might be interesting. Push to follow Mammon or try to rouse the sleeping god? Power of belief is strong after all. Meh! When I think about it that does sound more like the concept for a scenario.

 

[Imuratep]

By the way, should we still call OO the Octopus Overlords? Or simply Old Ones?

Old Ones is a neutral term that does imply neither good nor evil. It's kinda vague what is a good thing for a power that noone really understands not even its followers. That's why I like it much better than Octopus Overlords as both terms determine them too strongly.

But you might have a point, held will cripple the stacks (as some members will sometimes become held), and that will not be good for the AI. So held may need replacement.

Use charmed as the unit can move but cannot attack, but can use spells. Also fits well (as the consequences of a dream/nightmare). You also could create a new promotion that has both a positive and a negative effect.
Lost in reverie:
Cannot attack. Can still move and cast spells. -20% spell resistance both for the unit and for your enemies

It is possible, but I am not sure we should use the direct opposites for crazed. I prefer to get interesting combinations of good and bad effects, i.e. having blitz but weak. Though I agree, strength of the deep & weak at once seems strange.

Use another term for weak that is functionally identical, but does not contradict with strength of the deep. Something like "unnatural convulsions". Your body might be strengthened by the power of the Old Ones but you don't yet have the power to control it fully.

Edit: What do you think of my proposals regarding Overlord priests?

I might be blind but where is your suggestion regarding OO priests?

 

[esvath]

0.30 changelog
Svartalfar
New illusionist art by esvath (old one is now svartalfar archmage)

Hi, dropping by here.

Is it possible to persuade you in using my other reskinned units? Especially the Elohim Archmage? She gets too lonely in my PC

Thanks!

 

[Ahwaric]

Old Ones is a neutral term that does imply neither good nor evil. It's kinda vague what is a good thing for a power that noone really understands not even its followers. That's why I like it much better than Octopus Overlords as both terms determine them too strongly.

Ok then, The Old Ones it is. I did not like the old name, as overlords is very lawfull term, plus I do not think that krakens are the actual rulers
It did not have to be double O name, simply both Old Ones and Octopus Overlords are. Wonder why

Use charmed as the unit can move but cannot attack, but can use spells. Also fits well (as the consequences of a dream/nightmare). You also could create a new promotion that has both a positive and a negative effect.

Good idea with charmed. A very good one! I am not sure about adding another promotion, just marginally different, and usefull for just a few units. Lunatics usually can't cast spells. Will think about it

Use another term for weak that is functionally identical, but does not contradict with strength of the deep. Something like "unnatural convulsions". Your body might be strengthened by the power of the Old Ones but you don't yet have the power to control it fully.

Now that I think about it, does it stand out so much? If not, I may leave it simple (though not entirelly logical ) and keep it as weak... Maybe add some explanation for the strength of the deep.

I might be blind but where is your suggestion regarding OO priests?

I should make my post shorter and easier to read...
Here (copied form earlier post):
Hmm, how about making it two grade:

• grip of insanity - you can attempt to cast it only once. Casting the spell has chance to either give Mental Clarity or crazied/mad (I rather think crazied). The chance of succes will be influenced by priest level. Mental clarity removes crazied if it was present. Mental clarity is permanent, and grants nice random bonuses, plus a set positive bonus.
• mental clarity is one of the requirements to become high priest (but not sure how to code it yet, so I might just drop it if it is too complicated)
• grip of chaos - requires mental clarity, chance to get Avatar of the Old Ones promotion, not sure about the other possibility (if any - another madness chance?)
• spell enabled, and techs required to cast spells are fine I think.

 

[Ahwaric]

I like the idea that "OO" leaves the axis of Evil.

Too much to ask for but a late game choice for the OO founder might be interesting. Push to follow Mammon or try to rouse the sleeping god? Power of belief is strong after all. Meh! When I think about it that does sound more like the concept for a scenario.

Glad you like it
The idea is nice, maybe not just for the founder, but all religion. A schism, and religious war I might work on that later, too much to do right now...

Hi, dropping by here.
Is it possible to persuade you in using my other reskinned units? Especially the Elohim Archmage? She gets too lonely in my PC
Thanks!

Thanks for pointing her out I was not aware that you made so many units. Expect more of them to be added to orbis (not sure which ones now, can't check nifs while at work)

Also, on the agnostic split... I take it you reworked Opera's code? Any chance I could get the source for it? Wanting to do that myself, but I've been busy on other things. The source code for which you'd easily be able to get if you join the RifE group, as an SVN link is in our team forum.

yes, and simplified it a bit. I hope it will work fine. The more I will be happy to share it if anyone is interested. I will post them alter.

By the way guys, now that sidar have their immortal mechanics (described in changelog in second post), few questions:

• should waning still be in? I am tempted to remove it, but not sure about it (just waning, not great people extra yields)
• what else should sidar get? culture enhancements? traps? any other ideas? I will add unique spies, of that I am certain
• should Calabim vampires use Sidar immortality mechanics too? fits the vampire flavour I think

 

[Wauthan]

By the way guys, now that sidar have their immortal mechanics (described in changelog in second post), few questions:

• should waning still be in? I am tempted to remove it, but not sure about it (just waning, not great people extra yields)
• what else should sidar get? culture enhancements? traps? any other ideas? I will add unique spies, that is sure
• should calabim vampires use sdiar immortality mechanics too? fits the vampire flavour I think

As far as I'm concerned you can remove waning. New "partial immortality" ability is very neat. If Calabim vampires get this ability they will be seriously overpowered. Remember that vampires can spread their promotion around, and they can level up without risking the unit. Your suggestion would mean that I would simply nom my population until I get a stack of immortal units. Keep the vampires as they are now. Hard to kill but not immortal. As for other Sidar features...

Well they really should dislike haunted lands no? Seems like a logical thing that each haunted tile around a city cross creates 1 unhappy. Perhaps to counter this weakness they get access to the Patrian Artifacts resource (possibly renamed Historical Artifact)? As you can tell I want to give Sidar and Scions further reasons to turn against each other.

 

[Wauthan]

Another thing that I've been thinking about. You know those odd Ancient Tower improvements? Instead of having that convert into a Keep after 120 turns, perhaps the a Sidar worker can build a Sentinel Tower on that tile instead? Allows units to Garrison like in the new fort mechanic but this is for Mages or Recon units instead.

So it's like a fortified ancient tower of mysterious origin. And it's full of ninjas and wizards. Top that Scions!

 

[Wauthan]

And since I'm posting. The Illians really ought to be able to build either a camp or a pasture on the penguin resource. Amusing and delicious + you don't feel like you just lost a tile when the event hits.

 

[Imuratep]

Hmm, how about making it two grade:

• grip of insanity - you can attempt to cast it only once. Casting the spell has chance to either give Mental Clarity or crazied/mad (I rather think crazied). The chance of succes will be influenced by priest level. Mental clarity removes crazied if it was present. Mental clarity is permanent, and grants nice random bonuses, plus a set positive bonus.
• mental clarity is one of the requirements to become high priest (but not sure how to code it yet, so I might just drop it if it is too complicated)
• grip of chaos - requires mental clarity, chance to get Avatar of the Old Ones promotion, not sure about the other possibility (if any - another madness chance?)
• spell enabled, and techs required to cast spells are fine I think.

That's awsome. Especially grip of insanity. I am looking forward to using this mechanic. For grip of chaos I think just mutating the unit independently of the mutated promotion should be cool, flavourful and easy to do.
By the way I would change mutate. Add some slightly negative promotions to the list (as I have the feeling there are only weak, diseased and plagued since crazed and enraged were removed from the mutated list, so the chance should be about 90% percent to get nothing negative. And once you have priesthood you only have weak as you can cure diseased and plagued. Mutation should be a gamble, not an almost certain boon).

EDIT: But once I think about it again 50% chance of gaining crazed (negating Mental Clarity that negates Crazed as well) should be the most elegant way to do it. As long as you have "Mental Clarity" you can cast Grip of Chaos. If you lose mental clarity you lose 5 XP, if you keep mental clarity you gain 5 XP, if you gain Avatar of the Old Ones you gain 5 additional XP.

Added level dependent immortality to all units with shaded ptromotion - 5% per level, capped at 95%

That one is great. Makes them much more unique than before.
Edit: Once I think about the mechanic again I see a problem: It's purely a war mechanic. Except in war you don't have anything from being immortal. But the Sidar seem to have the goal to stay isolated in their own lands to research hidden secrets what is the opposite of leading wars.

 

[arstal]

And since I'm posting. The Illians really ought to be able to build either a camp or a pasture on the penguin resource. Amusing and delicious + you don't feel like you just lost a tile when the event hits.

I'd suggest also giving a Dire Penguin unit with animal handling or commune with nature.

STR 6 resistance to cold.

There are graphics from AoW2 for dire penguins, and some fun sounds.

 

[arkham4269]

[*]grip of insanity - you can attempt to cast it only once. Casting the spell has chance to either give Mental Clarity or crazied/mad (I rather think crazied). The chance of succes will be influenced by priest level. Mental clarity removes crazied if it was present. Mental clarity is permanent, and grants nice random bonuses, plus a set positive bonus.

Does this mean there needs to be a new special terrain feature: the Cliffs of Insanity?

 

[arkham4269]

Does anyone know why they took out the very handy ability in Civ II where you'd build a unit in a big food producing city and send it to some city that didn't have much (like in the mountains) and once there it would create a connection where there would be a food for hammers trade?

This was nice when you had some city on the grasslands/plains, by a river and so could really get a lot of food but you'd have 'mining' cities that couldn't take advantage of all the potential resources because it couldn't get enough population due to food scarcity.

While having 'super-cities' is nice, there are times when I'd like to limit the size of certain cities (to reduce for example) as well as to boost the populations of other cities, often for strategic reasons like to enhance/resist culture bombing.

 

[Breez]

0.30 changelog
Road movement enhancements no longer linear

Crazed is now a different promotion (old one merged with mad, now not only used by Alcinus)
Crazed randomly grants following promotions (30% chance each): blitz, morale, dance of blades, strength of the deep, weak, held
All promotions granted by crazied will stay for just 1 turn, next turn the set is regenerated
If you got blitz by any other means, it is still permanent (no risk of loosing it)
New promotion - strength of the deep: +2 attack strength, +1 defense, water walking, amphibious

I have to agree Held is not a good choice unless there is a way to make the AI immune to it, even then would be very annoying to play with. Currently Crazed is a bad promo I hate getting on my recon, your changes actually look to make crazed a GOD thing to get via mutation etc.

Sidar
Added shaded promotion - sidar "racial" promotion, +20% death resistance, +10% against undead
All recon units with shaded promotion can now use sever soul ability
removed divided soul unit (was identical to hunter save for sever soul ability)
Added level dependent immortality to all units with shaded ptromotion - 5% per level, capped at 95%

Now THAT looks interesting

Tlacatl (formelly known as Mazatl - by the way, did you know that 'Mazatl' means 'deer' and 'Cualli' means 'good'?)
Removed jungledwelling tech (was hidden, lizard only)
Removed trails
Removed lizard shaper (normal worker instead, still can plant jungle)
Will slowly change climate to tropical (turns all terrain except wetland to grassland, forest to jungle)

I like those changes

 

[Breez]

As far as I'm concerned you can remove waning. New "partial immortality" ability is very neat. If Calabim vampires get this ability they will be seriously overpowered. Remember that vampires can spread their promotion around, and they can level up without risking the unit. Your suggestion would mean that I would simply nom my population until I get a stack of immortal units. Keep the vampires as they are now. Hard to kill but not immortal.

I agree

 

[Ahwaric]

Once I think about the mechanic again I see a problem: It's purely a war mechanic.

I think they need more - this time related to arts & sciences. Ideas welcomed
Also, please note that the immortality applies to all units - including settlers & workers (well just 5% for settler, but still)

I'd suggest also giving a Dire Penguin unit with animal handling or commune with nature.
STR 6 resistance to cold.
There are graphics from AoW2 for dire penguins, and some fun sounds.

Was thsi graphics converted to Civ IV? If not, (I thought AoW uses different game engine) I can't use it. But otherwise, please posta link

Does this mean there needs to be a new special terrain feature: the Cliffs of Insanity?

Does anyone know why they took out the very handy ability in Civ II where you'd build a unit in a big food producing city and send it to some city that didn't have much (like in the mountains) and once there it would create a connection where there would be a food for hammers trade?

No idea. There is a modcomp around that deal with it, but it is not finished I think, so I will not add it for now. But I miss that ability too.

I have to agree Held is not a good choice unless there is a way to make the AI immune to it, even then would be very annoying to play with. Currently Crazed is a bad promo I hate getting on my recon, your changes actually look to make crazed a GOD thing to get via mutation etc.

Held changed to charmed. If you think crazed is a god thing, please propose an idea how to nerf it - i.e. what set of promotions should it have. I want it to be mixed blessing, so both positive & negative should be in.

Sorry for being silent... But finally, I have time to work 0.30. Doing a lot of coding now
I am not sure if I will update the now as I am quite sleepy, plus I do not plan to disclose all details on new civs just yet, but please take a look at Dao
I know I should not probably do it as 0.30 is still miles away from being finished, but I want you to stay tuned. And give feedback

 

[Valkrionn]

Hope you don't mind if I steal the Dao... Will keep myself from making changes this time. Plus, they would work nicely with a feature I'm adding, which you know about.

As for the food trade... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163657

 

[lemonjelly]

I like that teaser I really, really like that teaser The Dao could become my 2nd favourite civ, because nothing can replace the Amurites