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Orion's Inquisition Mod

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Mod Components' started by OrionVeteran, Nov 28, 2008.

  1. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    @OrionVet
    To save you some work, I could wrap up some of the simpler stuff about when you can conduct an inquistion and when you cannot. At the moment there are a few escapee conditions. It is possible to conduct an inquisition under pacifism as it stands now for example . If you like, I can catch these conditions by rewriting the following functions:
    CvGameUtils.canTrain()
    CvGameUtils.cannotTrain()
    Conditions would be:
    canTrain: if have state religion AND not pacifism
    cannotTrain: if not have state religion OR pacifism (just an inversion of canTrain)
    "Free religion" would be autmatically caught that way leaving only "Paganism" as an escapee. Ok with you?

    The other condition that I think needs catching is that because inquisitors aren't killed off unless they have conducted an inquistion, they can hang around and possibly conduct inquisitions when they shouldn't if at any point we make some bad AI code. Therefore the proposition is that we make a final catch of the possibility of a rogue inquisition in the function:
    CvGameUtils.doHolyCitySeekAndDestroy()
    where we make one final ask "can we conduct an inquisition?" before we go do it. The inquisition event is always fired from this function so it's a pretty good place to do it. I could unite that question under one function so that it only ever get's answered in one place. So if you are busy on other things I can write, test and submit:
    def CvGameUtils.canTrain()
    def CvGameUtils.cannotTrain()
    def CvGameUtils.doHolyCitySeekAndDestroy()
    def CvGameUtils.canInquisition()

    @Dresdon
    Thanks on the API docs. Question for you if you have got the time. At the moment inquisitors are invisible. This is an obvious exploit because you can use them as spies abroad. To make them visible is it as simple as toggling this tag in the xml?:
    <bInvisible>1</bInvisible>
    and does that mean that inquisitors then are subject to all the rules about open borders etc?

    Cheers.
     
  2. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    Glider,

    You have my blessing for rewriting and testing the following functions: :thumbsup:

    def CvGameUtils.canTrain()
    def CvGameUtils.cannotTrain()
    def CvGameUtils.doHolyCitySeekAndDestroy()
    def CvGameUtils.canInquisition()

    I look forward to seeing the results. :)

    :thanx:

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  3. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    So far been experimenting with the AI side of things. The AI certainly can be encouraged to clean the place out of foreign religions that's for sure! More testing in progress...

    Attached are the functions we were talking about. Testing reveals all ok ;)

    However, the AI will still build holy offices under pacifism. :eek: Would be simple to fix as per canBuild rather than canTrain. Personally I'm not a fan of holy offices not because it's a bad idea (it's a good idea). I'm against it because the AI will waste precious resources at times, building holy offices he won't use. Maybe we should put an option in for that? I'll be running this mod without holy offices, just straight inquisitors.

    So far I like your idea of only one inquisitor at a time for the AI and max three for the player. The AI does not build too many inquisitors this way and it is not difficult to get that inquisitor to target an important city that needs inquisition. It's debatable whether we should allow the AI to pump out the max inquisitors of three if it wants I concede. We can do that but the problem is we would have to add more intelligence to stop the little inquisitor buddies from all heading out to the same city to purge it. The first one there purges it, and the remaining little inquisitors go "huh, that was a waste to move here, where now?"

    Cheers.
     
  4. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    Shouldn't it really be enough to just make ONE holy office? Like a National Wonder type building. After that, allow Inquisitors to be built, possibly in all cities.
     
  5. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    @Ninja
    That could be a good compromise :goodjob:
     
  6. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    History defines the "Holy Office" as "Holy Office Building" or "Branch Office Building" of the Holy Inquisition. For example, in the Mexican inquisition, "The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition was independent of the Catholic Church. There were several branches throughout the kingdom."
    http://hemi.nyu.edu/archive/studentwork/colony/auto/auto_history.html

    Bottom Line: There can be many branches throughout the empire.

    However, I like your national wonder idea. We just need to call it something else. This new wonder should put a Holy Office in every city. Any ideas on what we should name it?

    Respectfully,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  7. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    I have reviewed your proposed changes and think they are all good. The only thing I noticed was that you left out FREE_RELIGION as a condition to prevent the building of an inquisitor in the isInquisitionConditions function.

    Orion Veterran :cool:
     
  8. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    @OrionVet
    Free religion is covered under the "no state religion" catch. If you are in free religion you don't have a state religion and so cannot build because of the latter. However, whatever code I submit, feel free to change it anytime because you are final arbiter for this mod. It's good to have someone doing this Inquistion code who actually has some interest and knowledge about the real history of it.

    Thanks for the hark back to what happens in actual history. Particularly interesting is the history of inquistion in other places than Europe. Excellent.
    Cheers.
     
  9. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    I think Holy Office is a really good name - although it origins in christianity, its name is generic enough to be used for all religions. Other possibilities could be just variations on themes - like Ecclesiastical High Tribunal, Supreme Religious Court, Expurgational Congregation, stuff like that. And how about this real life name: "Archive of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" :D You just can't make that up!!

    Don't recall at the moment... but do the Holy Offices provide any espionage bonus? Could they be made to, under the civics which don't allow inquisitors? To make up for their limited usefulness under those civics...
     
  10. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    Nice idea :goodjob:

    That would mean that the reformed fundamentalist civs that built heaps of holy offices in their theocratic dark ages, now as reformed religious republics at least get a bit of espionage assistance from holy offices to compensate for the ongoing penalties of having built them. This would give a cross pollination system between religious and secular espionage by allowing holy offices to act a bit like security bureau's in espionage benefit. A holy office could contribute say 25% espionage defense bonus (half of a security bureau's) but only a quarter of the espionage points. Just a guess. Unfortunately this leads to other nasty side effects like a tendancy to switch to a state religion just to survive espionage attacks.

    Note: Holy offices as they stand now:
    Hammers = 53 (same as a temple)
    Happiness = +1 (same as a temple)
    Unhealthiness = -1
    Wealth = +2 gold per turn (double what you get from money earned per city with your religion if you have the shrine)

    From that perspective, you could easily say the reverse of what I have been saying, that is holy offices are virtually mandatory to build because of the +2 gold per turn benefit and extra happiness. (maybe back to +1 per turn and no happiness?)

    Cheers.
     
  11. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    Exactly. And it has some basis in history, at least the Spanish Inquisition had a pretty big spy network.
     
  12. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    I also felt that it's a bit... wrong to have it produce money. For my personal mod that I usually play, I changed the +2 :gold: to +2 :espionage: - an inquisition snooping around should do that.

    That it smooths out the curve for espionage buildings is just extra gravy.

    Cheers, LT.
     
  13. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    Yeah that does sound good.

    Security bureau:
    147 hammers (three times a holy office)
    +8 espionage points (four times proposed holy office)
    50% espionage defense (0% for holy office)

    Jail:
    80 hammers
    +4 points espionage points
    +50% espionage multiplier

    Courthouse
    80 hammers
    +2 espionage points
    -50% maintenance

    Palace:
    +4 espionage points

    Holy office proposal:
    53 hammers (same as a temple)
    +2 points espionage
    Happiness = 0
    Unhealthiness = 0
    Wealth = 0 (perhaps +1 maximum to simulate revenue gained but still I think it's uber powered when you compare it to what you get from inter-city trade links)

    Since a holy office is the cheapest espionage building and comes early, +2 espionage points would make me think about building one if I were running a state religion but did not want to inquisit (just wanted the option). However it's not mandatory either because you will be making >10 espionage points from the other buildings of that era, it's just a supplement (+1 gold will make me much more likely to hit the build holy office button!) The AI will build a holy city when it can't think of anything else to build, which will not hurt it if it is getting +2 espionage points per turn from then on. I think we have to drop the happiness and wealth because that is seriously uber powered. +1 unhealthiness is not that big a deal but seems hard to understand without being esoteric.

    If holy offices remain, this is what I think needs to happen:
    1) holy office changes as discussed
    2) holy offices can only be built in organised religion or theocracy (to stop them being over built by the AI) and of course Theology.
    3) holy offices deserve a unique building art (please someone!? I'm graphically impaired)
    4) Holy offices should change name so as to be civ specific:
    Ecclesiastical High Tribunal,
    Supreme Religious Court,
    Expurgational Congregation,
    Archive of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" YEAH YEAH !!!

    Another request is that religious victory condition 4) is relaxed. You can win a religious victory with >80% global influence, no foreign religions in your state but you do not need 100% religion throughout your state just 80%. This covers the situation where a very powerful fundamentalist religious state is doing it's best to spread the dogma but the underlying mechanism of how religion spreads, prevents it spreading to some of the small outlying settlements (practical example 12 out of 14 cities triggers win). Of course those outlyers must not have a foreign religion in them, but must at least be neutral. Doing this means that religious victory will trigger a bit more often and still not be unrealistic. The AI fares better with this slight relaxation as well. In practice, the real number that stops religious victory is the 80% global influence in any case.

    Cheers.
     
  14. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    This is why I added 2 gold peices per turn, per Holy Office:

    History shows that based on medieval and feudal laws, the persoanal property of a condemned person was confiscated, as a way to strengthen Church control. Usually the confiscated property was divided three ways: by the Inquisition members, the church officials, and the state treasury. The Church and state kept strict accounts of the prisoner's incarceration, trial and execution costs. If the value of his confiscated property was not enough to cover these costs, then his heirs had to pay the difference. Records show many women and children were left penniless from such confiscation. The confiscation of property became a lucrative business which Popes and bishops protested against, but did not stop for centuries.

    Bottom Line: The confiscated property of the victims, profited the state treasury.

    Now consider these game costs, which are not cheap:
    1. The number of inquisitors needed to remove all of the non-state religions. It takes a few turns to produce an inquisitor. Just imagine how many more troops could have been produced for combat.
    2. The number of Holy Office branch buildings produced. 53 hammers ties up the a city over several turns. That is production time that could have been used for producing something else.
    3. The destruction of non-state religious buildings. Any cultural benefit from those buildings is lost with a successful inquisition.

    These expenses are offset by the small 2 gold per turn profit that the Holy Office adds to the state treasury. Remember, a religious victory is not cheap, nor is it easy to achieve.

    Side note: I think the name, "Archive of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith," is just what we need for a new Wonder. This Wonder would provide a Holy Office in all cities belonging to the individual who discovers the Wonder first. Of course, this new Wonder would be very expensive.

    Respectfully,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  15. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    @OrionVet
    Right, +2 gold to make a religious victory possible. That is a very good point under standard conditions. It is a big hit to loose a lot of culture in an inquisiton. As it stands, I'd say you have really thought holy offices out very well for human to human contest. I'd be really interested to hear what people think about the counter balances to the positives of building holy offices, the -1 health impact. There is a small chance that it could work in a human to AI contest but is the counter balance enough?

    Still, +2 gold is a heap of gold per turn in the middle ages and it's also guaranteed income too. Problem is I'd be tempted not to build any temples at all, just holy offices and a few monastries and never conduct any inquisitions. That way I get the cash and the culture without having to expend any productivity on temples. Holy offices give the plus one happiness just as a temple would do which obsoletes temples even more I think. For every city that would have had a temple, a holy office is much more compelling at this point except for the -1 health impact. However some civs get the +2 health as a trait benefit so they are way ahead on a holy office strategy I think. Anyway, there are many ways to deal with -1 health and it's not that hard with a bit of luck. You just need one good coastal trading partner with spare fish and clams, and a couple of holy offices would help pay for the importation of these resources initially.

    When Inquisitions is used in other environments as in the Revolutions mod, Inquisitions have other big pay backs for both the AI and the human, because the clean out of religion down to the state religion can be a real game saver to prevent a domino collapse once an important city is verging on revolt. If I were just playing standard BTS, the only real incentive for inquistions appears to be the religious victory. That is contest that is much better played human to human.

    The issue is that the AI simply doesn't know how to win a religious victory in any required depth as you would be well aware. I have been thinking of the religious victory as an incidental off-chance victory condition like a diplomatic win, that finishes a game when it needs to be finished rather than dragging on. It is not a major strategic objective because of the AI handicap with it.

    I'm a bit concerned as well that the motivation to become a pacifist or hippy free religion leader is becoming less and less if my competitors are getting guaranteed +2 gold from holy offices. This is tempered though because of the huge cultural gains to be had under free religion and pacifism and the AI does know how to win a cultural victory at least with some non-trivial sensibility. Also, if holy offices are producing +1 unhealthiness, this does help the late game secular states somewhat relative to the fundamentalists productivity being hindered but it is only a little assistance. There is a possible chance that if we study the late game, the civs that choose to stay fundamentalist might get less of an advantage, if their holy offices are producing a more moderate +1 gold for a very long time since the middle ages.

    It is really hard, to balance civ out without going crazy in the process! :crazyeye: Lots of game time is needed or else we need Firaxis to supply us with the maths equations they used to model the dynamics of this game! If we have computers that don't overheat, we could run a dozen games with and without holy offices to see the effect, all games starting from the same initial conditions. That would be fun, except that my computer overheats!

    At a guess, I think there are two different games evolving in this mod context, human to AI and human to human. I suggest that we put in an option to enable or disable the holy offices requirement. Enable holy offices for human to human religious victory competition and disable holy offices or severely curtail them for human to AI competition.

    The other issue is that we would have to copy the mechanism for removing a holy offices benefits when a civ changes away from a state religion into say pacifism or free religion.

    Cheers.
     
  16. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    Consider the cost of purchasing the Holy Office or an Inquisitor on turn 1 under the Universal Sufferage civic.

    Holy Office: Cost is 1080 Gold!
    Inquisitor: Cost is 720 Gold!

    Thats 1800 Gold to conduct your first inquisition! It would take several turns to save up that kind of money. I really think the Holy office production of only 2 gold is really close to being correct.

    If you have 10 Cities, each with a Holy Office; then the income would be 20 Gold per turn. Using this income only, it would take 36 turns just to pay for one inquisitor and 54 turns to pay for another Holy Office! Assuming a high 70 success rate, Conducting 10 inquisitions to clear out all of the non-state religions in 7 cities, would cost 7,200 Gold for the Inquisitors! 3 of them failed to accomplish their task. Thats 360 turns to pay for the cost of achieving religious unity. However, by that time you will likey have more cities to clean out. So the cost will be even higher. Yet there should come a time late in the game when you do break even and start to profit.

    Last point I want to make is that the AI loves to produce the Holy office, so it will benefit just like a human player does. Yet, I can see your point on building Holy Offices instead of Temples, just to get the gold and not conduct any inquisitions. I will try and think up a way to thwart that strategy or exploit.

    Respectfully,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  17. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    @OrionVet
    I commend you for trying to make a religious victory a serious endgame possibility against the AI like the other victory conditions. This requires vision. I commiserate with you because it is a very big vision and thus difficult to pull off. It is an incidental victory condition to me.

    Of course the AI needs to be taught the strategy of how to win a religious victory for it to work. It is not simple and the AI is crude if not disabled about it. I have no suggestions other than to relax the religious victory conditions down from 80% global influence to say 51-60% (only in human to AI competition). That way you could tone down the strength of the holy office which unbalances the game in other ways, and the AI will occassionally get there using what it does understand, back stabing, warfare, manipulation, indirect threats and dog piling (as well as some inquisiting in this code).

    Personally, 60% global influence is still a very big goal on larger maps and more civs. Even 55%. Anything above 50% is still major. The thing is that secular civs are not counted as religiously influential, so there is a lot of work required to convince some civs not to be secular states anymore and become one with your beliefs. You would have to bribe them, tribute them, trick them or perhaps throw bombs at them. It is very interesting as a human to human exercise no question.

    There is of course a loop hole in the religious victory condition. There is an espionage mission that does not cost much (say 500 esp) that compels a civ to adopt your state religion as their state religion no matter what they were in the past and no matter what they think of you. When I have conducted the mission, I was expecting all hell to break loose when the web of partnerships between civs is broken by a sudden change of one of them to your state religion. However the change only lasts for I think 15-20 turns and does not necessarily cause global mayhem. It actually has more subtle effects surprisingly and is often not worth the expenditure...except for religious victory. However I don't think that the AI will begin doing a lot of automatic spreading of your faith within it's empire during that 15-20 turn window which may make the mission less effective.

    Naturally, the AI does not understand this espionage mission and will not conduct it. You would have to teach it otherwise there is this exploit available to humans. Teaching it is very possible but I think it might require utilising the SDK unless there are functions in the SDK for making espionage modifications in python (haven't seen any)
    Cheers.
     
  18. tsentom1

    tsentom1 Bubble Dragon

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    Not sure if you're interested or if you were even looking for anything like this but I recently made an inquisitorial themed wonder and figured I'd point it your way and post a link in this thread in case anyone using your fantastic mod might be interested:

    Malleus Maleficarum
    Spoiler :

    Also, if you want I can edit/tailor it or even just make a one time "Spanish Inquisition" project that will do an instant clean sweep of your empire of all non-state when built.
     
  19. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    History shows that inquisitions were authorized to prosecute sorcery. Witchcraft or :devil: worship, alleged or real, was treated as any other sort of heresy that was subject to an inquisition trial and execution. I think the Wonder is very cool, just like all of the other Wonders you have created.

    However, the founding of this Wonder could instantly produce a religious victory for the civ who builds it! The clean sweep of all non-state religions is just too powerful. To tone it down, my suggestion is for the Wonder to remove all non-state religions and buildings, from only the city in which the Wonder is built. That's no different from what a single inquisitor can do. Yet, the real advantage of this Wonder would be preventing the spread of all non-state religions into any of your cities throughout your empire. That feature alone makes the Wonder worth producing. Yet, you could plus it back up in a different way. Have the Wonder provide a free State religion Temple in all cities. Free Temples would make the Wonder highly desireable to the lucky Civ who produces it first. I think the Wonder should be available at code of laws and require Theology. That way the Wonder could be useful for a much longer period of time, until it becomes obsolete with the discovery of Liberalism. Lastly, I would like the Wonder to be a desireable build for the AI.

    If you make these changes, I will gladly add it to this mod.

    Sincerely,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  20. tsentom1

    tsentom1 Bubble Dragon

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    Actually, currently it doesn't clean sweep when built. It gradually removes the religions the chance for doing it any specific city on a turn is based on how large your empire is, but this feature can easily be removed entirely or the chance drastically reduced, and like the inquisitor unit it only affects your cities.

    Isolating it to a single city however, is extremely easy for me to do.

    The reason it seems to obsolete quickly is because liberalism is an optional tech (not used for anything besides communism) so technically you can avoid obsoleting the wonder for as long as you want. I saw that it was potentially powerful but also that its bonus might not be desirable. That way you can build it and then have the option of obsoleting it almost immediately if you no longer want the bonus, or keep the wonder to the end of the game and have to give up Liberalism (which unless you were going for the free tech, its main draw is Free Speech and Religion, neither of which (more culture and science religion bonus) you'd want to build the wonder anyway. Later it becomes weighing its benefits vs State Property. The problem is with the AI. I started putting checks for them to delay obsoleting it but it needs to be developed more.

    Making it desirable for the AI is tricky. Offhandedly it's desirable for them because it inherently makes it more difficult for you to win a religious victory (if they're not your state religion), but the AI doesn't know how to judge this or the culture loss and weigh it. Giving the free temples though might do the trick and give them the benefit it needs.

    Whenever I first post a wonder it's always a rough draft and I constantly update them from feedback and your's has been very helpful. Additionally, if you want a very specific modified wonder (or version of this one) I can make one for you. As for the granaries wonder, I can easily make one for you with the XML (like Stonehenge does with monuments), just need to scourer the forums for good art.
     

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