Orbis 0.30 workshop

[arstal]

Well, I know AOW2 units are used in base mod, as well as Kohan 2, so I know someone could do it.

I don't know where to find it. I just loved the idea of the unit. Back in the day anything we got the dire penguin we'd build doomstacks of them.

 

[Ahwaric]

Hope you don't mind if I steal the Dao... Will keep myself from making changes this time. Plus, they would work nicely with a feature I'm adding, which you know about.

I expected you to come here to steal Dao the moment I release them. Anything to keep people from playing Orbis...
But who am I to forbid you doing this? I will try to convince myself that it means they are good

But seriously, I ask for two things this time. First, wait a bit with that. I will probably expand them with a patches according to feedback, and waiting would save you some trouble.
Second, I want "made for Orbis" stamped on them. Everywhere. I just do not want to read again: Mechanos are nice addition of Rife. I heard they were added to Orbis, too."
(well, second one is half-serious, and I know you gave me credit when adding Mechanos I just miss popularity... )

I like that teaser I really, really like that teaser The Dao could become my 2nd favourite civ, because nothing can replace the Amurites

Thanks, I hope not to disappoint you. But wait till you play them...

Well, I know AOW2 units are used in base mod, as well as Kohan 2, so I know someone could do it.
I don't know where to find it. I just loved the idea of the unit. Back in the day anything we got the dire penguin we'd build doomstacks of them.

No AoW units are used in FfH. AoW is 2D, and Civ IV is 3D so it is simply impossible. Some units might look like AoW ones, but that is just it.
Sorry. I can't help.
Also, it would be more of an eastern egg addition, so they would not be common. No stacks of doom then...

 

[Valkrionn]

I expected you to come here to steal Dao the moment I release them. Anything to keep people from playing Orbis...
But who am I to forbid you doing this? I will try to convince myself that it means they are good

But seriously, I ask for two things this time. First, wait a bit with that. I will probably expand them with a patches according to feedback, and waiting would save you some trouble.
Second, I want "made for Orbis" stamped on them. Everywhere. I just do not want to read again: Mechanos are nice addition of Rife. I heard they were added to Orbis, too."
(well, second one is half-serious, and I know you gave me credit when adding Mechanos I just miss popularity... )

Hehe, that's perfectly understandable. They can go in 2.0 then, along with at least one other civ, possibly 2, and a major game feature.

 

[arkham4269]

I like that teaser I really, really like that teaser The Dao could become my 2nd favourite civ, because nothing can replace the Amurites

What did I tell you? So many of us just want access to those Asian graphics in our game!

 

[Ahwaric]

What did I tell you? So many of us just want access to those Asian graphics in our game!

You were right...

A quick question:
I am currently adding unit art to Dao. Archers & melee lines are chinese, recon & mounted mongolian.
I have tier 4 mostly open, so the question is - should samurai graphics be in? As Dao immortal/phalanx. Not sure it fits the rest, but might be good to include it...

 

[arkham4269]

You were right...

A quick question - I am currently adding art to Dao. Archers & melee are chinese, recon & mounted mongolian.

I have tier 4 mostly open, so the question is - should samurai graphics be in? As Dao immortal/phalanx. Not sure it fits the rest, but might be good to include it...

Well ever since I saw the movie "Ran" I've always wanted to have my archers have those back-flags like the ones your goblin archers do.

I would think for phalanx, maybe some of those naginata type untis from HoTK. For the immortals, it depends. As much as the name implies some samurai in full regalia, I would think some type of snappy dressed swordsmen would fit the Dao better. I mean Asian literature is filled with the single warrior, simply dressed, who goes forth and kicks ass because of how well in touch with everything he is; I mean Lone Wolf kills pretty much everyone of note in Japan! Since Immortals tend to be single unit graphics anyway, I would think some of the Army commander graphics from HoTK would work, especially since there are a LOT to choose from.

If you don't plan to ever go back and do another Asian Civ, I would recommend the Korean Turtle Ship and perhaps the Hwacha as a Dao ironclad and cannon replacement. I'm sure there are plenty of graphics out there for junks and the galleon replacement (whose Asian name escapes me)

 

[Ahwaric]

Well ever since I saw the movie "Ran" I've always wanted to have my archers have those back-flags like the ones your goblin archers do.
I would think for phalanx, maybe some of those naginata type untis from HoTK. For the immortals, it depends. As much as the name implies some samurai in full regalia, I would think some type of snappy dressed swordsmen would fit the Dao better.

I forgot about the flags!
How about standard samurais as Dao phalanx, but with flags on their backs. I do not think the falgs are good for the archers...
I would be tempted to add the falgs for knights too, but already decided to go with the mongollian units (mongolian mounted swordsman from warlords scenarios|for the knight). Nothing stops me from giving them some kind of wings or even flags, just not sure it fits.
For immortal, I think I will add one of HoTK heroes, one with green dress and spear - just need to rebone him to phalanx and give him a nice shield (or should I skip the shield?)

If you don't plan to ever go back and do another Asian Civ, I would recommend the Korean Turtle Ship and perhaps the Hwacha as a Dao ironclad and cannon replacement. I'm sure there are plenty of graphics out there for junks and the galleon replacement (whose Asian name escapes me)

For now I do not plan more asian civs, and already decided that chinese hand cannon & hwacha will be in as unique units for Dao. But will try to add some nice ships models

As this is an art post, one more thing.
I am not content with doa howitzer art. First, it is not howitzer. Second, it is just medieval cannon - does not fit mechanos that well.
Designing the unit, I thought of vinci steam cannon from rise of legends. If you did not play that game, here is concept art for the cannon: http://rol.heavengames.com/gallery/...Name=rol-concept-art2&id=vinci_steam_cannon_a
So, I want a change. How about the attached unit? I quite like it, but some of you might find it too modern, so decided to ask first.
Also, take look at the copters - would you accept any of them in game as mechanos airship replacement?
I have choosen the ones that fits mechanos the best IMHO, plus I can do some repainting, but the shape will not change. So please, tell me what you think.

 

[Wauthan]

The problem that Mechanos can not escape is that they are steampunk in a fantasy setting. It's simply hard to suspend disbelief when "real" units go up against what should be easy opposition. After all there's not much a medieval knight should be able to do against heavily fortified steam powered armored tanks.

Against demons and other units that lack a non-fictional counterpart it works a bit better. After all we don't know just how unnatural a demon is. Perhaps it can rip through inches of steel plate with little effort. So it's the mix that creates the issue. If a knight can take down a balrog, then how come a balrog is capable of taking out a tank?

It's the CIV2 issue with pitchfork wielding militia being able to take out carrier ships. "Got to know where to stick 'em!"

Sadly, this is not an issue you can do much about. I would recommend that you keep using the units models that works with your concept. There's simply no art available that would come together to create a plausible setting. After all we are able to build full plate cavalry without access to iron (steel) which in a sense means they are using some other metal instead (not even bronze). But we can't have four different textures for the same unit just to indicate what material that went into arms and armor.

Same annoyance with the new sand worm. It's simply too associated with Dune for me to work with Orbis. It's like having Mechanos being able to build AT-AT Walkers. Plausible, but not very appropriate. But there's not any other sand worm graphics available.

 

[Ahwaric]

Well, I am not sure I like current snad worms at all.

They often become stucked in tiny patches of desert, are really strong so it is hard to get rid of them, and the art is far from perfect... I think I might get rid of them.

Thanks for the input on Mechanos - I think I will use some of these units, but will try to make them more "steampunkish", at least change the colour.

Regarding the steampunk in fantasy setting:
I think of Mechanos as Leonardo da Vinci concepts that taken shape, with an addition of fantasy elements (refined mana). So they are more alternate XV-XVI century, than XIX. Their toys are not that high tech. It is mostly steam power and gunpowder, and not very efficient ones, while still superior to standard counterparts.
Also, one common way of dealing with the balance of forces, is that higher performance of steapunk weapons is balanced by the fact they are quite rare - so traditional units win by sheer numbers.
The above problem is also the reason why Mechanos get most of their stuff late in game - to not overshadow everyone when they have only swordsmen. It is more belivable that knights in shiny armor defeat musket infantry, than the same thing done by light horsemen without armor & stirrups.
Good plate armor could stop bullets even in XVII century. Which was proved by victories of heavy cavalry over more numerous musketmen.

 

[Hankc]

Regarding the units above, I think they could work if reskinned. However, I would personaly prefer to see the ornithopter from Dunewars reskinned to something steampunkier, instead of the proposed units. 'thopters just feels more fitting in a steampunk setting imho.

 

[moshi]

They often become stucked in tiny patches of desert, are really strong so it is hard to get rid of them, and the art is far from perfect... I think I might get rid of them.

get rid of sandworms and bring back giant spiders, it's been forever since i've seen one...

Thanks for the input on Mechanos

i assume you saw my post in the bug report thread and have been too busy on other stuff to reply, but the mechano's general mid-game strategy and prefered tech path could use some improvement: to quote myself from that thread:

does the AI mechnos know how to build refined chaos nodes? it's a big part of their strategy, given many of their units affinity for it and their inability to build mages, yet it seemed like the AI was building 'necromancy' nodes instead... also you may want to review the AI mechnos' research line as well, their playstyle is quite different from the average agnostic Civ and they can become a powerful mid-to-late-game force by beelining steampower--> machinery--> alchemy--> arquebuses, instead the AI had teched up to build knights and marksman but none of their uniquely powerful mechanical units...

 

[Valkrionn]

I forgot about the flags!
How about standard samurais as Dao phalanx, but with flags on their backs. I do not think the falgs are good for the archers...
I would be tempted to add the falgs for knights too, but already decided to go with the mongollian units (mongolian mounted swordsman from warlords scenarios|for the knight). Nothing stops me from giving them some kind of wings or even flags, just not sure it fits.
For immortal, I think I will add one of HoTK heroes, one with green dress and spear - just need to rebone him to phalanx and give him a nice shield (or should I skip the shield?)

For now I do not plan more asian civs, and already decided that chinese hand cannon & hwacha will be in as unique units for Dao. But will try to add some nice ships models

As this is an art post, one more thing.
I am not content with doa howitzer art. First, it is not howitzer. Second, it is just medieval cannon - does not fit mechanos that well.
Designing the unit, I thought of vinci steam cannon from rise of legends. If you did not play that game, here is concept art for the cannon: http://rol.heavengames.com/gallery/...Name=rol-concept-art2&id=vinci_steam_cannon_a
So, I want a change. How about the attached unit? I quite like it, but some of you might find it too modern, so decided to ask first.
Also, take look at the copters - would you accept any of them in game as mechanos airship replacement?
I have choosen the ones that fits mechanos the best IMHO, plus I can do some repainting, but the shape will not change. So please, tell me what you think.

I think they may be too futuristic, but given a good reskin would work.

@HankC - What does the ornithopter look like?

 

[arkham4269]

For immortal, I think I will add one of HoTK heroes, one with green dress and spear - just need to rebone him to phalanx and give him a nice shield (or should I skip the shield?)

Leave out the shield since when one thinks of Asian heroes, they tend to just wield a sword or spear.

For now I do not plan more asian civs, and already decided that chinese hand cannon & hwacha will be in as unique units for Dao. But will try to add some nice ships models

Not sure where you could find the graphic but since (in one respect) that most Asian nations don't have an early history of any sort of deep sea travel (barring the Polynesians of course) perhaps they might have stronger coastal ships but have weaker later ships. Anyway, I found this coastal defense ship that might be a interesting trireme replacement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atakebune

Well I know that there are lots of asian ship models out there. I did find this entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_seal_ships
I would think this might be a good caravel so I guess it's a matter of finding a graphic to fit it.

I am not content with doa howitzer art. First, it is not howitzer. Second, it is just medieval cannon - does not fit mechanos that well.

I like the concept art but I do NOT like any sort of modern thing. In fact I don't like Goliath because it is obviously a modern mecha. Really try to find things that don't look modern. The closest thing I think that looks 'modern' but is still based on an old idea is the ornithopters. Now the Dune War mods have a few of them and while they do look more modern than I'd like, they still are a flying machine with flappy wings! I don't know graphics but I think they could be modified. Hmmm, now that I think on it, they have some Ixian battle machines that might also be altered since the have legs and I think if you are going steampunk machine, having legs is another way to go. (Think that bad Wild, Wild West movie remake.)

Actually the Dune Mod has a lot of interesting graphics that might be fiddled with since a lot of the Fremen still use swords. That and who doesn't like having units that can ride sandworms?

 

[arkham4269]

It is more belivable that knights in shiny armor defeat musket infantry, than the same thing done by light horsemen without armor & stirrups.
Good plate armor could stop bullets even in XVII century. Which was proved by victories of heavy cavalry over more numerous musketmen.

Actually even though the CSA cavalry tended to be better (for various reasons) the Union cavalry really proved that mobility combined with firepower can beat mass infantry. While the Spencer multi-shot might be considered to 'high-tech' anyone who has read the Against the Tide of Years series nows that even a good single shot, bolt action rifle can fire REALLY fast compared to flintlocks or earlier firearms.

Have a bunch of guys on horses makes them mobile and so they can pick the terrain and then use their superior firepower to really hose you. Plus they can disengage easier. So in a lot of repects it isn't the Mechanos infantry you have to worry about, it's their cavalry. Right now, I do think their early cavalry shows this.

Though that does bring up a good point about the steamtank. I don't think it should be able to bombard. I would think with the limitations of the steamtank, that it would be closer to what tanks where in WW I and that would be a infantry support weapon used to attack directly into massed enemy positions. It is a shock weapon designed to breach a line so the infantry can follow in. (This doctrine was kept till the beginning of WW II when obviously Guderian & Rommel proved that with the improvements in speed that the tank could be used independently as a cavalry replacement.) Anyway so i think that the steamtank needs some sort of 'shock' bonus. (I'm not at a computer w/Orbis so I can't look at which promotions this could be.)

 

[Valkrionn]

Not sure where you could find the graphic but since (in one respect) that most Asian nations don't have an early history of any sort of deep sea travel (barring the Polynesians of course) perhaps they might have stronger coastal ships but have weaker later ships. Anyway, I found this coastal defense ship that might be a interesting trireme replacement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atakebune

Well I know that there are lots of asian ship models out there. I did find this entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_seal_ships
I would think this might be a good caravel so I guess it's a matter of finding a graphic to fit it.

Actually, the largest Asian nation had ocean-worthy vessels trading as far as Africa (and perhaps farther, actually reaching the Atlantic) before the Portugese, the earliest European nation to truly venture out. China simply turned isolationist afterwards; It wasn't that they COULDN"T, but that they chose not to.

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually even though the CSA cavalry tended to be better (for various reasons) the Union cavalry really proved that mobility combined with firepower can beat mass infantry. While the Spencer multi-shot might be considered to 'high-tech' anyone who has read the Against the Tide of Years series nows that even a good single shot, bolt action rifle can fire REALLY fast compared to flintlocks or earlier firearms.

Have a bunch of guys on horses makes them mobile and so they can pick the terrain and then use their superior firepower to really hose you. Plus they can disengage easier. So in a lot of repects it isn't the Mechanos infantry you have to worry about, it's their cavalry. Right now, I do think their early cavalry shows this.

Though that does bring up a good point about the steamtank. I don't think it should be able to bombard. I would think with the limitations of the steamtank, that it would be closer to what tanks where in WW I and that would be a infantry support weapon used to attack directly into massed enemy positions. It is a shock weapon designed to breach a line so the infantry can follow in. (This doctrine was kept till the beginning of WW II when obviously Guderian & Rommel proved that with the improvements in speed that the tank could be used independently as a cavalry replacement.) Anyway so i think that the steamtank needs some sort of 'shock' bonus. (I'm not at a computer w/Orbis so I can't look at which promotions this could be.)

Thank you for referencing that series; I love it. Though I prefer the Emberverse series (What happened to the Earth that Nantucket left).

I think that's an interesting point on the steamtank, though I'm not sure if I like it or not yet.

 

[Ahwaric]

Regarding the units above, I think they could work if reskinned. However, I would personaly prefer to see the ornithopter from Dunewars reskinned to something steampunkier, instead of the proposed units. 'thopters just feels more fitting in a steampunk setting imho.

I think they may be too futuristic, but given a good reskin would work.

Check the attached art. (valkrionn, the wings move )
Thopters are listed in changelog a few days already - and I think the model is steampunkish enough

Not sure where you could find the graphic

There are some asian ships. Will atke a look. I think atakabune is one of them.

I like the concept art but I do NOT like any sort of modern thing. In fact I don't like Goliath because it is obviously a modern mecha. Really try to find things that don't look modern.

The problem is, there is no steampunk art. None at all, save from clockwork golem. And I do not want to steal from poor gnomes.

Hmmm, now that I think on it, they have some Ixian battle machines that might also be altered since the have legs and I think if you are going steampunk machine, having legs is another way to go. (Think that bad Wild, Wild West movie remake.)

Yeah, I would love to have a unit moddeled after W,WW spider. However, if I ever seen high tech units, the ones you mentioned are one of those. Can't use them.

Actually the Dune Mod has a lot of interesting graphics that might be fiddled with since a lot of the Fremen still use swords. That and who doesn't like having units that can ride sandworms?

I checked all dune units, but there is plenty of other sword wielding units that I can use so there is no need for fremen. Or sadaukar (that is a space marine model from WH 40K with samurai sword, right?)

 

[Valkrionn]

Check the attached art. (valkrionn, the wings move )
Thopters are listed in changelog a few days already - and I think the model is steampunkish enough

The problem is, there is no steampunk art. None at all, save from clockwork golem. And I do not want to steal from poor gnomes.

I love it. The model is awesome. Though I think I'd prefer it if it was an open carriage, rather than an enclosed cockpit, I think it works.... It's a change I'll most definitely emulate.

On Goliath; I use the clockwork golem art, but would change it if there was something better. I just don't want to use an obvious mecha.

 

[arkham4269]

@HankC - What does the ornithopter look like?

Ornithopters is a Da Vinci design for a flying craft that mimiced a bird in that it flapped it's wings. In the Dune series, the Atredies use them.

Here are some pictures
http://tinyurl.com/yke3bos
http://tinyurl.com/yk8zwou

Here is the ornithopers in Dune Wars
http://tinyurl.com/y9knoyn

Perhaps the laser blast effect could be changed to bullets or canons shots

Now as previously mentioned in regard to flying vessels, if more Civ's get them, the ornithopter would be the 'fighter' type unit and wouldn't have the bomb mission. In looking at zeppelins, I found that the other company buildings airships in Germany was named Pareval. I think that would be a good name for the airship bomber.

 

[arkham4269]

Actually, the largest Asian nation had ocean-worthy vessels trading as far as Africa (and perhaps farther, actually reaching the Atlantic) before the Portugese, the earliest European nation to truly venture out. China simply turned isolationist afterwards; It wasn't that they COULDN"T, but that they chose not to.

Oh yes, I'm well aware of that. However, it does show a tendency towards not being very expansive (at least via sea) - It just might be another way to give the Dao a bit of flavor. Every Civ seems to have something it doesn't do well at and perhaps the Dao would be good on the coasts but later in the game would suffer by having weaker deep-sea ships.

Of course I'm sure they could just do an improvised Arcane Barque by keeping some adepts on board and summon water elementals.

Oh, it's funny I LIVE in the area that the follow series to the Nantucket saga is based in but I'm having a hard time getting through the first few chapters. =[